BAM Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 This hand has been bugging me for weeks and I can't get it out of my head so I was just wondering what you thought. It's a live hand (APAT Edinbugh) 10k starting chips 45 min blinds. I had quite a tight table with the one good player to my right so I played lots of pots and picked up to about £16K by the dinner break. After the dinner break I lost two pots to the table station when I flopped trips twice and he called me all the way to the river and binked a straight twice, so I'm back to 10K and the blinds at 300/150 with ante 25 but they are due to go to 400/200 with 50 ante. I'm in seat 2 and a new player comes to table in seat 5, he's folded about 6 hands and has about 8.5K and now he is in the BB. It's folded to me in the cut off I have KQ soooted I raise to 1000 reason - late position, tight table, passive button good chance to pick up the dead money and put the new guy to the test. Button folds, SB folds and he looks, takes a little time and calls. Flop comes JJ5 rainbow. He checks I fire out 2k He thinks a little then goes all in What would you do??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Putting him on an over pair to the 5 here.......6's 7's or maybe at worse, K5, A5 Id fold, plenty of play left and your a better player than making hero calls wether right orwrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? He thinks a little then goes all in What would you do??? Not too sure, could fold with my left hand or perhaps my right, difficult choice is do you do it instantly or after waiting to have the clock put on you and finally do you slide them over to the dealer or try one of those high lobbed floating folds. Even if he had "I'm at it " written on his fore head I'm still folding. (all very PL I know), but he's only been there for a few hands. You still have a semi-playable stack. If you made that call and were ahead well done but at least 9 times out of ten you would be behind and with 2 cards to come I doubt if you would be getting pot odds to any pair or ace high hand. Having said all that the very top players make these kind of calls but I think they need more info than just 6 hands to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaulc Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? one of those hands that could go either way and i find myself in a lot,usually losing so i am folding,,plenty of play to come yet. this reminds of of a hand i was in in the wsop 2007,and i had a voice in my head (yours actually) telling me there is no need to play any all-ins if i havent got the nuts:ok (mind you in this occasion i should have done because i found out later i would have doubled up) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? You're getting about 2-1? If you fold, you have about 7k left If you call and lose, you have about 1.5k left If you call and win, you're up to about 19k If he has a jack, AA or 55 then you're almost certainly beat. If he has a 5, then you're about 30%. If he has a pocket pair between 66 and JJ then you're about 27% If he has a pocket pair 22-44 then you're about 41% If he has an Ace (no Jack no 5), then you're about 24% If you are getting 2-1 then you need about 33% equity on his range for a "cash game" call - more if you include any value to your tournament life. There therefore needs to be a good chance of him holding an underpair to the 5, or to be completely bluffing without an ace. I dont think the odds on offer are anywhere enough to be calling, even if you are pretty confident he is bluffing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? You're getting about 2-1? If you fold, you have about 7k left If you call and lose, you have about 1.5k left If you call and win, you're up to about 19k If he has a jack, AA or 55 then you're almost certainly beat. If he has a 5, then you're about 30%. If he has a pocket pair between 66 and JJ then you're about 27% If he has a pocket pair 22-44 then you're about 41% If he has an Ace (no Jack no 5), then you're about 24% If you are getting 2-1 then you need about 33% equity on his range for a "cash game" call - more if you include any value to your tournament life. There therefore needs to be a good chance of him holding an underpair to the 5, or to be completely bluffing without an ace. I dont think the odds on offer are anywhere enough to be calling, even if you are pretty confident he is bluffing! Thats what I thought and I didnt even use a calculator;) I didnt really take into account that Bri would still have 1.5k left if losing which I suppose is something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? This is why I hate firing on a paired board. Against a BB caller you're gonna have to check trips here, therefore betting out leaves you open to a move in my opinion, if you're against a tricky or good player of course. I'm not a auto c-bettor (I'm not saying you are), not saying I give big pots up meekly, but sometimes there are other ways than firing the bog-standard flop bet, especially on a board like that. Switching the question I may check-shove in the BB with air, obviously you are thinking this could be a possibility here. Of course checking and hitting, or checking and getting creative on the turn can also get you into trouble. All in all I think you have to fold and take a walk around the room - which I'm pretty sure you did. One mistake I've made numerous times in the past is getting involved (when doing well) against a new player to the table. The last big tournament I played (the DS at DTD late last year) I blew up vs a brand new player. Was kicking myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? I would think you have to fold here. There is so little that you are ahead of and as has been stated above, you have a decent stack left if you fold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Putting him on an over pair to the 5 here.......6's 7's or maybe at worse' date=' K5, A5 [/quote'] Did run through my mind but I don't he'd call another 700 with K5 and maybe A5 Do they ;) Not really we are due to go up to 400/200 and I would have 7K left not a workable stack really only one 3bet bluff left in it. Spot on cash game scenario I would have probably called You need to get out more ;) Excellent points as usual but I have never been a cbet type of player, I saw a call preflop so I think I may be ahead, a flop that doesn't say much and a check from him, so my reasoning is I am probably still ahead so I cannot check behind or I will not have a