chatoman Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Hi people I've been playing poker for almost three years now (mostly MTTs) but im such a fish for cash games, i just dont know how to beat them. I win some days, some other days i lose what i've won the days before, so my net profit i guess is aprox 0.00 ... IM PLAYING ONLY FOR THE FUN OF GIVING RAKE!!!!!! :cow So, i really need to improve that part of my game because if i want to move up levels in my MTTs, i think i need a steady income and that should come from cash games. So, i deposited U$600 at VC Poker to take advantage of their 100% new deposit bonus and i will play 8 NL20 tables and lets see where i get (I hope NL100, thats my goal). I will move up levels whenever i get to 80 buyins of the next level (If i dont lose the U$600 on the process) so lets see how this works. I want to know if theres another MTT player interested in doing this, so that way we can improve ourselves in this cash scenario. And of course, if theres a lot of us interested the mutual feedback would make us great cash players. I want to try this challenge here because PL is such a friendly forum filled of good players and for what i've saw... mostly winners!!! Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Oh.. and another thing... when i played cash games a while ago, i used to win at a decent rate, but now the tables are so tight that i think i need a complete different approach. Here are the graphics of what im talking about. (Poker Tracker did all the dirty job of importing and looking into my hard drive to find these results) First..... The most recent one... at SUN POKER, where you can see the downhill all the way And this one was the old graphic at BETFRED where i was a winner back then P.S I compare like 10 different ipoker skins and VC have the best VIP program and the easiest bonus to clear. So.. Here we go... if by any chance you find me playing... Im ChatomanXIV at VCPoker (This challenge starts in May 2009) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugleh Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Good luck mate :hope I don't have the time for cash...and not the patience either I have found when I tried a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Very best of luck Chatoman, I look forward to reading your progress. I've given up, for now for sure, trying to make as much money at cash as I do in STTs and MTTs, so hats off for giving it a real go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Good luck mate :hope I don't have the time for cash...and not the patience either I have found when I tried a little bit. Hi Johan... Thats one of the reasons im trying to play cash, because you can hit the tables half an hour, 1 hour, 2 hours, 5 hours, it is up to you, instead of our beloved MTTs that take at least 3 or 4 hours to get where the real money is. Very best of luck Chatoman, I look forward to reading your progress. I've given up, for now for sure, trying to make as much money at cash as I do in STTs and MTTs, so hats off for giving it a real go I agree with you Samba, when you play MTTs, theres the possibility of winning 50 times, 80 times, 100 times or 200 times!! the buyin, theres no way of doing that via cash games, you cant sit with U$20 and leave with U$2000, not even in your wildest dreams. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppie Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 :(:wall Only play cash sporadically. Now i'm thinking of it,why did you have to put me in the title. Good luck with it:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Good luck Chato - will follow with interest :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Good luck Chato - will follow with interest :ok Hi GaF, now i have the results for days 1 and 2. Im thinking about posting the leaks im finding in my game so that way i can motivate someone to try this along with me ;) . As we talked a while ago, im not a book player but more of an instinct player, but now i realized that i have to take the cash games more seriously and im doing analysis after all the sessions in order to see what are the biggest leaks of my game. After analyzing the stats from my losing sessions at sun poker i noticed one of my biggest problems were the pro shorties (Shortstack Strategy), i just hate those guys.. thats not poker at all !!!, no skill involved, so i was trying to crack them and calling them preflop with marginal hands in order to beat them..... BIG MISTAKE So.. here's the graphic from day one So here's my first tought on Shorties.... if i hate them so much, why im giving them my money??? After a review on PT3 i realized i should only give them action with QQ+ ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 . My first session went pretty good for me (I was almost U$70 on the red) because i managed to win at least U$5 (plus U$10 from the bonus money). I've found another thing that truly amazed me... I filtered all my hands where i raised and someone made a 3 bet (except AA, KK and QQ) and i was losing money EVERYTIME!!!!. So, from now on... Im not calling 3 bets with marginal hands. So, the action points until now are: a) Hand selection against the pro shorties (Only QQ+) b) Not calling 3 bets with marginal hands (AJ, AT, KQs, KJs, etc) Here's the graphic from day two Now im almost U$100 in profit, including U$25 bonus money that i've cleared so far. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppie Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Moving this to the cash forum mate although it covers both best in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzai Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Thanks for posting this, it's an interesting read for a non-cash player like myself. I'm particularly interested in the way your finding leaks, keep on posting and I will keep on reading. I suspect a lot of your biggest leaks which you identify early on (short stackers aside) are applicable to STTs and MTTs too. Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 So here's my first tought on Shorties.... if i hate them so much, why im giving them my money??? After a review on PT3 i realized i should only give them action with QQ+ ... I'm not convinced that your interpretation here is right. The deeper the stacks, the stronger your hand needs to be to play for stacks. Against short stackers, they'll be shoving with a relatively wide range wont they? They play short stacked because they're not giving away implied odds. Obviously it depends on the player, but in general I'm probably calling short stackers more lightly than I'm calling deep stacked players. A short stacker can shove for a flip profitably if he has fold equity to collect the pot if everyone folds. We should be able to calculate some simple ev with a few basic assumptions? Lets say: - we're Heads Up - Short stack is in the big blind - we are in the small blind - everyone folds to us - effective stack size is 15xBB What range do you think we should raise (assume to 3xBB) with? (we'll say it's raise or fold) What range do you think the short stack should shove all in with? (again - we'll say only options are shove or fold) What range do you think you should call the shove with? I think that with those three ranges (and with the assumptions) I should be able to work out an ev :unsure Then we can play with some different ranges and see if we can improve on it :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 All the best with this. Regards short stackers are you playing short handed or full ring here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Thanks for posting this, it's an interesting read for a non-cash player like myself. I'm particularly interested in the way your finding leaks, keep on posting and I will keep on reading. I suspect a lot of your biggest leaks which you identify early on (short stackers aside) are applicable to STTs and MTTs too. Good Luck. Hey Banzai, thanks for reading... (And by the way.. im not a cash player either, im basically a MTT player) And yes... for example, the 3 bet calling range applies to MTTs specially when the blinds scalate, because theres no implied odds to justify some of these calls (I tought there was on the cash games, but actually nope from what im seeing) All the best with this. Regards short stackers are you playing short handed or full ring here? Im playing 8 tables NL20 Fullring at VC Poker (Ipoker), and playing Deepstack in everytable The deeper the stacks, the stronger your hand needs to be to play for stacks. I couldnt agree more, when it comes to play for the whole stack, the hand should be a pretty solid one, when it comes for value betting, i think it depends more on the player and the position, than the actual hand itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Im playing 8 tables NL20 Fullring at VC Poker (Ipoker), and playing Deepstack in everytable Dont ipoker have tables with a minimum of 50xBB or 100xBB buy in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Against short stackers, they'll be shoving with a relatively wide range wont they? They play short stacked because they're not giving away implied odds. Obviously it depends on the player, but in general I'm probably calling short stackers more lightly than I'm calling deep stacked players. A short stacker can shove for a flip profitably if he has fold equity to collect the pot if everyone folds. I've found that most of these pro-shorties plays several tables at once (Maybe more than the 8 im playing) and they are what we can call NITS. And yes, they play SSS (Short Stack Strategy) both because theyre not giving away implied odds but also because they dont have any skill at all (My personal point of view). Here's how i get to that conclusion about the shorties: I put all the hands that PT3 found in my computer and i filtered by one action 4 BET, and when i get the results, it was pretty clear for me that MOST of the time, when i called them with AA, KK, QQ it was profitable, however, the rest of the hands AQ, AJ, ATs, KQs, KJs, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77 wasnt so profitable and most of the time i was dominated (Best case scenario was a flip coin.. and who wants a best case scenario of 51% ?? ) Normally shorties play only these hands AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK and AQ and when you raise.. they 3bet or just shove allin (Mostly 3bet, so i made the 4bet thats equivalent to their allin) Of course there are some maniac shorties but you can spot them easily and of course you can call them lightly say with AQ or AJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 We should be able to calculate some simple ev with a few basic assumptions? Lets say: - we're Heads Up - Short stack is in the big blind - we are in the small blind - everyone folds to us - effective stack size is 15xBB What range do you think we should raise (assume to 3xBB) with? (we'll say it's raise or fold) What range do you think the short stack should shove all in with? (again - we'll say only options are shove or fold) What range do you think you should call the shove with? I think that with those three ranges (and with the assumptions) I should be able to work out an ev :unsure Then we can play with some different ranges and see if we can improve on it :) This is very interesting... but i have actually no experience with tracking software, so im guessing im doing the most basical filtering (Altough even those have found leaks... just imagine the most advanced ones) When im HU in war of the blinds with shorties, i raised them a lot of course, i just dont pay them unless i have a real hand (these regular shorties play too tight; in a few days ill post some of their stats just to prove that point) Yes... it is raise or fold against them, and i think the raise are justified with any good A, 2 letters, pockets and hands like those. The regular shorties that stick firmly to the SSS strategy will only raise/shove AJs+ and pockets 88+ I think we should only call the shove of one of these shorties with AQ+ and TT+ on war of the blinds (Again, if its a regular shortie), however, if its not war of the blinds, we should stick to AA, KK, QQ, AK and maybe Jacks and Tens just if they have a PR bigger than 8%. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Dont ipoker have tables with a minimum of 50xBB or 100xBB buy in? Yes, but if we only play these tables, we will be making a mistake and that is TABLE SELECTION. When i get into the waiting list, i first select the tables based on the % of players on the flop and then on the Average Pot. And of course, i NEVER join the waiting list on a table that has less than U$140 of total money (U$14 for player), for example, those tables filled with SSS with total money of U$60 or U$80. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 I'm just looking through the Boss Benchmarking data. I have filtered by "Facing all-in pre flop", "Pot Size Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Here are the results for day three (Remember im in South America and only played on the evening cause i got so tied up at work :) ) I think one of the best things im seeing so far is how easy is to clear the bonus, only 300pp for each U$5 and playing 8 tables you can redeem them pretty fast. Im still working in a thing im trying to do right now.... less flat calling and more 3 betting with good hands in position (not necessarily premium; im talking about JJ, TT, AJs, KQs, ATs, 99 and 88). At least that worked today, cause im winning a lot more preflop being positionally aware. Oh.. and another thing.... every time i raise garbage early trying to get creative... i just get my ass :spank and end up losing money. So, from now on, no more creative raises with SC from early positions. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 After reviewing my hands on Sunpoker and this sample on VC poker, these are the partial conclusions: a) Hand Selection against the SSS (Only QQ+). b) Not calling 3 bets with marginal hands (AJ, AT, KQs, KJs, SC, etc). c) Less cold call and more 3 betting with good hands on position. d) Stop trying to be creative from early positions. See you tomorrow :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul176 Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12157664 A thread on playing against shortstacks there if you're interested Chatoman. Best thing I've found on anti short stack strategy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12157664 A thread on playing against shortstacks there if you're interested Chatoman. Best thing I've found on anti short stack strategy! Ty very much Paul... great article, and the best part.... KNOW YOUR SHORTIES!!!!, when i said you should only called them with QQ+ i was talking about those GOOD shortstackers, BAD shortstackers are free money as they say in the article. Now we're going into day four, the graphic looks pretty good BUT i have to say the downswing is coming!!! :wall . Because im on another time zone my last few hundred hands, (the tough ones), wont count until tomorrow, when i have to start with almost U$40 on the red side... that just sucks!!! I had two big badbeats today.... KK vs QQ on a rag flop and these guys hit their Q on the river BOTH TIMES!!!. :puke Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Day five ended and i the badbeats kept coming my way, thank god the bonus release is so fast :) This is the graphic until day five, and it doesnt look bad, but it should look better, thats for sure. The lovely hands from today were: AA vs AK allin preflop..... x x K x K QQ vs K9 allin preflop ..... 8 8 9 9 x Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppie Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Ouch the above hands but still going well mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 The lovely hands from today were: AA vs AK allin preflop..... x x K x K QQ vs K9 allin preflop ..... 8 8 9 9 x They are profitable hands :ok Forget the cash flow - you made money :ok Be happy. Keep getting it in like that and your profit graph will be going up :up (oh it is ;) ) Celebrate when you get AA or QQ all in pre flop and are called by an inferior hand. You dont even need to watch what happens next, it really doesnt matter to you - focus on your other tables Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 Celebrate when you get AA or QQ all in pre flop and are called by an inferior hand. You dont even need to watch what happens next' date=' it really doesnt matter to you - focus on your other tables[/quote'] Thats funny and sooo true. When i get that an AIPF i basically forget the other tables and concentrate and almost PRAY that the badbeat wont come and sometimes i just get sitout on the others losing big opportunities (cash noob i guess) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul176 Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 I love your attitude to bad beats GaF. Its definately the right one. I definately don't have it though! I accept them as part of the game and all but I still hate the losing part! Are you playing full ring or 6max for this Chatoman? Seems to be going well shame about the little downswing but they happen (just got out of a 4k breakeven run myself :cow). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgey Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 I'm still trying to master cash games after numerous attempts at trying so it's nice to read about another player's cash venture. Impressive start mate, hope it continues to go well. Does your grpah include the released bonus amounts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Can a fish beat the cash games?? From NL20 to NL100 I'm still trying to master cash games after numerous attempts at trying so it's nice to read about another player's cash venture. Impressive start mate' date=' hope it continues to go well. Does your grpah include the released bonus amounts?[/quote'] Nope, i dont know how to include those in the PT graphics, do you know how to do it? or maybe GaF? Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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