At the end of my tether.

[DasBoot]

Let me say first off that I know that I'm not the best player in the world. Heck I'm probably not the best player in my road and I live in a small cul-de-sac! These last couple of months have been a nightmare for me playing poker-wise and I've given up and can't afford to smash any more keyboards. I haven't had a decent cash or run since October when I won $500+ in the Sunday 200k on ipoker. I was a hair's breadth away from winning a GUKPT seat shortly after (got 3 outed on the river) and ever since the Poker God's have not just been laughing at me but literally crushing me into the ground. Money isn't a problem here as I only play $10/$20 mtts, sometimes rebuys and a few sats. On occasion I'll have a spin up and buy-in larger but I'm quite content to try and sat into those events. I play a bit of NLHE or PLO cash but only micro and only for fun and I'm not worried about that. I also play a bit of DON sng but again, just for a change. I just can't catch a break in the MTT's. It's got to the point where I'm not even cashing let alone final tabling. I know pro's don't talk about "luck" but I'm not a pro and I'd like to know where mine has gone! It seems to go like this. I play solid poker at the beginning, slowly but surely building my stack. Don't get into too many big pots but getting paid off when I do have the best hand. It's the middle of the tournys that the problems start. I leave marginal but playable hands alone and see me flop the nuts. I play premium hands strongly and get rivered by an inside straight. I loosen up and see a whole raft of picture cards hit the deck. The maniac who is up and down more times than a bride's nightie I try to steer clear of to only see time and time again that I would have beaten him and knocked him out had I called. When I do eventually make a stand my pair is no good against his AQo. Tonight I woke up with KK called his shove of A10 and you can guess what came on the flop. In the last two days I have lost races in the middle of tourneys no less than five times which would have seen me take the chip lead (or close to) and each time I have had the best of it pre flop. I get crippled- but don't tilt- and then build up my stack again only to see the same thing happen but this time it's Goodnight Vienna. I know all about variance and "donkaments" but this seems to be following the same pattern in every tournament for the last two months. I play at least 3 a night 4/5 times a week and to not even come close to cashing is demoralising. I don't pretend that I play perfect in every single hand or every tournament and I am aware that we focus on the "bad beats" and forget when we get lucky but this is going beyond a joke. I refuse to believe that I'm such a bad player that I'll never win another tournament again but when I do see some of the players who FT I think how the hell are you there? Any advice from anyone out there? Go back to the books? Give it all a break? Keep ploughing through because it's bound to change soon? As I said, the money isn't a factor because I am a recreational player and am not losing more than I can afford to but when your hobby causes your cat to dive for cover you have to think is it for you? Any thought or comments would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: At the end of my tether. I doubt I can offer anything you don't already know, like you just got to ride the variance, keep getting them in ahead and you'll turn the corner etc etc. All I can say is how I deal with it. When the 2/3/4/whatever-outer crashes down on the river, I just remember I have 2 kids who are beautiful, intelligent little souls, and, most importantly, they're healthy. And that's the only thing that matters, to me. Maybe it's corny, but it works for me. Aside from a fleeting snapshot of frustration, I never get annoyed / affected by busting out. Perspective. Keep smiling :ok

[Burnley Joe]

Re: At the end of my tether. We all go through it mate, this week alone some of the calls when your playing an excellent game still shock me, three bets and four bets getting called with absolute crap but they seem to hit, even tonight i cant beleive some of the beats ipoker has given me. But saying that, over the last few night i have still cashed in a few so it varries out When we played in Sheffiled i was saying the same to Hen that for weeks i just could not win a game, then the night before i took down a decent game for about $1100 and then won the omaha (v lucky), but i guess thats were the varience kicks in All i can say mate is, try a game where you normally do well, be it a small field deep stack or even a crapshot all in game, once you get that feeling of cashing again, it will be light a weight lifting, Good luck whatever you decide, but it does happen to us all, if its getting annoying, just take a short break mate

[ooblio]

Re: At the end of my tether. I've pm'd you m8 :ok

[Bart(UK)]

