Poor Cash Player Needs Advice

[voiceofjoe]

Just started another attempt at being successful at Ring games - I've ordered some 'light reading' but until it comes I've decided to revisit the tables to remind myself how bad I really am :D This hand flummoxed me and I was never sure where I stood in the hand. I 3-bet pf Bet the Pot Then he throws out a min-bet (whats this usually mean ??) Then bets pot on the river when we have had runner runner heart ? I cant put him on the flush - can i ? I cant put him on a better 2 pair -can I ? UTG+1 Stats were 89!/4 from 55 hands Grabbed by Holdem Manager NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer SB ($7.12) BB ($22.50) UTG ($2.90) UTG+1 ($25.94) UTG+2 ($8.82) CO ($10) Hero ($5.40) Dealt to Hero Q:diamond: K:club: fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, UTG+2 calls $0.10, fold, Hero raises to $0.61, SB calls $0.56, fold, UTG+1 calls $0.51, fold FLOP ($2.03) 3:spade: 7:club: K:heart: SB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.80, SB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.70 TURN ($3.63) 3:spade: 7:club: K:heart: 3:heart: UTG+1 bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10 RIVER ($3.83) 3:spade: 7:club: K:heart: 3:heart: 5:heart: UTG+1 bets $2.87 ....... Hero to act

[Nade]

Re: Poor Cash Player Needs Advice

Just started another attempt at being successful at Ring games - I've ordered some 'light reading' but until it comes I've decided to revisit the tables to remind myself how bad I really am :D This hand flummoxed me and I was never sure where I stood in the hand. I 3-bet pf Bet the Pot Then he throws out a min-bet (whats this usually mean ??) Then bets pot on the river when we have had runner runner heart ? I cant put him on the flush - can i ? I cant put him on a better 2 pair -can I ? UTG+1 Stats were 89!/4 from 55 hands

Treat min-bets like a check basically, it's never a trap IME, they're trying to get to SD/ see the next card but don't want to bet and basically don't know what to do so just treat it like a check. The only flush he's likely to have is 7xhh which is possible knowing these guys. I imagine he's loose passive which means he's unlikely to bluff post flop, though when i do see these people bluff it's usually on the river. It's a really confusing river spot as there's not much he can have but must have called the flop with something but doesn't look like he has a 3 and he wouldn't play a K like that. Because i don't think he has pure air in a river bet here we can fold as we lose to all his value hands.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Poor Cash Player Needs Advice

Because i don't think he has pure air in a river bet here we can fold as we lose to all his value hands.

Thanks Tom, I'll post what I did in a day or so :$ in case anyone else has any thoughts. Should I raised again on the turn ? - is calling behind a sign of weakness here

[Nade]

Re: Poor Cash Player Needs Advice

Thanks Tom, I'll post what I did in a day or so :$ in case anyone else has any thoughts. Should I raised again on the turn ? - is calling behind a sign of weakness here

Should really raise the turn 100% in this spot as they've virtually checked and if they were to 3bet raise the turn over us then we find out a lot more that they have a big hand which makes the turn and river a lot easier to play. Calling turn is a sign of weakness which could lead to him bluffing the river more than usual but crucially you have to be thinking is our opponent thinking about taking advantage of perceived weakness? No. So it's not relevant to consider it in terms of his river bet.

[averick]

Re: Poor Cash Player Needs Advice Hey VoJ, first off: 1. You did not 3bet preflop, you simply raised 2 limpers. With that said I don't think this matters to an 89/4 player. 2. You did not bet the pot on the flop, you raised a donk bet, and it wasn't a pot-sized raise. Hopefully I did not misread the HH (I have a habit of doing that at wee hours of the morning:spank), and sorry if I sounded curt! Without any real history I would generally treated suspected donks as they are. When you are raising to 6BB preflop creating an effective stack-to-pot ratio of 4:1, I would do so with the intention of committing with a TPGK hand against a donkish type player. What you could have done was make a raise large enough for you to push comfortably on the turn. Raising to something like $1.20 on the flop would leave you with approximately 36BB with a pot size of 44BB going into the turn, which you could jam on the turn. On such a dry board I would be confident that he shows up with lots of worse hands here such as top pair medium kicker type hands and turned 7xhh flush draws. When I play hands in such a manner I would expect them to show up with turned trips sometimes, but from experience it barely makes a dent in my earnings from donks. As played: I was going to mention that if a 4/5/6 fell on the turn, I would still play the hands the same way as I previously described, even though now there's the chance he would have hit his gutshot. The reason's the same as what I mentioned earlier. So now his most likely hands that beat you are 77, 3x, and as Nade said, 7xhh. You have the advantage of knowing he probably doesn't think much about your hand range, so you can just concentrate on basic hand reading and work out whether this would be a profitable call. Unless you've observed him for an hour and only seen him commit with the near nuts, I would make this call 99% of the time in this exact situation. He'll almost never think "oh, i've got K9, he's raised preflop and raised me on the flop, even though he just called my minbet on the turn he's probably not going to bet a hand worse than mine, so I should check and hope to get to showdown". Imo he will show up with worse hands often enough for this call to be profitable.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Poor Cash Player Needs Advice Thanks for the input guys - interesting to see your thought processes. (Yes Averick my Bet descriptions were a little awry ;)) Also quite revealing that two established cash players like yourselves. Both end up with different River plays, which re-enforces the fact that its a game of opinions and not an exact science. I folded the river BTW I felt as though I was behind from the way he played the hand, and whilst trying to reignite my confidence didnt want to call for that number of BB just to kick myself for making a call that felt like a losing one From playing the hand and reading back both your comments I'm inclined to think he hit his set on the flop (or at least had made a Full House by the River)- I'll never know for sure :\

