Suggestions

[daftpegasus]

I have only just seen this forum and have a few suggestions for it. Firstly I suggest that you either unlock the Rules & Suggestions sticky so that suggestions can be posted there, or, remove the reference to suggestions so people use an alternative method like this:tongue2 Secondly it would be helpful if people gave a brief history of their experience. Whilst we know the ability of many of you guys there are always going to be people where we don't know just how good you are. As an example I know that Morls has won over 100 MTT's which would give me confidence in my investment. I haven't played against Geordie Gaz enough to have an opinion of his ability (no offence intended at all Gaz) hence it would be harder to invest. Currently the level of investment is small so it's not a big problem, but if this forum is to grow then so must the investments and buy-in's. Thirdly it would be helpful if people gave a brief history of their experience of the tournament in question. For example if someone posted that they'd played tournament A for the past 4 weeks, the average number of players was 60, the average players paid was top 10 and for the past 4 weeks you'd got to the FT then the stakers have an idea what to expect.

[morlspin]

Re: Suggestions stickied it for you!

[GaF]

Re: Suggestions While we're on suggestions ....It looks to me like the standard request is for 50% regardless of anything (though I know Mr I has gone away from that :ok) - If I were to invest in someone, I'd only really do it if I believed in a positive ev on my return (else I'd invest in games for myself ;) )- nothing against the playing abilities of GeordieGaz/Morl/Mr I, but I believe all of the propositions so far are negative ev - it doesn't look a problem because they have got their money (well 2 out of 3 so far) - but I'm not sure how sustainable it is ..... should players not be starting off in low stakes games (which they are :ok), but offering a larger percentage back (100% initially?) until they've "proven" that they can provide a return to investors - as reputation increases then they can ask for larger stakes and offer lower equity....

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Suggestions

While we're on suggestions ....It looks to me like the standard request is for 50% regardless of anything (though I know Mr I has gone away from that :ok) - If I were to invest in someone' date=' I'd only really do it if I believed in a positive ev on my return (else I'd invest in games for myself ;) )- nothing against the playing abilities of GeordieGaz/Morl/Mr I, but I believe all of the propositions so far are negative ev - it doesn't look a problem because they have got their money (well 2 out of 3 so far) - but I'm not sure how sustainable it is ..... should players not be starting off in low stakes games (which they are :ok), but offering a larger percentage back (100% initially?) until they've "proven" that they can provide a return to investors - as reputation increases then they can ask for larger stakes and offer lower equity....[/quote'] Agree with Gaf? I thought 50% was too low. Wasn't sure how high to go really as I haven't done this before:unsure.

[morlspin]

Re: Suggestions

While we're on suggestions ....It looks to me like the standard request is for 50% regardless of anything (though I know Mr I has gone away from that :ok) - If I were to invest in someone' date=' I'd only really do it if I believed in a positive ev on my return (else I'd invest in games for myself ;) )- nothing against the playing abilities of GeordieGaz/Morl/Mr I, but I believe all of the propositions so far are negative ev - it doesn't look a problem because they have got their money (well 2 out of 3 so far) - but I'm not sure how sustainable it is ..... should players not be starting off in low stakes games (which they are :ok), but offering a larger percentage back (100% initially?) until they've "proven" that they can provide a return to investors - as reputation increases then they can ask for larger stakes and offer lower equity....[/quote'] when you look at it from the players side of things, a 100% share deal is - ev for them...... if the game was in newcastle and i was being fully staked, id give 70% back as per my usual stakings however my request is for a game i have to travel to brighton to play....which will cost me money out of my own pocket, so for that i beleive 50% is ok......

