Dodger Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 OK. Massive tournament, deep stack, big field...first hand (or still first level anyway). You look down at AA...but some spotty little bugger pushes all-in before you. I can't fold this...but there have been a few indications on here recently that to put your tournament life on the line so early, even with AA, is just not on.:unsure Aces are just too good to fold surely. If the aim is to get your chips in when ahead then I cannot see why anybody would be folding...You are 80% favourite against anything else. What I'm looking for is somebody who says they would fold to explain why. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. Against a single push ? Everyone would call. How many players to act after you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. I think that someone used the (highly unlikely) scenario of someone in the WSOP Main Event, the biggest event of their life. In the blinds with AA, and several people push all-in before you. In this situation, you are possibly 50/50 at best, and do you want to crash out first hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. Couldn't find the threads and was unsure of the exact scenarios. Can see your chances diminish with more than one opponent. But pre-flop I couldn't really imagine even the top pros folding AA...even if two before them have gone all-in. It's rather like ''I'll pass this chance to triple up, fold my AA and wait for a worse hand to play with later on!'' :loon The benefit of ending the hand as a big stack would outweigh the loss of your tournament seat...and even if you did bust out you would have a story to tell for some time to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. Depends how good you think you are I guess. I can perhaps see a top pro thinking they have the skill to do better and let it go. Not me though, I'd push Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodie Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. If you fold this I don't think you should be playing poker in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. ... It's rather like ''I'll pass this chance to triple up' date=' fold my AA and wait for a worse hand to play with later on!''...[/quote'] I don't think that is how a top pro would think. Rather something along the lines of "I am going to be 50/50 at best here (v. multiple all ins), there WILL be better spots later on where I can use my higher level of skill against these all in fools." ...that said, I doubt a pro would let it go. I am sure any tournament pro will tell you that the early stages of a tournament are for accumulating chips to use in the later stages - so a lost race v a shortie shove won't cripple you etc - and what better way to accumulate chips then entering a massive pot when you KNOW you are ahead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. I had just got it into my head, for some reason, that somebody was advocating not putting your seat on the line in the very early stages. Thankfully the above responses have reassured me that the call is the only move, assuming one opponent and probably with more than one. It's been nagging at me for a few days...but no longer! :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. I'll be really generous, and offer you 199/1 that you get dealt AA in your first hand in Manila :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runadrum Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. My very first live tournament - the Maxim Final at Cafe de Paris in London - very first hand, I was dealt AA. No-one pushed all-in before me so I didn't have that decision to make, but I know I wouldn't have been folding ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooloovoo Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. Seen in a poker context only, folding is a mistake, given the circumstances described (early on, etc). (Playing on the bubble in a seat satellite is a completely different story.) Seen in a personal context though, there are times when i would let AA go in this situation. If i ever was to win a WSOP ME package for example, then two things would bring personal satisfaction: The trip to Vegas in itself, and the athmosphere surrounding the event. The fact that i play in a legendary tournament with lots of poker pros. For me, if i were dealt AA in the first hand in the big blind and everyone fold to some nut in the small blind who shoves all-in, i would fold. I am 80% to win, but it would be worth more for me to stay in the tournament for a little while longer. If i had played for a couple of hours i would call. But it is an extreme example and will probably never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. But you WOULD leave the tourney with regrets. You spurned the opportunity to get an early double up, just to savour the experience a little longer. If I were ever to get to play the WSoP ME, I would go there intending to win it, push every edge, take every +EV opportunity that comes my way, $10k entry or not. If you don't go there to play your best poker, the there's no point in going. IMO :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooloovoo Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. If you don't go there to play your best poker' date=' the there's no point in going. IMO :)[/quote'] I believe you should always have a "game plan" ready when entering a tournament, especially WSOP ME. Then if you stick to the plan you have no reason to regret anything. As i pointed out, it IS a very personal decision how to weigh the different factors. Asking 10 people would probably yield 10 different answers. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. Folding is a mistake (in cash prize terms) and folding will cost you tournament ev and will cost you money (over a large enough sample). I think that is beyond dispute (for anyone who is not a pro and doesn't have a HUGE edge on the field). The argument for folding is one of sacrificing ev, in order to try and limp into the prize money positions because finishing 1000th out of 10,000 players is a substantial amount of money for you. If you even consider folding AA, then you are playing way out of your comfort zone, way beyond a level where you can play your best poker, and way beyond a level where (given enough attempts) you can make a profit (becuase you're scared money and sacrificing too much ev in order to try and win "minor" prizes). If I were playing in WSOP or something, I would want to play my best poker, my most profitable poker, even if it means I have to risk being eliminated in the first hand. In satellites/coolers/Double or Nothings - it is completely different and folding aces pre flop can be the correct, prize maximising, decision, but that is a different scenario (and, even in that situation, folding Aces pre flop, in the first hand, is probably still an error). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooloovoo Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. The argument for folding is one of sacrificing ev' date=' in order to try and limp into the prize money positions[/quote'] This was not my argument for folding, it was about prolonging the experience of a once-in-a-lifetime-event. EDIT: ...or maybe you weren't commenting my post :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. Dodger - have you got any more questions before you fly off to Manila? :lol ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppie Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. I wouldn't fold AA 1st hand. There will be good/great players there but also a lot of donks so if you dont get AA 1st hand give yourself a chance to get settled in and work out who is who:ok Last but not least bring it home:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. Folding is a mistake (in cash prize terms) and folding will cost you tournament ev and will cost you money (over a large enough sample). I think that is beyond dispute (for anyone who is not a pro and doesn't have a HUGE edge on the field). I'm absolutely sure nobody is THAT good! There's a passage in Mathematics of Poker where they estimate how much chip equity a good player should be willing to give up in situations like this because of his skill edge, and I've read something similar by Greg Raymer. They both come to the conclusion that it's doubtful that anybody is even good enough that they should voluntarily pass up the opportunity to play QQ for all their chips against AK on the first hand of a large MTT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattywallace121 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. you've got to call, dont care if its the 1st hand of wsop me or a home game shove them in and fist pump if they show anything expect the other two bullets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. This was not my argument for folding, it was about prolonging the experience of a once-in-a-lifetime-event. EDIT: ...or maybe you weren't commenting my post :unsure I was responding generally - not specifically to your post :ok However, to respond directly to your post :tongue2 - what kind of WSOP (once in a life time) experience do you have if you are so scared, so timid, that you cannot even put your chips in the middle pre flop with aces? You'll regret it for years (especially in the reasonably likely scenario that you dont actually go on to cash) - and have you really had the WSOP expecrience, or did you avoid it? If I put it all in with Aces pre flop and get called by Kings and the King comes and I'm knocked out first hand - I really can take huge satisfaction from having got it in good, KNOWING I made the right choice and having played the hand perfectly. :) You talk of "The fact that i play in a legendary tournament with lots of poker pros" - but are you playing with them if you're that scared? I think we broadly agree (you accept it's a poker mistake) - I just could never get myself to deliberately do what I know is wrong in poker terms, especially on the biggest stage..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted January 22, 2009 Author Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. Hey I'm not expecting AA first hand...but it would be nice! Remember watching one of the late night poker games and they said Doyle Brunson had been sat there for 2 hours without playing a hand. Ever since then I have followed the general line that you can't win any money early on...so save the fancy moves for the later stages...there is no rush to get involved early and that's how I'll play it...maybe. Anyway I need to get to lunch at least on the first day as they serve a free dinner for all current players...I ain't missing out on that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. I believe you should always have a "game plan" ready when entering a tournament, especially WSOP ME. Then if you stick to the plan you have no reason to regret anything. What kind of game plan? (For the record, I'm not 'picking' on you, lol, I'm just always interested in other's views/ideologies/approaches, so want to understand where you'er coming from :ok) What game plan can you have before any given tourney other than 'I am going to play my best poker'? If there are factors extraneous to, what can we call it, hmm - the 'art of poker'? I don't know. Anyway, if there are outside factors, such as wanting to 'savour' the experience, impinging on your ability to play to the best of your poker ability, then there's no point in playing. Game plans should evolve throughout the tournament as variables change, situations occur, opponents change, blinds go up etc etc. Going into a tourney with a set fixed strategy can only hinder - again, this is only my opinion, and I accept others may see it differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGremlin Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. Maybe he means adopting your "game plan" to number of players, starting chips, blinds structure and payout structure.... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. I can understand where HooLooVoo is coming from in not wanting to ruin the whole experience by busting out on the first hand. In terms of the question asked, I admit that I would call (even at the WSOP ME) because it is mathematically correct, but I do see where he is coming from.:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooloovoo Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. For the record' date=' I'm not 'picking' on you[/quote'] I know :ok This seem to be the common opinion in here, but I disagree. If wer'e talking WSOP ME, it's only logic, choosing between two things: A) Play optimal poker and having X% risk of being busted during the first hour B) Play non-optimal poker and having less than X% risk of being busted during the first hour If i value option B higher than A, then B is the logical choice. As stated earlier, it's an extreme situation, but the evaluation is personal based on individual preferences. I would never enter a tourney with a set fixed strategy. I am talking about having a general game plan, including topics such as: - Will i play "classic" (tight first, loosen up later on) or will i play "backwards" (start out aggressively, trying to accumulate chips) - Number of entrants - Payout structure - Blind structure - and so on... When at the table, there are a lot of things that will have an impact on your initial strategy, e.g. type of players %>When i say you should have a game plan ready when you sit down at a tournament, i mean that you should weigh in ALL factors surrounding that particular tournament, and create a strategy/game plan according to these factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. A wise old poker grandmaster once told me 'in order to be a truly great poker player you have to be willing to fold the nuts' He then went onto to explain answers to questions like the one on this thread once you realise and truly understand the reasons and logic behind questions like this your poker journey is complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. A wise old poker grandmaster once told me 'in order to be a truly great poker player you have to be willing to fold the nuts' He then went onto to explain answers to questions like the one on this thread once you realise and truly understand the reasons and logic behind questions like this your poker journey is complete. Ah, so! Brian: the Kung Fu Panda of PL poker. :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. If there is a player bad enough to just push all in on the first hand like that then you should fold.........if a player that bad is at your table then you have a big edge over him and there is no need to put yourself at risk like that in the first hand..........obviously if you are a terrible player then you should call! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. i think hoo has made some good points in some respects but maybe round the wrong way. if you are in a tourney vs the best in the world(which the ME isn't really as theres a lotta bad as well as good)then surely your better off pushing/calling an all in,as your less likely to outplay your opposition. however if you are playing donks then you have a better chance to outplay them ,so it would then become less viable to call. i notice quite a few big name players have started advocating more smallball poker ,maybe for this reason:unsure either way i would be calling tho i think:ok as with any tourney you have to take your chances along the way and this would be hard to pass up ,unless a lot of the table goes all in in front of you:eek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Why you would fold AA first hand. Theres no way im calling with 3 or more players all in on the first hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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