Pot odds etc. pair v flush draw

[primed]

Hi.......I've hardly ever posted before, but I'd be grateful for opinions on the following........ If i have a pocket pair, and i think i'm up against a flush draw on the flop, against one other player, and i bet the pot, he will clearly be getting 2/1 pot odds, and on that basis should call........ Assuming he doesn't make his flush on the turn, and assuming one of us folds after the river, then he might figure his implied odds as follows: Say 8 blinds in pot pre flop......I bet 8 on flop, he calls........I bet pot on turn (i.e. 24), then his implied odds are (8+8+24) / (8+24) = 40/32 = 1.25/1...... On that implied odds basis, he shouldn't call at all, however that doesn't take into account the chance of him making his flush on the turn.... Two questions then: 1. How do I include the chance of the flush on the turn to get a better understanding of his implied odds? 2. Should I, in this situation, bet 12 on the flop, making his pot odds of calling (20/12 = 1.67/1) inferior to his odds of making the flush (1.86/1)? thanks...

[averick]

Re: Pot odds etc. pair v flush draw

If i have a pocket pair, and i think i'm up against a flush draw on the flop, against one other player, and i bet the pot, he will clearly be getting 2/1 pot odds, and on that basis should call........ .... 2. Should I, in this situation, bet 12 on the flop, making his pot odds of calling (20/12 = 1.67/1) inferior to his odds of making the flush (1.86/1)?

You are making the assumption that he will get to see the river card for free. If betting the pot puts you all in, then he should call as he is getting the right odds, however there is no guarantee that you won't make a bet on the turn, so his pot odds should strictly be around 4.56 to 1 (assuming 9 outs). So even a 2/3 pot bet would suffice here, to make it wrong for him to call based on pot odds. Most of the time we are getting incorrect pot odds to call, which brings us to the topic of implied odds.

Say 8 blinds in pot pre flop......I bet 8 on flop, he calls........I bet pot on turn (i.e. 24), then his implied odds are (8+8+24) / (8+24) = 40/32 = 1.25/1...... On that implied odds basis, he shouldn't call at all, however that doesn't take into account the chance of him making his flush on the turn.... 1. How do I include the chance of the flush on the turn to get a better understanding of his implied odds?

I think you have misunderstood the concept of implied odds (do correct me if I was the one who misinterpreted his post) Here is a definition:

The ratio of the amount of money that is expected to be in the pot by the end of the hand compared to the amount of money required to call and maintain eligibility to win the pot, expressed with the expected pot amount first and calling amount second. Different from pot odds because implied odds account for possible additional wagers made on future betting rounds.

Example scenario: Cash game where you and opponent both have 100BBs. Taking your example of 8BBs preflop, if you bet the pot, opponent has to put in 8 BBs more to call. Pot size is now 24BBs. Assuming you will make a bet of 16BBs (doesn't matter whether you're in or out of position) on the turn regardless of whether he makes his flush, the pot size will now be 40BBs. So his implied odds will be 40/8 (expected pot/ amount needed to call) = 5/1, which will give him a right price to call on the flop. The above example applies quite a few assumptions, i.e. you will pay him off to a certain extent when he hits his flush, and that his hand will be the best hand at showdown etc, but this is just a theoretical example to help you better understand the concept :ok edit: just scrutinized your equation and found out where you went wrong: It should be (8+8+8+24) / (8) = 48/8 = 6/1 To answer question 1 the chances of him catching a flush on the turn is 18-20% so you can refer to my example to see how to calculate his implied odds. I'm not some math wizard so if any of you see any errors in my theoretical explanations / calculations do point it out:ok Hope my explanation was clear enough!