[BAM]

Re: Suggestions I've staked Andy Ward for the EPT London he's playing the main and a side total £7000 and he's offering 1% of his winning for a £90 stake. A different way round of doing the maths but gives you an idea of the percentages involved :ok

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Suggestions

Secondly it would be helpful if people gave a brief history of their experience. Whilst we know the ability of many of you guys there are always going to be people where we don't know just how good you are. As an example I know that Morls has won over 100 MTT's which would give me confidence in my investment. I haven't played against Geordie Gaz enough to have an opinion of his ability (no offence intended at all Gaz) hence it would be harder to invest. Currently the level of investment is small so it's not a big problem, but if this forum is to grow then so must the investments and buy-in's.

I agree that a background of the player would be helpful but as mentioned by Morls in an earlier thread.... if you want to know about player's abilities/successes etc... then carry out a bit of research. For example if someone wanted to know how successful someone was then they could check sharkscope, get opinions from fellow players, check blogs etc... etc...

While we're on suggestions ....It looks to me like the standard request is for 50% regardless of anything (though I know Mr I has gone away from that :ok) - If I were to invest in someone' date=' I'd only really do it if I believed in a positive ev on my return (else I'd invest in games for myself ;) )- nothing against the playing abilities of GeordieGaz/Morl/Mr I, but I believe all of the propositions so far are negative ev - it doesn't look a problem because they have got their money (well 2 out of 3 so far) - but I'm not sure how sustainable it is ..... should players not be starting off in low stakes games (which they are :ok), but offering a larger percentage back (100% initially?) until they've "proven" that they can provide a return to investors - as reputation increases then they can ask for larger stakes and offer lower equity....[/quote'] You've also got to look at it from the players perspective though. There's no way I'm going to play a tournament for 8 hours with no chance of getting anything back from it myself.

[morlspin]

Re: Suggestions What i can add to this is that if anyones share deal looks undervalue or not worth it, then please, post up and let the staker know, at the end of the day were on a learning curve at the moment and we will learn from our mistakes and attempt to make the staking forum a good one for all of us!

[morlspin]

Re: Suggestions

I've staked Andy Ward for the EPT London he's playing the main and a side total £7000 and he's offering 1% of his winning for a £90 stake. A different way round of doing the maths but gives you an idea of the percentages involved :ok

If im picking this up correctly, hes getting £9000 for a £7000 share deal and he gets to play in 2 big EPT events and makes £2000 gtd...... Mind you, if he wins 1st place he has to give all his winnings away but should get a few sponsors out of it

[GaF]

Re: Suggestions

What i can add to this is that if anyones share deal looks undervalue or not worth it' date=' then please, post up and let the staker know, at the end of the day were on a learning curve at the moment and we will learn from our mistakes and attempt to make the staking forum a good one for all of us![/quote'] Well, I didn't want to labour the point, so was going to leave it there, but this is too good an offer turn down :tongue2 Looking at your Poker Player staking (and I could just as easily have looked at GeordieGaz or MrI's with the same conclusion.....) Investors are buying a 1% share at £0.55 (although we're talking ridiculously small amounts - I'll do all calculations for 1 share). For their share, they get 50% of the 50p that goes in the prize pool ( = £0.25) (by the way - just looking in the mag - buy in is £50 + £3.50) There are 100 seats and £5000 prize money guaranteed. I'm assuming it will be full, so the guarantee doesnt come into play. There is also 25% of 1% of 1% of £1000 (??) GUKPT seat to be added - so that's another £0.025 in value. So each £0.55 share is buying £0.275 in equity, ev assuming noone has a skill advantage is exactly 50% of investment. I know you would claim a skill edge over the field - but how much? TO claim to have double the ev in the tourney to the average player (which would allow investors to break even, but not make a profit) would, IMO, be a pretty bold claim. Remember as well, that this is a tourney organised by a specialist mag on the game - so you shouldn't expect to only see your average fish, but more aware players too..... I appreciate that there needs to be something in it for the player, but IMO there should be something in it for the investor too ;) A low stakes game with little added value (£10 per player) the entire length of the country away is probably not the ideal candidate for a staking request :unsure It is difficult to develop a proposition that is attractive to player and investor - to be able to find a mutually attractive proposition for player and investor, I would feel that there needs to be some (significant) added value? I would also say, that players shouldn't necessarily look for financial benefit from their first stakings :unsure which are to prove themselves so that they can get larger stakings (for lower equity) later - the benefit to the player is there (if they get the results) even though not necessarily immediately accrued.

