Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

[bowles10]

a few examples come to mind Somersby - could tell last year this would be a 2m4f - 3m horse and thought surely they would have a look at possibly making it into a King George possible and then the Gold cup, so why run it in the 2m tingle creek only to see the horse taken off its feet due to the pace and then staying on up the hill at the finish for a place Kalahari King - again how badly did that run in The tingle creek, its deffo better over 2m 4f at least so what is murphy doing with the animal back at 2m?? Petit Robin - really good to see it back over 2m this season and proved by its excellent run in the tingle creek on saturday behind Master minded, once we get this on a flat track, i can see it hosing up big time as long as it avoids MM!! Henderson always knew it was a pure 2m horse so why bother over further last year? Twist Magic - what was nicholls going to prove trying to win the Peterborough over 2m 4f on Sunday. Again, its a basic 2m horse so dont mess about and take in the 2m races only I can only assume its down to the amount of races available for these horses however Punters have to be better informed and really should take account of the change in distances. :ok

[Trotter]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? That's a big question ! I don't think a horse's 'trip' is as set in stone as you imply Surely a trainer can train a horse differently to get a different trip.........same as humans could. I mean Usain Bolt could probably adopt a different training regime and turn himself into a 400 metre runner over time - lose a bit of weight and muscle, do more stamina training, core strength development or whatever. Another thing is that horses naturally seem to change as the years go by. Most horses appear to lose speed and gain stamina with the passing years. I'm sure twist magic would be fine over 2.5 miles these days on a flat track whereas he might struggle over 2 miles against younger horses.

[BillyHills]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? Hen Knight gave an interview the other day saying that the horse showed so much speed at home she was convinced Somersby had a big 2 mile race in him but also admitted he stayed aswell so I reckon she's caught between the two. As far as Kalahari King is concerned, Murphy 'really' wants to win at the festival and the horse wont be pushed until then so i reckon these are all races just to keep the horse ticking over and has limited opportunities to run.

[bowles10]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? nothing new there though Trotter, horses do change however the examples are obvious poor placings by the trainers. Henrietta has been rightly criticised about Somersby in my opinion, she needs to come out of her Best mate shadow and attempt to win the race again. Somersby was a very exciting prospect but what will she do next with it? It cant won the QM in March and has to go for the ryan air or the gold cup IMO, with the ryan air being the favourite i feel now. Petit robin is is the ryanair betting and surely must go the QM route even for the place money behind MM, as the horse is best at 2m, 3 times tried over 2m4f+ finished 5th, 7th and 10th need i say any more

[Gingertipster]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

a few examples come to mind Somersby - could tell last year this would be a 2m4f - 3m horse and thought surely they would have a look at possibly making it into a King George possible and then the Gold cup, so why run it in the 2m tingle creek only to see the horse taken off its feet due to the pace and then staying on up the hill at the finish for a place. Agreed, Somersby does look a much better proposition over further. Although was worth a try at 2 miles, as connections also still have Racing Demon and Calgary Bay for 2m4f to 3m. Terry and Hen are laws unto themselves when it comes to placing horses. Calgary Bay for the Grand National! :eek Kalahari King - again how badly did that run in The tingle creek, its deffo better over 2m 4f at least so what is murphy doing with the animal back at 2m?? Can't see the problem with Kalahari King, won a top handicap at 2m at Doncaster last year, showing a turn of foot to power away in the closing stages. Argueably unlucky second in the Arkle too. Why do you think he's better at 2m4f Bowles? To my mind he's just not been right at any distance since Doncaster. Probably seen the best of him. Petit Robin - really good to see it back over 2m this season and proved by its excellent run in the tingle creek on saturday behind Master minded, once we get this on a flat track, i can see it hosing up big time as long as it avoids MM!! Henderson always knew it was a pure 2m horse so why bother over further last year? I think you've hit the nail on the head Bowles. They were scared of the odds-on favourite Master Minded in last year's Champion, so went for the more open Ryanair. Then went hurdling to Aintree, over a sharp 2 1/2 miles which should not place as much emphasis on stamina. Worth a go, particularly as there is no 2 mile target at Aintree. Twist Magic - what was nicholls going to prove trying to win the Peterborough over 2m 4f on Sunday. Again, its a basic 2m horse so dont mess about and take in the 2m races only. I remain to be convinced of Twist magic's ability to stay 2 1/2 miles too. But the evidence suggests he does not like Cheltenham either. Until he tries it there's always a chance he's better at 2 1/2 miles. There's also the fact Nicholls has other 2 milers to place. Tataniano goes for the Desert Orchid at Kempton. Worth a run over further to find out surely? Remember Desert Orchid in his first King George? Nobody but Elsie thought he'd get 3 miles. It's a good job Twister thought Imperial Commander would stay the Gold Cup trip. Had I been the trainer he'd just be a dual Ryanair winner! So trainers do get it right sometimes when others doubt them. I can only assume its down to the amount of races available for these horses however Punters have to be better informed and really should take account of the change in distances. :ok

