The Quiet Man Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Here's a little teaser for you guys! In the Dollar up last night I got knocked out by Gazza in the following fashion: Gazza raised $2400 in early position - he was sitting with just over $6000. I re-raised all-in for around $5500 with QQ thinking he might have AK or better still AQ. If I get a hand I also like to be aggressive in order to reach final tables - limping around is not my game. I'm probably known as a tight player so most fellow PL's would have put me on JJ QQ KK or AA. In my mind Gazza did a brave call for most of his chips and did indeed have AK. His bravery paid off when the Ace came on the flop. :clap :clap The question is would anyone on this board fold AK in the same circumstances or would everyone take the same gamble? Your honest answers would be appreciated. :tongue2 By the way, I think I would have played the hand exactly like Gazza 8 times out of 10 at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bubbles Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? After putting in 40% of my stack I would say you are commited if someone else re raises you all (so 90% of my stack) with AK. I would call and hope at worse it is a 50/50 call. One question though is what were the blinds at the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? Mr B - I think the blinds were around 300/600 or 400/800! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? First things first, mate.;) :lol :lol :lol Anyway, now I've got that out of my system, I think the whole attraction of AK is in its potential to dominate most hands, and even do well against most premium pairs with a lucky flop. Even if an A drops and its your flopped AA against trip A's there is no real shame in going out that way. That is pre flop. Early on though it can be the ultimate suckout hand, losing to any kind of 'crap', so depending on the circumstances I'll try and see a flop, but if I'm pushed I'd be happy to jump. I have folded AK post flop on many many ocassions. Unlucky mate, but it happens. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bubbles Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? So if he had folded then he would only have 6 x BB or 4.5 x BB left, I think at that stage you have call, as you will/may not have enough chips to bluff a later hand so your then waiting for a good hand to go all in on such as Ak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masterplan Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? i regularly fold AK in the latter stages of mtt's if someone has gone all in before me and i'm not on a blind, theres no reason to risk my chips and call. however once you have chips in, or in the early stages and you need to double up etc. its a very tough hand to fold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Football-Tipper Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? I dont know why I just cann't let em go....I should but I just play em like an idiot :wall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? I think early position, no previous callers and with blinds at a size that only leave me 5-6 more orbits, I would have shoved all-in with AK at that point. I want to chase out anyone holding medium-low pairs and hopefully anyone holding higher cards would be too scared to risk a large part of their stack (I'm assuming here that due to blind size we are getting fairly close to the money?). If someone calls me and has AA, KK then fair play, but I would have ended up going all in at some point in the hand anyway so might as well make it a showdown before the flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? In that particular situation I'd say he was right to call AK, and it was a good call. But you definitely have to be able to fold it preflop. Either because the action indicates you're up against a really big hand, or just because you don't want to take a coinflip. If you have positive expectation in your game you should never take a coinflip on purpose, you need an added reason. Most of the value in AK is in the folding equity, ie you can get a lot of hands to fold knowing you have the 50/50 as a backup should you get an unwanted call, which makes it +EV to push with. But you should only be calling all-ins with AK if you're desperate, in a harsh blind structure, or are getting extra from the pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? its very rare for me to fold ak ,and never before a flop.only aa and kk have got a real advantage over you and anybody holding a ace versus you is in deep trouble, so all those aq aj a10 are at a severe disadvantage (your about 4 to 1 on) all other pps are still about a 50 50 so its always a great hand ,but as always you need to really pound the pot pre flop to get rid of the crappy cards, that should leave you with people with a ace or king ( you have them outkicked ) or a pp that your a evens chance with,you do sometimes get caught by cowboys or rockets but the odds of that are lessened by the fact that you have one of each in your hand.you still get caught now and again, but getting rid of the hands that have 2 outs by betting hard pre flop guards against this well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? instant call - my chips are in as so as you say 'ALL' (forget the 'IN' bit :)) with blinds that big and over a third of his atck in the middle its a no brainer (assuming he wants to win the tourney and not limp into the cash) These are just the sort of coinflips we have been discussing on the earlier thread Damo :cheers Here's a little teaser for you guys! In the Dollar up last night I got knocked out by Gazza in the following fashion: Gazza raised $2400 in early position - he was sitting with just over $6000. I re-raised all-in for around $5500 with QQ thinking he might have AK or better still AQ. If I get a hand I also like to be aggressive in order to reach final tables - limping around is not my game. I'm probably known as a tight player so most fellow PL's would have put me on JJ QQ KK or AA. In my mind Gazza did a brave call for most of his chips and did indeed have AK. His bravery paid off when the Ace came on the flop. :clap :clap The question is would anyone on this board fold AK in the same circumstances or would everyone take the same gamble? Your honest answers would be appreciated. :tongue2 By the way, I think I would have played the hand exactly like Gazza 8 times out of 10 at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? If half my chips were in the pot already I would call your re-raise. But I have folded AK before preflop on a raise that would take me out. ...should have done it yesterday too in Dollar Up... were knocked out by JJ... :cry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philossify Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? IMHO