[BAM]

Re: Suggestions

If im picking this up correctly, hes getting £9000 for a £7000 share deal and he gets to play in 2 big EPT events and makes £2000 gtd...... Mind you, if he wins 1st place he has to give all his winnings away but should get a few sponsors out of it

He's only selling 50% so will pay £2500 himself

[morlspin]

Re: Suggestions On the other hand Say i win the 1st prize of £1700 and give 50% away, thats £850/100= £8.50 per share. Say then i win the GUKPT event i play and get £100k and give £25k away, thats £25k/100= £25 a share If someones bought 20 shares in me that would give them a total of £170 for pp game £500 for guk game £670 total for an £11 share Yes were talking an extreme set of 2 wins here, but thats some return if it happens!

[morlspin]

Re: Suggestions

He's only selling 50% so will pay £2500 himself

:ok

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Suggestions

On the other hand Say i win the 1st prize of £1700 and give 50% away, thats £850/100= £8.50 per share. Say then i win the GUKPT event i play and get £100k and give £25k away, thats £25k/100= £25 a share If someones bought 20 shares in me that would give them a total of £170 for pp game £500 for guk game £670 total for an £11 share Yes were talking an extreme set of 2 wins here, but thats some return if it happens!

and something quite similar to this happened when I recently got staked. A guy bought shares for £5.50.... I cashed which meant his share was worth £16.50..... he told me to keep that and play another tourney which I won which meant his shares were worth £150.... he took £100 and told me to keep the rest for another tourney which I did.... and I cashed again and again.... and eventually his initial investment of £5.50 was turned into £307 overall. Obviously I had an incredible run for him to get that much but just goes to prove that it can happen! :ok And GAF, I can see what you're trying to say about -EV and all them calculations (which has totally confuddled me BTW :$) but what I will say is if someone doesn't think it's good value then don't stake that player.... it's their choice at the end of the day. :ok

[GaF]

Re: Suggestions

On the other hand Say i win the 1st prize of £1700 and give 50% away, thats £850/100= £8.50 per share.

Assuming no skill edge, you have a 1% chance of achieving that - the ev of the £8.50 is therefore £0.085 per share

Say then i win the GUKPT event i play and get £100k and give £25k away, thats £25k/100= £25 a share

Again assuming no skill edge (or defecit - which I think would be reasonable in a GUKPT event against mostly pro's :unsure) - I don't know how many runners - 500 odd? - would be 0.2% - so the chance of winning PP and GUKPT is 1% x 0.2% = 0.002% (or 1 in 50,000) - that is a long shot!!!

[GaF]

Re: Suggestions

but what I will say is if someone doesn't think it's good value then don't stake that player.... it's their choice at the end of the day. :ok

Agreed - you've had no problems getting the staking so far, so maybe it's just me :ok Whilst the demand is there for your shares, you should keep selling them :ok

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Suggestions

Assuming no skill edge, you have a 1% chance of achieving that - the ev of the £8.50 is therefore £0.085 per share Again assuming no skill edge (or defecit - which I think would be reasonable in a GUKPT event against mostly pro's :unsure) - I don't know how many runners - 500 odd? - would be 0.2% - so the chance of winning PP and GUKPT is 1% x 0.2% = 0.002% (or 1 in 50,000) - that is a long shot!!!