Of course punters should decide how likely a horse is to run to form / improve at any trip. Running horses over shorter can be beneficial, speed work. It can also enable handicappers to win races over shorter (with a lesser weight), before going on to improve when stepped up to its optimum distance, winning more races. Where as if going straight to its best trip, the handicapper can quickly get a handle on the horse.

[fintron]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? when i saw the thread title i immediately thought of somersby, bowles. I hope hen sends him for the gold cup as i feel he needs a stamina test and could ruffle a few feathers. If he fails to stay then he still has options over two and a half miles. On the subject of wrong trips, did anyone see london bridge of noel meades? Sent out over 7f recently but is a middle distance handicapper.

[mileni4uk]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? Hen has no clue. Petit Robin is best when fresh. After that his form always falters. They were trying different things last year, but you should just discount most of his runs. Just back him when fresh. Twist Magic will stay 2m4f on a flat Huntingdon. He won the Tinge Creek with bold front running last year at Sandown and powered up the hill. Kalahari King.. they must have made fortunes laying the horse at Ferdie's. Been all kinds of prices. Few times a short priced fav too. I can't remember the last time they were really trying with him.

[mileni4uk]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? "so much speed at home" :rollin:rollin What are your thoughts when you see him in races? Looks genuinely outpaced to me. Just proves how clueless Hen is. If a horse shows so much speed at home and stays so well up the hill what is the natural thing to do. Like PN did with Kauto. Run him in the Arkle then go for the Gold Cup next year. It's a no brainer.

[bowles10]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? some good points here guys, thanks personally i think there is natural progression in some horses and a 2m arkle 2nd or 3rd is destined for longer distances. We knew last year about Somersby so personally i just didnt see the point in running it in the 2m race at all, a better choice may have been the Peterborough and i know that the argument would be that you couldnt guarantee it would be on. Now if they had, Somersby over 2m 4f at Newbury tomorrow vs Twist Magic and Deep Purple would be some race. I cant see TM winning at Newbury to be honest, its the wrong way round for a start and has a gruelling tough finish which wont be up TM's street at all

[Gingertipster]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? Had you been the owner of Somersby Bowles, would you have run your two best horses in the same race? Racing Demon was declared for the Peterborough Chase on Sunday. But as he does not act left-handed, has been withdrawn from tomorrows race.

[bowles10]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

Had you been the owner of Somersby Bowles' date=' would you have run your two best horses in the same race? Racing Demon was declared for the Peterborough Chase on Sunday. But as he does not act left-handed, has been withdrawn from tomorrows race.[/quote'] i see your point, it is Demon's race, won it at least twice i think i just really like Somersby as have championed it every year so far and feel a bit deflated about it, it nows looks as though Hen was justified running it as nothing else around unless they went the KG route which is unlikely back to Kalahari King, i think the horse will be a better animal over 2m 4f, when it won at Donny, it returned at 10/1 on its 1st outing after the Arkle, the reason being that Murphy said it couldnt win off top weight, i backed Nicholls' Free World that day and thought it was a good thing, came 3rd. The opinion also was that KK possibly would need further. will be interesting what horse turns up In March

[Gingertipster]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? That Donny race was interesting, in that despite the trainer's words earlier in the day; from what I remember the price did not change significantly. So it seems someone fancied it. ;)

[mileni4uk]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? If there's any trainer amongst all you shouldn't listen to, that's Ferdy Murphy.

