How to play a Flush Draw?

[GaF]

Ok - I've just been knocked out of the PokerStars freeroll very early - and this is the hand that did the damage.....

PokerStars Game #2566776754: Tournament #12338773, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2005/09/13 - 15:07:06 (ET) Table '12338773 14' Seat #9 is the button Seat 1: c()mpiler (1070 in chips) Seat 2: hotprada (1470 in chips) is sitting out Seat 3: Kiernan (1490 in chips) Seat 4: skaterer4 (1320 in chips) Seat 5: Tanya Hide (1470 in chips) is sitting out Seat 6: pl-GaF (1580 in chips) Seat 7: DBDF (2130 in chips) Seat 8: yossemite (1470 in chips) Seat 9: seasider (1460 in chips) is sitting out c()mpiler: posts small blind 10 hotprada: posts big blind 20 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl-GaF [Kc Ac] Kiernan: folds skaterer4: raises 100 to 120 Tanya Hide: folds pl-GaF: calls 120 DBDF: folds yossemite: calls 120 seasider: folds c()mpiler: folds hotprada: folds *** FLOP *** [2h 8c Tc] skaterer4: bets 60 pl-GaF: raises 240 to 300 yossemite: folds skaterer4: raises 900 to 1200 and is all-in pl-GaF: calls 900 *** TURN *** [2h 8c Tc] [Jh] *** RIVER *** [2h 8c Tc Jh] [7h] *** SHOW DOWN *** skaterer4: shows [Ts Th] (three of a kind, Tens) pl-GaF: shows [Kc Ac] (high card Ace) skaterer4 collected 2790 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 2790 | Rake 0 Board [2h 8c Tc Jh 7h] Seat 1: c()mpiler (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 2: hotprada (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 3: Kiernan folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: skaterer4 showed [Ts Th] and won (2790) with three of a kind, Tens Seat 5: Tanya Hide folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: pl-GaF showed [Kc Ac] and lost with high card Ace Seat 7: DBDF folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: yossemite folded on the Flop Seat 9: seasider (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Pretty certain I played it wrong ..... but how should I have played it? Reraised pre flop and call post flop (instead of call pre flop and reraise post flop)? Was I too aggressive with what was essentially A high? Just chucked it into a calculator - Pre flop, I was 46% v 54% underdog (well we probably all know the odds there....) - Post Flop I was 26% to 74% underdog (which surprises me!!) - so knowing his hand now, I was on a hiding to nothing........ What should I have done differently (without the benefit of hindsight?)

[Norfolk Enchance]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw? I find AK is a good raising hand. I would definitely have re-raised pre flop considering its a free roll and the standard is probably not that great. As it turned out he had a decent hand but he could have had any old crap really. I wouldn’t argue against you re-raising on the flop, but I would not call an all in at such an early stage with a flush draw. A lot of people will raise on the flop regardless if they have raised before the flop – they don’t want to show weakness after showing strength with the pre flop raise. Re-raising his bet on the flop rather than calling it gives you more of an idea of where you stand in the hand. The fact that he then went all in over the top suggests he definitely has something and IMO it is not worth risking your tournament on a draw at this stage. Wait for a better opportunity.. I wouldn’t worry too much about the post flop odds – he could just as easily have had an over pair making the odds a lot closer. That’s my thinking anyway

[mrmuzeman]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw? Your smooth call pre flop here was fine, I would have done the same thing. You have position and AKs is a drawing hand. On the flop his bet was very weak indicating a strong hand (played badly) or just a poor player hoping youll fold or someone drawing. Your raise was reasonably strong and he had to have a good hand to call you which often he wouldnt. Also many times he would just call here and check to you if the turn hadnt helped him and you could take a free river card at a big pot. Of course an alternative (and one I would use early in a tourny most likely) would be just to call this very weak bet of 60. He is giving you 7.5/1 odds on hitting your flush and I know and you know this is value for the nut flush draw. If you dont hit on the turn see what he does next and you can get away cheap or draw again if he puts in an equally weak bet. This way you are not jeopardising your entire existence in this tournament on a draw (its hardly ever correct to go out without a made hand in a tourny). However the semi bluff raise you made was an aggressive viable option. Once he goes all in over the top you have to give him credit here for a quality made hand IMO. Expecting set of tens perhaps (easy to say now) but much more likely a big pair such KK or AA. In this spot you know you are more or less at best a 2/1ish shot. The best you can really hope for is QQ which is a very possible call as you have the overcards BUT how you could specifically put him on this is extremely fishy. I think the pot was 1890 to you with 900 to call (but basically calling for the tournament if you lose). So youre basically getting abolsute true odds for your draw if he has a big pair. I notice the blinds were only at 10/20 and you would still have 900 if you fold. This is why I would have folded to that all in. You can still come back wihtout a doubt, you are nowehere near being a short stack at this stage in the tournament. Id fold and wait for a made hand to get my money in on.