:eyes.... blooming hell GAF..... you gota super dooper calculator or what?? I'm starting to believe you are a machine!! :lol

[Burnley Joe]

Re: Suggestions When i sold shares in the Prague Festival, i had already bought in to the event, but did it cos Morls did it and it paid for some of the spending money! Anyway, it was about £550 for all 3 games so i sold 1 share at £5.50. I offered 75% of any winnings in all 3 torneys to all share holders and got lucky in the main event, plus i added any money for the overall league that was in play across the 3 events The return i paid out was £2700 so each shareholder got £27 each per share and i kept the rest of the winnings Everyone seemed happy, so it can work

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Suggestions

It is difficult to develop a proposition that is attractive to player and investor - to be able to find a mutually attractive proposition for player and investor, I would feel that there needs to be some (significant) added value? I would also say, that players shouldn't necessarily look for financial benefit from their first stakings :unsure which are to prove themselves so that they can get larger stakings (for lower equity) later - the benefit to the player is there (if they get the results) even though not necessarily immediately accrued.

tbh i dont think any of the players that have made requests need to prove themselves at all which is why i would have a punt on any of them. one idea i did have was maybe for larger tourneys we could add a future sponsered earnings deal. this could really benefit both backer and player. say a player wants to get backed into something out of their price range but that could lead to a possible sponsership deal in the future. for example say i wanted to buy into the wsope horse event. i had £1000 and wanted £1500 of backing of 150 x£10 shares. what if i offered 50% of the winnings plus 10% of all future sponsered tourney winnings?. if i managed to win or maybe even finish top 3 or so theres a good chance of picking up a sponsership deal. if the sponser buys me into x number of tourneys the backers would pick up 10% of the winnings from that as well:ok so although they dont get a full percentage from the winnings they also have the oppertunity to make a pretty large return over time. just seems like a good way to help players up the ladder but also offer possible big returns for a small stake for the investor .

[AA_Hall]

Re: Suggestions Was considering put a stake required for the PLWSOP PLO have already bought into this tournament so is it actually possible to do this thought i would ask rather than just post and look like a muppet

[morlspin]

Re: Suggestions

Was considering put a stake required for the PLWSOP PLO have already bought into this tournament so is it actually possible to do this thought i would ask rather than just post and look like a muppet

Can ask for a stake in anything mate, even if you've already bought in:ok However.....i dont think its wise to have a share deal against the players your playing against. It Increases the chances of soft play and collusion (i know were all not like that, but have to mention it)

[AA_Hall]

Re: Suggestions yeh good point m8 will come back when i have another idea thanks for the suggestion:ok

[Burnley Joe]

Re: Suggestions Well i wont be playing that one but would be willing to stake a couple of shares, go 4 it, theres lots of players who are unable to attend, just state in your request that you cannot be playing in that torney if you want shares

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Suggestions why cant you play joe? :unsure

[Burnley Joe]

Re: Suggestions Cos im shit at it

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Suggestions oh.... but you'll be comin to DTD tho?

[Burnley Joe]

Re: Suggestions Yeah playing the main event mate

[slapdash]

Re: Suggestions Re GaF's comments: I agree with him that staking somebody on a "50%" basis is almost always going to be -EV (a very good player in a deep-stacked tournament might be an exception). However, if somebody gets staked and stakes other people on a roughly equal basis, then it evens out and everybody gets the benefit of reduced variance. Personally, I'd be much more willing to stake people who have themselves staked other people regularly (especially if they'd staked me!). If it's for fairly small amounts of money, I don't think it's a big problem. If I were staking somebody for serious amounts of money, I'd much rather have an agreement to stake them for a series of tournaments, getting a percentage of the net profit.

[Marlin]

Re: Suggestions Maybe the real value in this sort of thing would be where someone has won a package to a major tournie ( e.g. WSOP main event) and wants to guarantee themselves some sort of return for their time, while the stakers would have a shot at a share of a colossal main prize?

Weren’t Moneymaker and Gold staked for their entry fees in the main event?

If there is anyone out there called Colin Cashmachine, Peter Platinum or with the initials ATM, then I might be interested in a hundredth share of their action.

[PGremlin]

Re: Suggestions

If there is anyone out there called Colin Cashmachine, Peter Platinum or with the initials ATM, then I might be interested in a hundredth share of their action.

Do nicknames count too? MoneyShuffle on Stars :)