[billvernon]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? Hmmmm !! Twist Magic RIP - Ran over longer distance today paid with his life . It is a bit of a lottery this horse racing lark .:sad

[Gingertipster]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? Can not see how you can blame the trip for Twist Magic losing his life.

[BillyHills]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

It is a bit of a lottery this horse racing lark

Dont know why you typed that? Twist Magic falling had nothing to do with the trip, it could have happened on the gallops at home, a massive percentage of falling horses get up ok anyway, its certainly no lottery either.

[BillyHills]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? Beat me to it Ginge:ok

[bowles10]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

Hmmmm !! Twist Magic RIP - Ran over longer distance today paid with his life . It is a bit of a lottery this horse racing lark .:sad

this is sad, i was watching the race and the horse fell heavily i am not in the camp of blaming anyone for what happens, and quite possibly the horse had run its race albeit it was still in front with only 3 fences to jump one thing to say RIP

[chris34]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

one thing to say RIP

Couldnt put it better myself, a sad loss!

[billvernon]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? A few guys on here with quite strong opinion on what I wrote - I am allowed to express mine I assume ?? I thought that Paul Nicholls was taking a chance with running Twist Over the extra distance over left handed course - maybe I should have said "extra distance & Left Handed" Maybe he would have ran better on a right handed course - Won even . I noted that he seemed cautious in some of his jumps.. I seriously think that Twisted was a great 2 mile horse on right handed courses.I think his last completed run over 2m1f was good but noted he drifted right at the end he came 2nd but carried weight well.I was not convinced he should go further - maybe on Right hhanded course yes he could have run as he definetly ran well .But over left I think you had to add the Left hand factor which made it harder for him and I think contributed to him making a mistake. Anyhow I do not put opinions on here to pee people off.I just give it and in this case I thought the distance ON A LEFT HANDED COURSE contributed to his accident.We will never know how he would have faired if he had ran originally on the right handed course.Probably not even writing this maybe :( - maybe a factor that has to be included when looking at placing horses is its running style.I seriously think they made a mistake on this one.

[BillyHills]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

I am allowed to express mine I assume ??

Of course you are Bill, as I have to reply. The part i quoted in your post was the bit about 'Its a bit of a lottery, this horse racing lark'. Your obviously a knowledgeable bloke and i'm sorry but i find that sentence amazing to be honest. As far as going left handed is concerned, i'm not sure, you may be right but i'd like to think Mr Nicholls and the owners thought about that too. Anyway, a sad loss whatever we think and these things happen all the time, sometimes we look for reasons or to award blame, in this instance I think it was just a racing incident, the horse was going well, had jumped well too and i'm pretty sure he would have stayed the trip ok, as you say we will never know I suppose. :ok

[bowles10]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? its fate isn't it, if the tingle creek had been run at sandown the week before, it may have ran in that race or had the peterborough been run on sunday at huntingdon, again it may not have happened i did write on the day that the trip was possibly too far and that the horse had no real form left handed, i dont believe these contrbuted to its fall though Its sad to lose any horse to be honest

[mileni4uk]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? It doesn't have anything to do with distance or track. The horse was cruising. Falls happen, sometimes they are fatal, sometimes they aren't. RIP Twister.

[Gingertipster]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

A few guys on here with quite strong opinion on what I wrote - I am allowed to express mine I assume ?? I thought that Paul Nicholls was taking a chance with running Twist Over the extra distance over left handed course - maybe I should have said "extra distance & Left Handed" Maybe he would have ran better on a right handed course - Won even . I noted that he seemed cautious in some of his jumps.. I seriously think that Twisted was a great 2 mile horse on right handed courses.I think his last completed run over 2m1f was good but noted he drifted right at the end he came 2nd but carried weight well.I was not convinced he should go further - maybe on Right hhanded course yes he could have run as he definetly ran well .But over left I think you had to add the Left hand factor which made it harder for him and I think contributed to him making a mistake. Anyhow I do not put opinions on here to pee people off.I just give it and in this case I thought the distance ON A LEFT HANDED COURSE contributed to his accident.We will never know how he would have faired if he had ran originally on the right handed course.Probably not even writing this maybe :( - maybe a factor that has to be included when looking at placing horses is its running style.I seriously think they made a mistake on this one.

Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, just seems a bit of a strange one. For the record, I did not think Twist Magic would stay, or be as good left-handed. You'd expect Twist Magic to be going well two out when racing against a 3 miler - so even allowing for the horse going particularly well, does not mean he would've won. Yet, because Twist Magic was going so well at that point, on a left-handed course - surely vindicates connections decision to run - Whether he'd have won or not. Throughout the history of racing there's been cases of trainers running horses which seem unlikely stayers to win races. Imperial Commander and Kauto Star in the Gold Cup for two. Desert Orchid in the King George looked a very unlikely stayer at the time of his first win. Indeed, Desert Orchid was a stone worse horse going left-handed, so was it wrong to let him run and win the Gold Cup?

[bowles10]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

i see your point, it is Demon's race, won it at least twice i think i just really like Somersby as have championed it every year so far and feel a bit deflated about it, it nows looks as though Hen was justified running it as nothing else around unless they went the KG route which is unlikely back to Kalahari King, i think the horse will be a better animal over 2m 4f, when it won at Donny, it returned at 10/1 on its 1st outing after the Arkle, the reason being that Murphy said it couldnt win off top weight, i backed Nicholls' Free World that day and thought it was a good thing, came 3rd. The opinion also was that KK possibly would need further. will be interesting what horse turns up In March

So Somersby didnt go the KG route, pity. Kalahari King, in the press today Murphy taking on Master Minded this weekend coming at Ascot over 2m 1f, and then main target is the Ryanair over 2m 5f - will they finally see the light, it cannot compete with the 2m crowd this season, MMis back to its best and KK wouldnt beat it off levels. The ryan air is the obvious choice and we might even see Somersby in the same race !

[fintron]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? Fair play to Hen, Somersby ran an absolute worldie today despite plenty of us calling for her to step him up in trip. What a cracking horse he is. :clap

[mileni4uk]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? Ascot looked very testing today. The ground is probably sticky. Somersby will find it hard to get anywhere near MM and Big Zeb on spring ground at Cheltenham. In fact he'll do well to reverse form with Sizing Europe. If he goes Ryanair thought, he is a 3/1 chance.

[bowles10]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

Fair play to Hen' date=' Somersby ran an absolute worldie today despite plenty of us calling for her to step him up in trip. What a cracking horse he is. :clap[/quote'] i love the horse but will never be convinced that it can win anything over 2m, remember today was 2m 1f on sticky ground, MM definitely got very tired after the last fence and it showed with Somersby keeping plenty in reserve yet again, my point is that the above could have been written many times over and over again about Somersby :ok The ryanair should be a great race.

[Goldikova]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance? It should be remembered that these people are the trainers. It's the owners who get the final say in where a horse runs. The people who own the horse will have the ideas, once conferring with the trainer. It's far to simplistic to think that a horse of this quality should decide where it is running for the festival at this stage when there are other dynamics to take in to consideration. They want to pre-long it's career at the top level. I think he would be suited to the Ryanair. That's my opinion but some owners are in no rush to decide because of the possibilities. They will also want to see where other horses go. At this stage the Ryanair could potentially be tougher to get prize money from than the Queen Mother.

[bowles10]

Re: Why do trainers campaign horses over the wrong distance?

It should be remembered that these people are the trainers. It's the owners who get the final say in where a horse runs. The people who own the horse will have the ideas' date=' once conferring with the trainer. It's far to simplistic to think that a horse of this quality should decide where it is running for the festival at this stage when there are other dynamics to take in to consideration. They want to pre-long it's career at the top level. I think he would be suited to the Ryanair. That's my opinion but some owners are in no rush to decide because of the possibilities. They will also want to see where other horses go. At this stage the Ryanair could potentially be tougher to get prize money from than the Queen Mother.[/quote'] would disagree with some of this post , when does the owner enter the horse? its the trainer that picks the entry and does all the work, been there i am afraid. Yes the trainer may listen to the owners as they pay the wages, but the trainer has so much sway in where the horse goes. If somersby is good enough to win the Ryanair, run it, if they want 3rd place prize money in the QM, then i question their judgement