Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

[teaulc]

Do you have the discipline to fold pocket aces before the flop? Imagine the scenario. You’re playing Texas hold’em poker in a single table sit-and-go tournament. It’s getting towards the latter stages, five players are left and you can smell an in-the-money finish. But you need to get in to the top three and stay there – while your chip stack would be nice if it was bigger. The blinds are becoming significant and you know you’ll have to make your move soon. Out come the cards – miracles of miracles, you look down at your cards and see the magic AA looking back at you. Now, surely this means it’s you right to win the hand. Announce “I’m all-in” and become the chip leader. Now, under most circumstances there’s no doubt that you should either push in a tasty raise or even all-in with those big aces. Although remarkable as it may seem, there are times to fold those “pocket rockets” and not see a flop. It takes discipline to do and is all about risk versus reward. If you’re playing single table sit and go tournaments you must finish in the first three to get a return on your entry fee. We all know that the great starting hands don’t come along too often and when they do, a lot of players become married to the hand and can’t put it down under any circumstances. The savy player knows when to fold. And that includes folding AA pre-flop. Here’s when to consider very carefully when to muck those aces before the flop. Back to the scenario. Five players left, you’re in fourth place with those Aces screaming at you to push your chips in. But you have the advantage being in last position to act. Two players with bigger stacks than you throw enough chips in the pot to force you all-in if you decide to play. And now the small stack in fifth place takes his chances and goes all-in. The action is now on you. The urge to splash your chips in to the middle is irresistible. But before you do – thnk about it for a moment. As things stand, you can fold your aces now with the chance of moving in to third place and a money finish without risk. If the player in the hand with the biggest stack wins it, he’ll take out the other two with smaller stacks and you instantly get bumped up to third place and guaranteed money without. And without risking any of your chips which you still have to fight with. Risk = zero. Reward = third place at least and a guaranteed prize money. That’s when to fold anything pre-flop, not just aces. Throw anything away at any stage if it means you can move in to the money without risk.

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? How often does that scenario above happen? Very, very rarely and even if it did i'd take the risk of sitting on a huge stack with only 4 or less players left with a great chance of winning. Although i suppose it depends on whether you want to cash or whether you want to win. I'm no expert but that's just my opinion.

[bignedkelly]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? if i get aces - even in that situation im puuting the chips in the middle knowing that i am ahead - the only situations where i would fold em pre flop would be in a satalite around the cut off or in a 50/50 sit an go around the cut off - in all other situations i am playing to win and would be glad to take the chance of entering a multiway pot with aces Just my opinion

[trips]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? IMO, I think its a mistake to assume by folding aces you will make the money,OP does say blinds are getting significant,you could easly fold and blind away till your forced all in with a hand like 28 os. theres an argument for folding kings if you want to make the money but cant fold aces in this situation,this is not laddering when 2 or 3 shortstacks are all in, your fav to win hand and if you do you will most certainly cash, folding dosent guarantee you will cash.

[dik9]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? Just LOL Maybe in a satellite, but in a an STT or regular MTT?? If you are seriously considering folding AA preflop then bankroll management is your problem and you are playing with scared money at an entry cost more than you can afford! Where was this article teaulc?

[rossom]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? I can understand folding pocket aces preflop, but only when you are not statistically favourite to win the hand, or you are flipping in spot you don't need to. For example, if you are in a hand all in preflop with 3 other people, showing KQ suited, J10 suited and a smaller pocket pair, you are only 50%, or virtually in a coin flip to win the hand. Although the scenario is unlikely, it means that the player can decide that at an important stage of a tournament with a large stack, that it is not worth risking your stack on a coin flip. However, this scenario is ridiculously unlikely and you've got to get your money in 99% of the time with them

[Haichan]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? In most cases folding AA's preflop in an mtt is a bad play. You are never going to win or even get into serious money if you do that. example. In the recent circus poker vegas team live yesterday. Final table 8 left and 4 are paid. 1.9 mil chips in play. blinds are $600/300 with a $500 anti. Chip leader in early raises to $30,000. player in seat 4 with $176,000 chips goes all. player in seat 5 with £232,000 goes all in. player in seat 6 with $147,000 and sitting on AA's has a major decision and he correctly goes all in. With the blinds and anti's at the levels they are you cannot afford to wait for another spot. I'm in the small blind and have an easy fold. But if I was sitting on AA then I almost certainly would have called. The chip leader with 10/10 folds, seat 4 shows AK. seat 5 QQ and seat 6 can't watch as his AA's hold up. He knocks out seat 4 and takes the chip lead. In the end he finish up in the money in 3rd place. But even if he had lost it would have been the correct call.