I think in the case of gazza v TQM then its a valid fight and call given the blinds and circumstances. The time to fold AK is when there are multiple hands that looking as though they'll stay in against the AK i.e thers been an early raise of the BB with a couple of followers before the bet gets to you... once theres 4 or more hands staying in for the flop then AK is a much weakened hand... ideally you want your AK to be head to head with one other hand or (even better) to buy the hand before the flop. The big reason for nearly never slow playing AK is that you always want to force out limpers (lows pairs, suited connectors, AQo, AJ...) then if you are against any pair other than AA or KK you have a reasonable shot (50-50?). If you are against any other hand (lets face it we've all seen some especially muppet stayers against AK such as anyone who persistently stays with Ax) then you have a reasonable advantage because you'll win on all those hands that improve neither hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laidbackbloke Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? In that situation given the size of the blinds and with a large portion of my stack already committed to the pot i'd definately go all-in and take my chances. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gazza271 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? interesting post,ooops computer gone mad,see reply below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gazza271 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? In the early stages of games i have quite frequently folded AK, Last night the blinds were getting to a decent amount and the number of remaining players was falling. Quite correct in that after making the raise and you reraising I put you on a large pocket pair but by then with the blinds at that amount I was well committed to the pot and also in my mind the fact no one else was interested meant that most of the A's and K's were probably still in the pack. My other thought was in regard to Mondays MKOP final when i went out in 10th, If i am going to make the latter stages then i want to have chips to fight with and not just limp in, I would rather pass up $6 - $10 for the chane to win/play for $200+ Have been reading these post's with particular interest and welcome any further advice/criticism as i am still learning and have a long way to go before becoming a decent player rather than average. Just sorry it was a PL'er:\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherry009 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? i wish id of fold AK im chip lm chip leader i raise 1500 with blinds 200/400 2 go all in one short stack one with about 2/3 of mine one as AA one as :puke KK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? With the blinds at that size I would have been all in with it for my opening bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelskired Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? After reading and re-reading this thread over the course of this evening, and if i may say it is 1 of the most revealing threads i have seen with regard to peoples thoughts on a hand that has already been played, i think the post that is closest to my thoughts is........... I think early position' date=' no previous callers and with blinds at a size that only leave me 5-6 more orbits, I would have shoved all-in with AK at that point. I want to chase out anyone holding medium-low pairs and hopefully anyone holding higher cards would be too scared to risk a large part of their stack (I'm assuming here that due to blind size we are getting fairly close to the money?). If someone calls me and has AA, KK then fair play, but I would have ended up going all in at some point in the hand anyway so might as well make it a showdown before the flop.[/quote'] Having said that, EVERY! comment on this thread has it's merits due to the fact we ALL play and think differently!(Otherwise we would allways draw!) and different moods/previous hands, games will ALLWAYS influence your attitude towards a hand. Example i am trying to make: if you would have asked me this post's question 2 days ago, i would have expected to lose with FIVE A's on the flop, so may have answered differently to above, Cant say yes or no because, if you ask me now, my feelings are i have a chance of winning with only 1 card on the flop even if it's a 2, because my confidence and attitude is completely diferent to 2 days ago. Conclusion(Thank God!) If you answer this post after winning a tourney/losing to 7/2 o-s, will/would your answer differ to the 1 you have posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 Re: Can you fold AK? Thanks guys for the refreshingly honest answers! :ok I think Cheskired hit it on the nail when he stated: 'EVERY comment on this thread has it's merits due to the fact we ALL play and think differently!(Otherwise we would always draw!) and different moods/previous hands, games will ALWAYS influence your attitude towards a hand.' Some great pointers from some of the Forums 'better players' which was exactly what I was after - I'll try to take the information on board and play accordingly in future. If the same situation arises the Pocket Ladies will be binned swiftly, but only if I'm playing well. I strongly agree with Guesswest with his view that: 'If you have positive expectation in your game you should never take a coinflip on purpose, you need an added reason.' I don't enjoy coin flips, probably because I feel I lose too many after holding the stronger hand pre flop - this is the problem with trying to be a Tight player. Mrmuseman then states another point that I feel should be highlighted: With the blinds at that size I would have been all in with it for my opening bet. If Gazza had gone all in I would have given strong consideration to folding! This is the part I really need to improve on - too many times I just call and hope for the best. The amount of times I put myself out of a tournament with bad play is incredible. Gazza then comes out with the best point of all which is : 'If i am going to make the latter stages then i want to have chips to fight with and not just limp in, I would rather pass up $6 - $10 for the chance to win/play for $200+.' This totally echos my thoughts and justifies the play - we've all played the limping way and ended up spending 3 hours only to narrowly miss out on the money but now most of us realise in order to make the cash then you to be prepared to take a gamble when the situation arises. Once again thanks for the replies, even Mr V's laughing was appreciated. (Ya bassa) :lol I'll be back next week for an indepth analysis of how my AA got knocked out by 27 offsuit. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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