Re: At the end of my tether. Getting a bit late for my brain to digest your post properly or give it a more indepth response that it of course deserves. I would just say for now that taking a break can do wonders for your game. I used to play bowls 6 days a week (up to county level), but always played better after returning from a short break. It seems to refresh and refocus the mind, poker is the same. I've recently gone through circa 3 months downswing myself (hence my drop down to the micros with my challenge to iron out any leaks in my game and to rebuild confidence) and also bubbled several big events (televised Late Night Poker, PBBG, Irish Open, English SH Champ etc), I think a downswing can get self-perpetuating at times where you go into a tournament expecting to get knocked out on a bad beat or to bubble or at least it does with me. I say hang in there (you're too good to fail) and/or take a short break before returning re-energised. I'm also my own streets worse player, but if I can help in any way just give me a shout. Equally if you fancy doing a skype-sweat session sometime, i would value comparing thoughts on how other players approach mtt's, might help us both. Hang in there buddy, you're amongst friends :ok

[heniek31]

Re: At the end of my tether. Few people already know, I went through a dry spell for 9 months. Over that period of time I won few times about $100. I just couldn't figure it out. Nearly always I was ahead when all in, couldn't win a race. I would lose 4 times on one night with AK v AQ and so on. Those 9 months made me stronger than ever. Anyway, when my time came I won 1.5k on 3 consecutive Saturdays. I got use to variance and now I always say to myself, I will not beat that 9 months ever. You are either poker player or you you not. You have to get stack in. By all means, break is a good thing if you feel like it. I have much of respect for you, cause you are a very good player. In my opinion, the most difficult part of poker is a transition from not being able to coupe with bad beat and put one behind you. It might change you to a machine, but hey, it works for me. Some knows that Washman and I talk every night on the phone. We often watch each other and share bad beats and suckouts. We are very similar when it comes to take bad beats on the chin. It's either "oh FFS" in English or "oh FFS, fuk, fuk, fuk off in Polish. And thats it. When we talk again in 30 minutes, we moved on with the rest of MTTs. Like once wise man Washman said: "We play poker to get bad beats". If you can't take them on, you shouldn't be playing. And like Samba said:

Maybe it's corny, but it works for me. Aside from a fleeting snapshot of frustration, I never get annoyed / affected by busting out. Perspective.

I can't stress enough, thats the key. Also, I agree with Haichan about what he said in other tread. There are thousands of Russians flooded sites over last year and you have to get more and more lucky to win anything. They are plain crazy. Those days, when you 3 bet all in to steal are long gone. It's not that you will be called with Ax. You will be called by any two. Literally. Mate, I have seen you playing to many times and I know you will deliver :ok.

[The Quiet Man]

Re: At the end of my tether.

Maybe it's corny, but it works for me. Aside from a fleeting snapshot of frustration, I never get annoyed / affected by busting out. Perspective. Keep smiling :ok

This is the key........if you're a decent player then 7 or 8 times out of 10 you will be ahead when the chips go in but you won't win every time, but that's the way to go out (I think)! :) Stick a note describing the exit hand on the player that put you out.....and if your paths should cross again....:ok (Have a look at the Hand History and look at the hand from the opponents perspective - did he play it right too?) Today could be the day your variance changes and this thread looks a bit premature and daft!:hope:hope:hope TQM

[DrJbug]

Re: At the end of my tether. Have a look at http://www.winningpokerblueprint.com/ Nick Wealthall (That bloke off the telly) Has put together some free videos focussing on mindset issues with some good tips on how to break free of the depressed attitude that comes from a downswing. He talks about his own struggles as he went from someone who made his money playing, to (I think) a 12 month stretch where he was being beaten up. All you need to do his enter your email, but he only spams you when he has another vid out

[Goldenjaguar]

Re: At the end of my tether. Join our skype group, were always railing giving advice to each other during mtts, were mainly donking virgin poker but pop in and ill rail you whilst im playing :) Jag

[teaulc]