[GaF]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw? Cheers Guys - well it's good that you both agree on the important bit - my real mistake seems to be in not being able to put the hand down - looks like the rest could be argued and debated, with pros and cons, but I should have been able to walk away..... As you say Mr M, it was really early and this tourney has a very slow rising blinds structure - time was not an issue....I could afford to walk away..... Oh well - always tomorrow......

[Valiant23]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw? I've wondered what to do in similar circunstances, and right or wrong if I have 2 suited hole cards and only get 2 on the flop as long as I don't have to go all-in I will allow myself to 'pay' for one more card. If I don't get it on the turn and have to 'pay' for the river-I (almost always) fold. I found an article somewhere which says a lot of players get involved in 'the peel'. I'll go and put the link in when I find it. I don't want to misquote it.

[Valiant23]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw? Here you go-same site as the bad beat-o-meter. http://www.pokersavvy.com/article/peelingpartone.html http://www.pokersavvy.com/article/peelingparttwo.html

[tfalbb]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw? Your only mistake I can see was calling pre-flop. Had you gone all-in there, TT would have assumed you had a better pocket pair and probably folded. That was where you gave away the fact that you had a beatable hand. His relatively small raise shows he was dubious anyway.

[meatman]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw? I would do one of three things here 1) before the flop the guy raised before you, give him respect and fold even though you have AK 2) re-raise after him and go all in, put pressure on him if he calls you have AK so every chance but he is more likely to fold, hand over you win. Although as it's so early on in the game probably not worth it 3) call his raise before the flop, you see the flop then he bets 60. I would not have raised here just called, 60 isn't much to pay to see the turn is it? after turn is dealt who knows what would have happend, he probaly bet again. The likely result here would end up me folding after the river after not getting the club. Personally I woudn't have bet all in after the flop but I like that gambling spirit GAF and it had every chance of paying off.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw?

Your only mistake I can see was calling pre-flop. Had you gone all-in there, TT would have assumed you had a better pocket pair and probably folded. That was where you gave away the fact that you had a beatable hand. His relatively small raise shows he was dubious anyway.

Tfalbb - this is not what you should do at all, why you would want to go all in here is beyond me. Youd be in a race situation at best if he called and theres not enough in the pot pre flop to justify an all in, especially with a deep stack. You have position in the hand and the raise is acceptable. Take a flop.

1) before the flop the guy raised before you, give him respect and fold even though you have AK

Meatman - There is NO WAY you are going to fold AKs to a normal raise pre flop. To do this youd have to KNOW he had AA and I cant see how you can. To be fair though your third option is cool. I dont mean to be all this is right and this is wrong, cos in no limit theres lots of different things you can do. But these two examples are not two of them!

[meatman]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw?

Tfalbb - this is not what you should do at all, why you would want to go all in here is beyond me. Youd be in a race situation at best if he called and theres not enough in the pot pre flop to justify an all in, especially with a deep stack. You have position in the hand and the raise is acceptable. Take a flop. Meatman - There is NO WAY you are going to fold AKs to a normal raise pre flop. To do this youd have to KNOW he had AA and I cant see how you can. To be fair though your third option is cool. I dont mean to be all this is right and this is wrong, cos in no limit theres lots of different things you can do. But these two examples are not two of them!

The third option is probably the one I would choose but on my way to 13th position tonight in this event i must have folded AK a couple of times. you may call it bad play (and it probably is) but sometimes I just don't want to get into the pot, one thing you do know is that you won't lose anything.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw? Of course there are situations when you may fold AKs. If someone raised then someone went all in after them, then it was you to act and the stacks were deep - I would fold. Along with a few other circumstances. But not in the circumstance above the raise wasnt even 10% of the stack, could be raising with any number of hands.

[GaF]

Re: How to play a Flush Draw? My main rationale for the post flop raise, rather than a flat call (and cheap card) - is that when I'm drawing like that, it's nice to win the pot there and then - if I had flat called, then the only way I was likely to win the pot was if I made my draw, by raising I wanted to win the pot there and then - whether I made the flush or not. Thanks everyone for your comments - it's always good to see what everyone thinks, and how they would have played it......