AJ Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 PokerStars Game #24286222707: Tournament #136504882, $10.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2009/01/26 2:11:59 ET Table '136504882 1' 10-max Seat #10 is the button Seat 1: RM-300 (1945 in chips) Seat 2: kdjyahtzee (1975 in chips) Seat 3: afakasi11 (3588 in chips) Seat 5: kohsamet (1310 in chips) Seat 6: airman63 (937 in chips) Seat 7: asjohnstone (1850 in chips) Seat 8: jgwenn (880 in chips) Seat 9: Ugignadl (1710 in chips) Seat 10: jbh0711 (805 in chips) RM-300: posts the ante 15 kdjyahtzee: posts the ante 15 afakasi11: posts the ante 15 kohsamet: posts the ante 15 airman63: posts the ante 15 asjohnstone: posts the ante 15 jgwenn: posts the ante 15 Ugignadl: posts the ante 15 jbh0711: posts the ante 15 RM-300: posts small blind 75 kdjyahtzee: posts big blind 150 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to asjohnstone [Ks Ah] afakasi11: folds kohsamet: folds airman63: folds asjohnstone: raises 600 to 750 jgwenn: raises 115 to 865 and is all-in Ugignadl: folds jbh0711: folds RM-300: folds kdjyahtzee: raises 1095 to 1960 and is all-in asjohnstone: ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen1000 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... I'm calling this pretty quickly you've already put in 40% of your chips. You are probably racing but your only left with 900 if you fold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... This is just an obvious call. You have to call, there is little skill in this tournament - the stacks are just so shallow. Your pot odds are 3.47/1 which is huge, and you only have to beat one player (the larger stack) to make this profitable. Just such an easy call to win the 3800 in the pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgey Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Why such a big raise? 450 would have done the same job. If you get jgwenn coming over the top then it's an instacall (I'm assuming that's what you wanted), but then when the 2nd player goes all in it's an easier fold as you're not pot committed. As it is I think you may as well chuck the rest of them in. The large raise says to me you're prepaired to go all the way with this hand so it's a bit late to fold now. Although folding still leaves you 1100ish which is plenty to cash from there. I'm going round in circles here! :lol But if you only raise to 450 initially you have a much easier decision IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Yeah the raise is huge. When the blinds are this big in relation to stacks, the standard raise is 2.5x bb not 5x bb!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Is this a DoN, or a regular STT, AJ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgey Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Is this a DoN' date=' or a regular STT, AJ?[/quote'] I would assume this is a DoN turbo as that's what AJ is playing in his challenge thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... I would assume this is a DoN turbo as that's what AJ is playing in his challenge thread. If it were a DoN, I assume he'd have said, since it makes such a big difference? :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugleh Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Surely DoN as can be seen from the low rake: "$10.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit". Don't think Stars have anything else than DoN STTs with the low rake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgey Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... If it were a DoN' date=' I assume he'd have said, since it makes such a big difference? :unsure[/quote'] I wouldn't be so sure. He's played over 300 DoN's in his challenge so I would assume this is from one of those. :unsure The reduced rake is cos it's a turbo not cos it's a DoN. Anyway, I've hijacked AJ's thread enough now. Guess we'll just have to wait for him to get up.....! :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Actually, I think sugleh must be right. I can't even find any non-DoN $10 turbo STTs on Stars, and their normal STTs seem to be all 9-player rather than 10-player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugleh Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... The reduced rake is cos it's a turbo not cos it's a DoN. The rake for the $6 non-DoN turbos is $0.50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgey Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... The rake for the $6 non-DoN turbos is $0.50. Fair enough - this must be a DoN then!!! :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Well, assuming it is a DoN then, I don't know :lol In a normal STT it is an easy call, you're priced in by opening 5xBB. What ranges do you put them on? That should make your decision for you? You only need to beat kdjahtzee to profit from the hand. I think he has a pocket pair, 99+, or even AK himself. I'd hope he had QQ and get the rest of them in there, and hope you spike a big card - though I imagine the short stack shove has one of the Aces you need. I do think you're priced in though, and if you lose to the big stack, so be it, move on to the next one, and make sure your next opening raise is sized right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen1000 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Well' date=' assuming it is a DoN then, I don't know[/quote'] I've only just found out what a DoN is:rollin. I actually though it was a MTT:$ TBH though you've still put to many chips in to fold. But as I've never played them I have no idea;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... yeah call from me too:ok like everyone else said i don't like the raise either, too big or too small. if your gonna call any all in then surely its better to push first(if it's a DoN:unsure)or the 450 raise will give you the same effect but its easier to fold because you'd be a lot healthier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Assuming it is a DoN (if not, easy call): I think it's tricky, and probably depends on what you know about kdjyahtzee (or about the general standard of players at this level if you have no particular information on him). There are regulars in some of the games I play who have aces or kings for his action, no question. (There are a few who have aces, no question!) If you think he's that tight in this position then it's an easy fold, of course. If not ... dunno ... I don't really like the initial raise size. I don't have any objection to an oversized opening raise when the blinds are small, to avoid awkward post-flop decisions if you let players in with speculative hands, but with 75/150 blinds I think a raise to about 400 should be enough to keep out the speculative hands. Alternatively, I don't think an all-in initial raise would be silly, considering the antes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Initial raise shouldn't really be any more than 400. I really dont know that much about DoNs but i still think that this must be a call with the chance to knock out two players as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Yeah, I think the chance of KO'ing (or close to dammit) 2 villains is another factor in calling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Is this a DoN' date=' or a regular STT, AJ?