Re: At the end of my tether. i had to double check that i hadnt written that post mate,the advice given here already is like gold-dust,take it on board,have a break if need be and you will,i repeat WILL, become a stronger player for it. i know how frustrating it is as do most if not all here who play,but it will change and then you will think to yourself,hey what was all that fuss for. keep your chin up, count to 10 then move on. Al

[ThePokerPad]

Re: At the end of my tether. Some great posts where I pretty much agree with everything that has already been said. I been through this too many times myself as well as it does affect how you play. I usually just take a small break and only play when I really feel like it. I find sometimes its best to get back in via a forum game for instance where the banter and chat are good so you feel good no matter what the result and a win will always boost your confidence back up. Best of luck :D

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: At the end of my tether. Apologies if this post comes across as a bit blunt, and it's almost certainly (given what you said in your post) not what you want to hear, but (assuming you're a long-term winning player) all down to short term variance. And deep down, you know that too.

I haven't had a decent cash or run since October when I won $500+ in the Sunday 200k on ipoker.

I'm sorry, but this is not a decent cash. If $300 profit in a $215 tournament is a decent cash to you, then you're playing out of your bankroll by playing this tournament. Even if you satellited in you still shouldn't be happy with a virtual min-cash. You win money in poker tournaments with occasional top 2/3 finishes, not with consistent min-cashes, that's just the way 99% of prize pools are set up.

ever since the Poker God's have not just been laughing at me but literally crushing me into the ground

Get out of your head that you run bad. There is no such thing as run good or run bad in the long term. In the short term yes, but if you're playing within your bankroll this doesn't matter at all. Play for long enough and you will neither run good or bad, you will win (or lose) the money that your play deserves. If you are able to play more tables (when I'm not being lazy I'll be playing at least 6, maybe up to 12 tables) I would recommend this - the more tournaments you play, the less you will feel the short term variance. Edit : Just scrolled down and see you're playing 12-15 tournaments a week, that really is nothing.

When I do eventually make a stand my pair is no good against his AQo.

I can guarantee you that in the long term you will win exactly as many of these hands as you are supposed to. As I said before, all the money is in the top 2/3 places. If your 20BB stack loses a flip, so what, get over it, when you win (and despite what you say, you will) you're going to have a big stack, and a chance at winning the tournament.

Tonight I woke up with KK called his shove of A10 and you can guess what came on the flop.

Why are you unhappy with this? I say it all the time, bad players make the games profitable. If you'd rather play with the pros, give Phil Ivey and durrrr a call, they'll find a seat for you in their game any time you want, and you won't last long! In summary : You win some flips, you lose some flips, sometimes you even get 2 outered. If you're a winning player you should be happy about this.

[DasBoot]

Re: At the end of my tether. Thanks guys for all your replies, I appreciate it. Dave if I can start with you first. I've commented before on how many tables/tourneys you play and that is something that I simply cannot do. Having four of them open at once is more than enough for me; any more and I go cross-eyed. My $500+ cash was from a $5 sat so I was more than happy. Yes I do understand the concept of bankroll management but I play poker with the object of winning a few shekels and having it as a side hobby. I don't need to finish in the top 2/3 to keep me going or keep my BR intact. If I win, nice. If I ever manage to bink a package to a live tournament somewhere that's even better. I've been playing online now for seven years, on and off, and don't treat it as a business like you do. My gripe (as yes folks it is a moaning minnie gripe) is that in my head the whole world is against me when I sit down at the virtual felt. Do I lose every single time I get it in good? No. Do I never get lucky myself? Of course I do. Do I play some hands horrendously badly and I deserve everything I get? Most certainly. Last night was a breaking point particularly in the tourney that Washman won and I busted out in 18th . (:ok btw) DrJ I've seen Nick's first two videos and I believe there's another one waiting for me in my inbox. Very good they are too. Hen- you went 9 months without winning anything of note? I don't believe you! As for Skype I have it but rarely use it. How do I get involved in the group? Once again thanks for taking the time to reply guys. This is a great community with great players and great promos. I'm sorry if my moaning came across as trivial and in the grand scheme of things 120 approx tourneys is nothing. But to not get anywhere in them is a real head scratch. At this point in time I'm not enjoying the game so will scale back for a while. Cheers all :ok