clue where I am, so a healthy bet will take it down. Your second point is where I am leaning as if he does have any of that flop, why go all in?? I would have been a lot more wary of a call. There is a further point to this thread that I will mention later. The answers so far are FOLD which is pretty much what I expected from the info provided but hey we are in a live game - I don't have a timer ticking down and I can actually speak to the person across the table. Those of you who know me know that I like to talk a little at the table and this is not because I like you it is obviously all the time gathering me some information. So I sets off chatting to chap and he locks down - will not say a word and worse still will not make eye contact. I jibe him for not talking to me I say 'very nice bet' and pick up my cards as if to muck (no intention), he finally looks at me with a draining sense of relief on his face. Now I have eye contact so I put my cards back down, pick up my chips and say 'but unfortunately for you your bet doesn't make any sense' suddenly I can see a panick setting in.... Armed with this further information what would you do ???? and let me switch the original question around - Stupid Fold or Hero Fold?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? I would still fold :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Dont think you know that much more than you did before. Obviousley he isnt super strong but you knew that any way. I would still have him on at least a pair or an ace high hand which you are well behind the worry in his face is most likely that he thinks you have a bigger ace or higher pair. You did after all raise preflop. Personally if I was him making an air move I would have allready decided to bet the flop no matter what fell rather than check raising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Looking deeper into this, the question you should be asking yourself is, Can you play sufficiently better with 19k chips than 7k for the call to be worth the gamble. Personaly its even money I'm on 14k with either of these stacks in an hours time, are you confident enough that your 19k will be worth 25k+ in an hours time? I wouldnt be which makes the fold far easier. If your super confident you can run over the table then you are getting the odds to call. The one thing I learned at the WSOP was the difference between ok players and great players was the calls they made, not the folds. Also I started a thread a while back about a play by sn8wman(a top online tourney player) who took an apparently massive risk mid tourney to accumulate a stack he could run over his table with. Perhaps this is the sign of greatness and your nearly there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? This is the kind of scenario as to why poker will always be profitable. Either he's check shoving with air in a terrible spot at a terrible time or you're over-thinking the hand and calling off a tournament stack with just K high. 'Higher level thinking' or not there's always better spots that come about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Armed with this further information what would you do ???? Still a fold for me - even a hand that is weak enough to have him worried is too strong for two overcards (king high) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Just seems like a pretty obvious fold to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Still a fold for me - even a hand that is weak enough to have him worried is too strong for two overcards (king high) Its a live game so unless the guys a potential oscar winner lets rule out uber strength. Would it be fair to put a figure of 28% on your chances against his range including total air? Assuming it is you are not getting the "correct" odds to call but is it worth gambling the missing 5% on plan A. The belief you can use your large stack to accumulate lots of chips. Plan B involves the dynamics of short stack play and we all know it is far from impossible to turn 1500 chips into 7000 in fact its a lot easier to get it in ahead with a short stack. Something I've been meaning to start a thread on for a while is calling ranges as over the last couple of years online I have, and we all are getting called down by all kinds of crap. I am of course still folding but some one who is better than me(everyone) with a large stack might think the gamble worthwhile. And its not your tourney life its one blind steal and a double up and your semi playable again from 1500 chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Ed you're my hero :notworthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Just seems like a pretty obvious fold to me. may I ask why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? may I ask why? You've seen him fold 6 hands, don't have any read on him. And I haven't looked through the stats that people have posted in this thread but you basically never have him crushed, but sometimes he has you crushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Now read the part of the thread where you give further information, now it's a close thing, but he's still making this move with better air than you have a lot of the time. obviously you just go with your gut feeling on this one, does your air beat his air enough of the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedinight7 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? the cbet failed its job, and id be finished with the hand, and you have no information on the player, id happily fold, and make a note, and wait to try wait to see the range of hands and style the new player inputs to the table.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? the cbet failed its job' date=' and id be finished with the hand, and you have no information on the player, id happily fold, and make a note, and wait to try wait to see the range of hands and style the new player inputs to the table..[/quote'] Yeah, me too. You still have a decent size of chips, enough to play one big hand, just need to make sure you win it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 Re: Stupid Call or Hero Call? Well one person got it which makes me feel warm inside :) FWIW I did fold but I never recovered but upon refection I believe it was a bad fold and the type that can cost you your MTT life just as much as the bad calls. I wont elaborate, thread done, thanks for your input :clap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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