[/quote'] It's a DoN. I folded btw They both had AK and split the pot. What was worse, my preflop raise or kdjyahtzee's reraise all in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... I would say your preflop raise. If he has a read on you that you know how to play this format, then he probably thought there was a good chance you would fold - which you did. So you lost more than you needed to by the big preflop raise, and he achieved his objective of getting you to lay it down, so definitely your raise was the worst action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Neither your raise nor his re-raise was bad in principle. Your raise sizing was bad, but not the raise itself. Likewise i think that his reraise was still a good move, even more so because it is a DoN. I don't know much about these, but the more i read posts about them on this site, the more i think that aggressive play is even more important, as fold equity seems to be higher in these games. So both were just standard moves in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Sorry, forgot to add, i definately think you should have called pre-flop after investing so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... after investing so much. Sorry - cannot agree with this at all. Once you have put your money in the middle, it is no longer yours - it's spent. Who put what in the middle is not a factor in your deliberations. You are interested in how much more you need to put in the pot, how much you can win and what your perception is on your chances of winning (as well of course as other factors, such as your position in the tournament if you fold) - but you are not interested in how much you've invested in the pot already, because that money is already gone/spent.... You dont make a bad call (I'm not offering any opinion on the specific call in this specific case) where you dont think you're offered the right odds against your chance of winning because you've "invested so much" already - sometimes you need to swallow your pride and back down where it's the right thing to do..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Sorry - cannot agree with this at all. Once you have put your money in the middle, it is no longer yours - it's spent. Who put what in the middle is not a factor in your deliberations. You are interested in how much more you need to put in the pot, how much you can win and what your perception is on your chances of winning (as well of course as other factors, such as your position in the tournament if you fold) - but you are not interested in how much you've invested in the pot already, because that money is already gone/spent.... You dont make a bad call (I'm not offering any opinion on the specific call in this specific case) where you dont think you're offered the right odds against your chance of winning because you've "invested so much" already - sometimes you need to swallow your pride and back down where it's the right thing to do..... No i agree with that, its not what i meant. What i meant was he invested so much with that raise, that he forced the re-raise to commit himself. I.e. if the raise preflop was 385 or something, he could get away from the re-raise. But with the raise to 750, he left himself only 1000 and the pot odds were too big to fold. So i meant that the initial raise (or investment) was too big as it didn't allow him to fold. 5/1 pot odds or whatever they were is huge and makes folding much harder after the initial investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... What was worse, my preflop raise or kdjyahtzee's reraise all in. I'd say his reraise all-in, no question. Although I don't like your raise size, a lot of the time it will just pick up the blinds and it's not going to cost. But even if kdjyahtzee knows you're capable of folding, he must be worried that you'll call a large proportion of the time. And the short stack must know that you're going to call if nobody else gets involved, so his range is going to be pretty strong. If kdjyahtzee knew that you were going to call, then the pot odds might well justify what he did. But I doubt you need to be calling all that often to turn that around for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... I think that i see these games a different way to you slapdash. I see it that if people don't want to risk their chips, then by putting people to the test more often by putting them in is a good strategy. What do you think about that way of playing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... I think that i see these games a different way to you slapdash. I see it that if people don't want to risk their chips' date=' then by putting people to the test more often by putting them in is a good strategy. What do you think about that way of playing it?[/quote'] Let me give you a slightly extreme situation to illustrate the maths of these. Suppose there are six players left with equal chip stacks (so one more to be eliminated before the money) and suppose the blinds are small (OK, that's not realistic because the blinds will almost always be fairly large by the bubble). Suppose somebody goes all-in (OK, also not realistic if the blinds are small, but ...) and you have to decide whether to call. If you fold, all six are still in about the same situation, and five will cash, so you have about an 83% chance of cashing. If you call and lose, you're out. In you call and win, you cash. So you need about an 83% chance of winning for it to be right, which means that even if he's got a random hand, you need aces for it to be right to call. OK, in practice the stacks won't be equal and the blinds will be worth something, so it won't be quite that simple, but it illustrates the kind of extreme penalty there can be in these for actually getting to a showdown. Of course, you can't just not play a hand or you'll be blinded out (although I have cashed in a few of these without playing a hand!) What happens in practice is that when the blinds get large, players will steal the blinds to preserve their stacks. But every time you try to steal the blinds (and by this stage that often means going all-in), you risk somebody calling, which is usually a very bad outcome for you. A lot of the dead money in these is from people who call far too light at this stage ... makes it profitable, but you don't want them to be calling you! So I think the art of these is to steal the blinds when they get high, but not steal them too often, or else you're increasing the chance that it's you who's going to get called. So you do need to be aggressive, but pick the spots where you think it's least likely you'll get called. It's not a very glamorous game! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Re: Call or fold part whatever... Yeah, i suppose i'm talking about a game where the players are very aware of the situation, and are not going to be calling light Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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