[Goldenjaguar]

Re: At the end of my tether. "It seems to go like this. I play solid poker at the beginning, slowly but surely building my stack. Don't get into too many big pots but getting paid off when I do have the best hand. It's the middle of the tournys that the problems start. I leave marginal but playable hands alone and see me flop the nuts. I play premium hands strongly and get rivered by an inside straight. I loosen up and see a whole raft of picture cards hit the deck. The maniac who is up and down more times than a bride's nightie I try to steer clear of to only see time and time again that I would have beaten him and knocked him out had I called. When I do eventually make a stand my pair is no good against his AQo. Tonight I woke up with KK called his shove of A10 and you can guess what came on the flop. In the last two days I have lost races in the middle of tourneys no less than five times which would have seen me take the chip lead (or close to) and each time I have had the best of it pre flop. I get crippled- but don't tilt- and then build up my stack again only to see the same thing happen but this time it's Goodnight Vienna." Reading this again i would also suggest you dropping down in buyings and play some 18/20 man sngs for a while, try and learn more about shove/fold hands in sngs like these and you might begin to understand more WHY players call with what they do mid/late stages of tournaments. Ive stolen this from another forum as i didnt want to post a link to there its well worth a read The middle stage of a tournament is often the stickiest for beginning and intermediate players. Everyone knows that the early stages reward ABC play, as the stacks are so tiny relatively that gambling rarely pays. Everyone knows that the bubble is a time to start abusing tight opponents and trapping aggressive ones. The middle stages, however, present a unique challenge, a sort of limbo where the proper strategy isn’t always so clearly defined. With that challenge in mind, we’ve prepared a list of ten simple strategies – commandments, if you like – to help you navigate the often murky waters of MTT middle stages, courtesy of MosesBet.com. 1. Open Up Your Starting Hand Range In the middle stages of tournaments players adopting an overly tight strategy (you know who you are) should being to loosen up, especially in late positions and on tight tables. After the antes begin to start you should be 3betting your mid-pockets pairs and high suited connectors along with your premium hands in mid and late position. Too many players start to play excessively tight in the middle stages, trying to cruise to the bubble. Don’t be one – instead, be a player who pads your stack with their chips. 2. Steal Tight / TAG Players Blinds The size of the blinds makes them worth stealing in the mid stages of a tournament. With tight players on the SB/BB you should be raising the pot with almost anything from late position – tight players only have a calling range of about 5-10% (AK,AQ, 1010+). Loose players acting on the blinds will call you much more often however (as high as 60%) so avoid maniacal blind-stealing against these players – unless they have a tendency to give up if they miss the flop. Remember, tight players just don’t play back without a hand – even if you stole the blinds last time you had the button with junk, force yourself to raise again the next time and the next time until someone makes a stand. 3. Defend Your Blinds This is something a lot of bad MTT players fail at. Defending the blinds is just as important as stealing them, however most players go about this wrongly. The correct method to defend your blinds is by hitting back with a 3bet. You should never just be “calling” on the blinds to defend them. This is almost always negative EV play because you are out of position. An exception to this rule is when you’re playing against loose opponents who tighten up pre-flop. In this case a profitable trick is to flat-call and cbet the flop hoping your opponent missed (this happens more than 60% of the time). 4. Don’t Slow Play Premium Hands Pre-Flop Although there are occasions when small-ball strategy and limp shoves work with pocket Kings or Aces, the majority of the time you should always be getting your chips in the pot early with premium hands. While TAG players generally do this to avoid the flop, I believe loose players should also take note because you simply cannot afford to let others else limp into the pot in a tournament. The other benefit of not slow-playing your big hands (on any street) – it builds the pot quicker, and with stacks often fairly deep in the middle stages of the tournament, playing fast gives you the best chance to extract the maximum value with your strong hands. 