[slapdash]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

For example' date=' if you are in a hand all in preflop with 3 other people, showing KQ suited, J10 suited and a smaller pocket pair, you are only 50%, or virtually in a coin flip to win the hand.[/quote'] A virtual coin flip where you're getting odds of about 3/1 ...

[Esox]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? I think i would factor in the stake of the SNG, if i am playing at my usual buy in its a shove but if iv moved up a level or two, getting a cash is more important.

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

I think i would factor in the stake of the SNG' date=' if i am playing at my usual buy in its a shove but if iv moved up a level or two, getting a cash is more important.[/quote'] If you're playing at a buy-in where you would fold them, you shouldn't be playing at that buy-in

[Belgareth]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? I cant see how anyone would advise to fold here. You have to put your chips in I think and over the long run making the play to win the tournie will give a better return on your investment rather then just trying to make the money. Unless as most other people have stated its a Sattalite or another payout structure which does not reward first over 2nd and 3rd. Good luck at the tables.

[Ascot]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? Easy fold on Boss. The Spaniard with A3 will flop a straight BUT the Bulgarian with pocket 8s will hit runner runner quads. Only kidding, but it sometimes feels that way. Like today .....

[Esox]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

If you're playing at a buy-in where you would fold them' date=' you shouldn't be playing at that buy-in[/quote'] i am pretty strict about my levels, but like most players i occasionally try a move up, if i lose few i come back down, how else to decide when its time to reach a little higher?

[Outlaw_Hood]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? at the end of the day pocket aces is only a pair and preflop if they bet is above 5 times the big blind and the big blind is well big say 100 dollars i fold if its small say 20 i call

[Lee26]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? if its possible i think ive lost with more pre flop AA than i have won. statisically they are the best you can have, but i have no luck at all with them. although i dont think id ever have the guts to fold them. End of the day u cant be beat until the flop, so you have to go.

[bacardirum]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? Followed similar strategy quite a lot when playing double up games (10 players, top 5 win), if we are down to the last 6 or 7, and I get a monster but in doing so I am putting my position of being comfortable if I did lose, I wont play them, at end of day its all about making the money in whatever it is you do, and if not playing what is the best hand means making the money then its the correct play imo In a normal tourny no way, you want to win those things, you either build up a nice chip stack or you go home empty handed, but for double-ups, sit and go's I can see that this play can be wise.

[GaF]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? We had a whole thread on folding Aces in Double Up games here ;) http://forum.punterslounge.com/f63/im-good-enough-fold-aces-preflop-thread-78347/

[Von Donkenschnitzel]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

i am pretty strict about my levels' date=' but like most players i occasionally try a move up, if i lose few i come back down, how else to decide when its time to reach a little higher?[/quote'] Probably when you're significantly beating the level you're at & are rolled for a higher level (ie. 50buyins min.) I haven't read this ^ article (yet), but when we're talking about ICM considersations in a DoN it really doesn't compare to a typical Top3 50/30/20 payout imo. (in other words > there'll be many spots where we can be justifiably folding AA preflop in a DoN... but in a reg. STT/SNG I doubt it)

[Von Donkenschnitzel]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

at the end of the day pocket aces is only a pair and preflop if they bet is above 5 times the big blind and the big blind is well big say 100 dollars i fold if its small say 20 i call

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying here ^ ? Are you saying > if blinds are 10/20 & player raises 5x (100) you're folding AA? If so... why? (perhaps I've misunderstood)

[trips]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? Reminds me of the old question,what would you do if you got aces first hand in WSOP. never understood the dilemma. only problem ive got is trying to get as much money in to isolate 1 opponent.if hes willing to go all in ,great,highly unlikely ,if i got beat and knocked out first hand due to moving allin pf then thats the way it goes,its all hypothetical of course. doubt if anyone would be willing to get it all in first hand PF with anything less than aces. are you sure your not getting mixed up with set mining Outlaw. the odds for calling pf raises with small pairs to hit trips on the flop.

[Chromehead]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

We had a whole thread on folding Aces in Double Up games here ;) http://forum.punterslounge.com/f63/im-good-enough-fold-aces-preflop-thread-78347/

In a double up game it's a no brainer - you fold . Assuming the tourney vig is 10% Your'e only playing for 82% increase on your buy in . Your'e odds 3 way are way below that. In a normal sit and go your'e risking 1.1 buy ins 110% of stake. Sitting pat and not playing means you win 2 buy ins for an 82% profit guaranteed (not bad). BUT there is a HUGE chipleader after this pot and your in third with correspondingly less chance of winning. Playing gives you a chance of winning 5 buy ins for a 355% profit ( if i have the maths right) I think this covers the risk. SO BANG IT IN! (after all they haven't got better cards than you!)