[Yorkshire Pudding]

Re: Poor Cash Player Needs Advice 1.) Always buy in for the full 100BB IMO, if you don't want to risk $10 then play NL5 2.) Fold preflop 3.) As played raise flop much more, get it in on the turn at the latest with your stack size

[gettingfatter]

Re: Poor Cash Player Needs Advice I dont play full ring but surely folding KQo on the button is bad. I only agree with definately buying in full if you actually believe you a favourite in the games you are playing. Raise the flop bigger and get it in on the turn. It doesnt matter if he can have a flush or a better two pair, your stack size and his range dictates that you just have to stick the money in the middle. As played fold river.

[f_ivanovic]

Re: Poor Cash Player Needs Advice Agree with most of what others have said. Raise flop more. Raise his turn donk. I also call the river unless he's super passive and only bets when he has a very strong hand.

[^Newbie^]

First of all , how is he playing ? Is he tight or loose ? Next , my analysis of the hand would be as follows . You raised , and someone calls from UTG +1 . You gotta be worried here . If KQ came on the flop , you got to be worried about a set here to have you beat . Now , Great King came on the flop . UTG + 1 bet to find out where he is . You raised big , almost telling him yeah i have a K and a good kicker . BUt he calls . Now you have to wonder is your kicker any good . But remember he limped , so he could easily have a pocket pair and wants to hang in there . He could also have a draw though and sees implied odds when he hits it . Turn card 3 . Doesn't help anyone here . Good card for you as now you have 2 pair plus good kicker . The bet he puts out is telling you i want to see another card man . Could you help me out by not raising ? You oblige by calling . River card 5 . Completes a flush out there . Given the way the hand has played out , unlikely to have a flush , possible straight now if he's limping with 46 and caught his straight . Likely to have pocket 5s also . Pocket Kings not likely as you have a King in your hand . There is a slight chance he is bluffing too , because of the call on the turn . You were unsure of your hand and showed weakness but is he a player that would play like this ? You have to based this on observation in previous hands prior to this . I reckon you are beat . Fold and wait for another spot to play with . If you are holding onto a pair onli at the river , your pair looks vulnerable and you want to get to a cheap showdown . You shown your strength , he shows you even better strength . If he bluffs you so be it . Live to fight another day .

Grabbed by Holdem Manager NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer SB ($7.12) BB ($22.50) UTG ($2.90) UTG+1 ($25.94) UTG+2 ($8.82) CO ($10) Hero ($5.40) Dealt to Hero Q:diamond: K:club: fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, UTG+2 calls $0.10, fold, Hero raises to $0.61, SB calls $0.56, fold, UTG+1 calls $0.51, fold FLOP ($2.03) 3:spade: 7:club: K:heart: SB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.80, SB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.70 TURN ($3.63) 3:spade: 7:club: K:heart: 3:heart: UTG+1 bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10 RIVER ($3.83) 3:spade: 7:club: K:heart: 3:heart: 5:heart: UTG+1 bets $2.87 ....... Hero to act

[^Newbie^]

Re: Poor Cash Player Needs Advice Should have raised big to tell him you mean business and see how they react to it . If he's on a draw you want him to pay for it .

Thanks Tom, I'll post what I did in a day or so :$ in case anyone else has any thoughts. Should I raised again on the turn ? - is calling behind a sign of weakness here