5. Value Shove More Shoving for value (aka overbetting) is very effective and +EV in the mid-stages of a tournament. Why? Again, in the mid-stages the blinds are big enough that any contested pot is going to be a pretty fair size, and the larger the pot gets, the more likely it becomes that your opponent will make a big mistake trying to win it. Against regulars or in small fields, you need to make sure you mix your game up when shoving. If you are only jamming your stack in the pot with marginal hands and slow-playing premium hands, you will get caught quickly. Mixing your value shoves though turns you into a more dangerous opponent. 6. Cbet the Flop More Often With two or less opponents in the hand you should always be cbetting the flop with a half-pot sized bet. You only need to succeed 1/3 times to break even, and against weak opponents this is always the correct play. As with any strategy, you need to pick your spots with this one – beware especially of aggressive opponents who flat you preflop out of position and then check, because you’re going to see a check-raise a disproportionate amount of the time. Same goes with competent opponents who flat you in position – they’re either strong or prepared to act strong, so adjust your frequency accordingly. Against everyone else, go after those chips often and aggressively. 7. Overlimp from Late Position There is so much +EV from limping into flops with marginal/non-premium hands at this stage it’s unreal. Over-limping from late position with a marginal hand can be justified because of your position and the excellent price an already limped pot offers. If your opponents miss the flop you can easily exploit them, and if you have to bail on the flop, you’re only out one BB. The more opponents in the pot, the bigger the implied odds and the more hands you should be inclined to call with. Beware, however, of overlimping with shorter stacks in the blinds, as a parade of limpers may well motivate them to shove, sending your hand (and your implied odds) into the muck. 8. Play Your Stack, Not Your Cards A crucial tip for playing the middle stages of tournaments is that your stack size and your opponents’ is more important justifying your play than your cards. General guidelines: with a big stack (particularly when the effective size is small) you can call with a broader range of hands and set more traps. With medium stacks, you’re not looking to play post-flop so much as you’re looking for a good spot to re-steal preflop. With small stacks around 10xBBs, you should only be thinking about jamming or folding pre-flop. 9. Re-Steal More You shouldn’t be afraid to re-steal in tournaments; it’s not as complex as it seems and if pulled off correctly (against the right type of opponent) it’s an extremely profitable move which can really pad your stack and give you a strong table image. Who should you re-steal from? Loose opponents who open wide but back down once someone stands up to them, especially if your stack size is such that a re-steal makes you look committed. Tight opponents who mindlessly open the CO and button without regard to their opponents in the blinds. Who should you avoid? If you’re deep-stacked, other deep stacks, especially if you’re out of position; also, look out for hyper-aggressive players who are capable of 4 / 5 betting light when the stack sizes are such that you’re not committed to call a re-shove. 10. Tighten Up You Calling Range as you Approach the Money ICM concepts and tournament equity mean the risks of calling over-bets are much greater when you’re approaching the bubble. Usually the risk/rewards ratio makes it -$EV to call an opponent’s over-bet even if you know you’re a marginal favourite (1010 vs AQ for example). If you need to learn more about ICM principles I suggest purchasing the appropriate SNG/tournament tools or software (I personally recommend SNG wizard). That’s not to say you shouldn’t be aggressive on the bubble – aggression is fine, because you’ll often win the pot without a showdown. Just be wary of calling off your chips in situations where you’re likely to only have a small edge, as this is a stage in the tournament where taking a race for a big chunk of your stack isn’t always an optimal strategy.