[f_ivanovic]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? Another situation: 9 player SnG. You're in the BB with AA and everyone is all in. Folding guarantees you 2nd place with a very unlikely chance of 1st. If you call you're definitely not a favourite against 9 other players.

[GaF]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

Folding guarantees you 2nd place with a very unlikely chance of 1st.

Assuming you were not in the blinds - your tournament equity (certainly in the way ICM calculates it) will remain unchanged if you fold. Before the first hand of a 10 seat tournament, where no-one has a skill advantage over anyone else, then you have a 10% chance of winning the tournament. The other players collectively have a 90% chance of winning the tournament. If you fold, and everyone else goes all in, and the hand is won outright by one player (i.e. no split pots ;)), then your tournament equity is still 10%. The other player holds 90% equity. So your chances of winning are unchanged, but folding [almost] guarantees you second place. But that doesnt really help us know what decision is best in terms of tournament equity (in a standard payout where top 3 are paid) AA is about 31% against 9 random holdings. So your win equity is 31% * 50% of the prize pool - about 15.5% of the prize pool. Add onto that a ninth of the 2nd and 3rd places (the other 50% of the prize pool) and that's about another 5.5% equity. So your overall equity for calling is about 21% of the prize pool (up from 10% at the start of the tourney) If you fold, and if we ignore the chances of a split pot, then you are guaranteed 2nd place for 30% of the prize pool. You still have a 10% chance of winning and if you do, that will boost your prize by another 20% of the prize pool. SO we can add on a 10% chance of winning a further 20% of the prize pool, which is an added 2% equity. Your overall equity for folding is therefore about 22% of the prize pool. Assuming my maths is correct, its a marginal fold in that situation.

[Goldenjaguar]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? Seriously, theres hardley a situ where you should fold AA pre, it would have to be on the bubble of something extremely large with more than 1 aipf before me. Even then i would hate myself for folding. Your playing for the top spot/prize ( or should be), not to min cash after hours of folding pants. When you enter any sng or mtt, your entering it to win, not place 2nd. Mark

[GaF]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

Your playing for the top spot/prize ( or should be)' date=' not to min cash after hours of folding pants. When you enter any sng or mtt, your entering it to win, not place 2nd.[/quote'] The majority of cases where you should fold Aces pre flop will be Double or Nothing games - in this structure, you're not playing for the win and you'd take 2nd place every time.

[trips]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

The majority of cases where you should fold Aces pre flop will be Double or Nothing games - in this structure' date=' you're not playing for the win and you'd take 2nd place every time.[/quote'] You also have to accumulate some chips in a double up to survive, Is it correct fold aces in a double up,say in the first few levels when blinds are low,youve not been involved,no player is out. your in mid postion FTA with aces you raise,1 player raises all in ,all fold round to you.surely you dont fold ,even in a double up.

[f_ivanovic]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop?

You also have to accumulate some chips in a double up to survive, Is it correct fold aces in a double up,say in the first few levels when blinds are low,youve not been involved,no player is out. your in mid postion FTA with aces you raise,1 player raises all in ,all fold round to you.surely you dont fold ,even in a double up.

In this situation it's almost always correct to call. You have at least an 80% chance of going from an OK chance of cashing to a very good chance of cashing. Unless you know that at least 4 of the players are very passive fishy and you know you're more than say a 80% favourite to cash then there is no reason to ever fold. However when it gets down to say 4 players left. The big stack shoves all in and you, the 2nd biggest stack has AA. If there is a player on the brink of going out then you should fold your AA. A few weeks ago I was playing a DYM and had the big stack. Some player had an average stack and someone else had dwindling chips and had been away for ages. I raised it up with K8 and this average stack shoved on me. I called him and he turns over AQ, and I bink a K and win. I probably tilted him badly but that's what you get when you're a muppet that puts his chips at risk when someone else is 99% guaranteed to go out.

[Mother Pus]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? AA preflop, if you are folding in anything other than satallites or (maybe) double or nothings you should give up the game.

[Acez24]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? I have folded them before in a DON game but would never consider a fold in a standard SNG. Always go for the win.

[CrAzY29]

Re: Fold Pocket Aces Pre-Flop? a good question for all...can you fold AA at an important tournament in the bubble moment? other player puts u all in and he is verry tight, u are in middle possition and u need to go all in or fold. soo what s your decison ?