[DasBoot]

Re: At the end of my tether. I can't take anymore. Mega sat ipops. Two hands before, this guy rivers a card to split the pot with me and then this. Uploaded at Picoodle.com I can't carry on taking these beats time and time again. It's not variance this is happening every single tournament.

[The Quiet Man]

Re: At the end of my tether. I'm afraid it 'IS VARIANCE.....no denying of the fact will alter that!!:lol:lol:lol By the way, have you been drinking?:unsure TQM

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: At the end of my tether.

VARIANCE

End thread.

[Haichan]

Re: At the end of my tether. It is easy to get into your head that you are suffering unfair variance. I had been on one of my worst runs of my poker life over the last 3 months. I would get deep in tournaments and then lose a key coin flip. It was a bigger concern for me as I had been using my poker winnings to supplement my income. After one particular series of bad beats last weekend I decided to take a few days off and think through when I had been winning and what I had been doing right. I realised that some of my best results had come in live poker. So I decided to go to the fox in london this weekend. I played their super satilitte into their monthly main event. I won the $300 seat and then played the main event. Ok Iwent out in 72nd but the key for me was that it made me realise that I had been rushing some of my decisions online. I then play their late night Semi freezeout and made the final table where I went out in 4th to 2 particular bad beats. But i was pleased with the way I played and I realised that my poker play was reasonably sound. So tonight in my first online game back I end up making 2nd in the $35000 and win my biggest payout this year. So the key is don't give up. Accept that you will lose con flips. Try to get it in good when you can and don't ignore your own mistakes. Its easy to pretend to ourselves that a mistake we make is a bad beat. And remember if like me you never play more than a couple of tables at any one time, you are likely to have longer runs between winning tournaments simply because you are playing less tournaments that some other players who multitable

[DasBoot]

Re: At the end of my tether. Thanks Haichan. I was scouting around the net and found this: The nature of poker variance can be demonstrated with an example. You are playing in a poker tournament and are dealt Ace-King and after a raising war pre-flop manage to get all-in against an opponent holding Ace-Jack. This is a great result, you have your chips in the middle as a solid 70% favorite. It also means that 3 out of every 10 times you play the hand you will be out of the tournament! In this example you survive the hand and later in the same tournament get all-in again with a pair of queens against tens. Here you are 80% favorite. Later still you have Ace-king and again get in as a 70% favorite against a lower ace. Your poker skills have enabled you to get in with the best hand 3 times! Here is where an understanding of variance can help your game. You are actually now less than even-money to be still in the poker tournament. This is how the numbers look: - First Hand: 70% of the time you win and are still in the game. - Second Hand: 80% of 70% you win and are still in the game (56%) - Third Hand: 70% of 56% you win are still in the game (39.2%) So even though you got your chips in as a solid favorite each hand played, you are now out of the tournament more than 60% of the time. Understanding this can help your online poker game in several ways. Firstly it can stop you feeling like you suffered a ‘bad-beat’ and subsequently going on tilt. Secondly it could make you more inclined to play more pots where you are not risking all of your chips in one go. Thirdly it should emphasize the need for solid bankroll management skills whichever game and level at which you play. I just feel that everything is against me but I know that everyone goes through this from time to time and it's the nature of the game. Over the weekend, for the first time ever, I was sitting down and expecting to lose. Not a good frame of mind as I'm sure you'll agree so taking a break for a little while because I'm not enjoying playing and that is the main reason that I play. Thanks everyone :ok

[The Quiet Man]

Re: At the end of my tether.

Over the weekend' date=' for the first time ever, I was sitting down and expecting to lose. Not a good frame of mind as I'm sure you'll agree so taking a break for a little while because I'm not enjoying playing and that is the main reason that I play. Thanks everyone :ok

I expect to lose EVERY time I'm ahead and all in....always amazed when my hand stands up.......that's poker for you!:ok TQM

[bignedkelly]

Re: At the end of my tether. take a break mate - you sound similar to me in that you play poker just as an enjoyable hobby and if you can make a few bob on the side then cool but its plain to see when you look at it from a diffferent perspecitive that you are not enjoying playing atm - come back to poker in 2 weeks time and all will be as it should :ok

[Renaan]

Re: At the end of my tether. Sucks going through times like these... been through a couple one of which has only just recently seemed to end. Two ways to get past... one is take a break.... have some time off and do something else for awhile. The other is as long as you're still getting your money in good and playing good poker, just grind through it. Luck changes eventually. Sucks really as there's nothing you can do if you're playing good poker but shit is just going badly.

[Burnley Joe]

Re: At the end of my tether. :rollin:rollin Look in yesterdays "Where are you playing" threads Yesterday AA all in pre flop lost both Tonight QQ v 77 lost lol :ok Chin up, it will swing