Anything really wrong with my play ?

[AJ]

I know the steal on the flop was a bit cheeky, but should I have made the call at the end ? PokerStars Game #18642298325: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/07/07 - 04:08:47 (ET) Table 'Nekkar' 9-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: mykneegrow ($7.95 in chips) Seat 2: MOKiii ($8.20 in chips) Seat 3: MustiMipatti ($8.95 in chips) Seat 4: bd0001 ($1.95 in chips) Seat 5: qemo2000 ($1.90 in chips) Seat 6: robinwhy ($8.85 in chips) Seat 7: glaugh ($17.85 in chips) Seat 8: FLuXuL ($8.30 in chips) Seat 9: asjohnstone ($6.10 in chips) qemo2000: posts small blind $0.05 robinwhy: posts big blind $0.10 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to asjohnstone [9h Th] glaugh: folds FLuXuL: calls $0.10 asjohnstone: calls $0.10 mykneegrow: calls $0.10 MOKiii: folds MustiMipatti: calls $0.10 bd0001: folds qemo2000: folds robinwhy: checks *** FLOP *** [5s Jd 6d] robinwhy: checks FLuXuL: checks asjohnstone: bets $0.50 mykneegrow: folds MustiMipatti: calls $0.50 robinwhy: folds FLuXuL: folds *** TURN *** [5s Jd 6d] [Tc] asjohnstone: bets $1 MustiMipatti: calls $1 *** RIVER *** [5s Jd 6d Tc] [9s] asjohnstone: bets $2 MustiMipatti: raises $5.35 to $7.35 and is all-in asjohnstone: calls $2.50 and is all-in Uncalled bet ($2.85) returned to MustiMipatti *** SHOW DOWN *** MustiMipatti: shows [8h 7s] (a straight, Seven to Jack) asjohnstone: shows [9h Th] (two pair, Tens and Nines) MustiMipatti collected $11.95 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $12.55 | Rake $0.60 Board [5s Jd 6d Tc 9s] Seat 1: mykneegrow folded on the Flop Seat 2: MOKiii folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: MustiMipatti showed [8h 7s] and won ($11.95) with a straight, Seven to Jack Seat 4: bd0001 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: qemo2000 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 6: robinwhy (big blind) folded on the Flop Seat 7: glaugh folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: FLuXuL folded on the Flop Seat 9: asjohnstone showed [9h Th] and lost with two pair, Tens and Nines

[staffy]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? OK Firstly I dont like the call pre flop. Just my opinion I know lots will play that hand. no issues with your bet after flop to see where you are. Once your called though I'm now thinking what does he have. if you think he has a straight draw then fine you bet out after turn but then why would you call the river. If you think he has over pair you should not be betting on the turn IMO so either way I would be getting out of the had once the flop has been called. Lots of hands beating me. Now the above is not always true it depends on who the other player is and how he is playing.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? pre flop seems reasonable,its a nice hand for a multi way pot :ok the steal is cheeky but okay ,but i think you could have maybe scaled down your bets just a bit. by betting pot / 3/4 pot a lot of money has been going in when you could have already been way behind. by scaling down the first bet to around 30c the steal would probably have worked(if nobody had hit) and the pot would have been kept smaller if not,then subsequent streets would have saved you a bit as well. by betting at that level you've built a big pot thats tricky to let go of.

[AJ]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? The call pre flop was speculative. Post flop I had put him on a flush draw and calling for value. My bet on the turn was 70% of the pot, I expected a fold, surprised to get the call, at that stage I reconsidered his holding and thought perhaps Ace Jack ? I was ready to check / fold the river, the 9 hits and I think happy days. I read his reraise as either someone over playing TPTK or a steal with a busted flush draw.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ?

The call pre flop was speculative. Post flop I had put him on a flush draw and calling for value. My bet on the turn was 70% of the pot, I expected a fold, surprised to get the call, at that stage I reconsidered his holding and thought perhaps Ace Jack ? I was ready to check / fold the river, the 9 hits and I think happy days. I read his reraise as either someone over playing TPTK or a steal with a busted flush draw.

yeah i can see why you would call the reraise on the river ,but only because the pot is worth it by then. if i had maybe $2-2.50 in the pot instead of nearly $4 the all in becomes an easier fold.as it is your stuck in a pot thats to big to fold .

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? I hate preflop but then i dont play full ring, maybe limping early is standard i have no idea - I understand that in a limpy game its tempting to just join in and limp loadsa hands from any position but then you are as bad as everyone else. Post flop I just cant understand the bet, you have absolutely nothing in a 5 way pot, not even overcards. You will get called more often that you fold everyone out, i dont know the odds for random hands but someone will have flopped something and people generally dont like letting go of any hand at this level, made or drawing. I disagree that this is a 'steal' or a 'bet to find out where you are', you should simply be dumping this, why get so tricky at this level when there are so many clear edges that you can already exploit. I make the same mistake as you a lot on the turn...If i cont bet a flop i have missed and then catch a little on the turn I will try and get tricky and kinda fall in love with it. I know you think hes drawing and dont want to give a free card but if hes getting fruity with a jack or two pair here you are taking yourself to value town. Imo you shouldnt be too bothered with protecting your hand because you havent invested enough to be worried. Although i tend to think villain is raising a jack or two pair on the turn because hes worried about seeing a lot of rivers that complete draws...They basically dont understand how to get value from a hand so will genenerally just try and get it in before the river. SO i guess we can assume he is drawing, but we cant be sure. I kinda like the value bet on the river, once he raises you are almost certainly beat, but i guess with 2.50 to call into a 12 dollar pot you possibly have to call (i never really get the maths behind this but i suppose you look at his range and see what % is beating you). He NEVER has a busted draw here, by saying that you are in one breath giving him credit for a decent move and also calling him a complete spaz - 1. to steal (or put pressure on by raising) with a busted flush draw is a move that you generally dont see at lower levels, so you are saying hes a decent player. 2. you are saying he made that move but gave you over 4/1 on the call rendering the move completely pointless. I think you are only saying he could have a busted flush draw to make the call seem reasonable, although i dont think you have to. I babbled a bit there but heres the key to this. Reload to 10$ before the hand and then you may be able to get away from it on the river. He has 8.95 so thats another 2.90ish, so you would be calling over 5 dollars into a 18ish dollar pot, hmmm still good value but like i say you are pretty much never winning the way he played it, if that was me i would be sighing when i saw that nine after making a plan to check fold the river ,you will find better spots. Another thought is. - if you suspect you are losing on that river (and im not sure its clear until he raises) then you could opt to check-call becuase i think he value bets a monster here (ive seen people minvaluebet this kinda line because they think you arent calling anything else lol) I dont think he shoves if you check to him so maybe thats a cheaper way out. But like i say, its not clear that you are losing until the raise is made. What an unstructured piece of rubbish that post was, hope i got across what i was trying to though. Wish there was more cash threads on this forum so post away people. :nana:nana Oh and to answer the question preflop - possibly (6max player) flop - yes turn - maybe river - possibly but i think you probably played this better than any other street.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ?

I was ready to check / fold the river, the 9 hits and I think happy days. I read his reraise as either someone over playing TPTK or a steal with a busted flush draw.

you have a big problem if you only read people for hands you beat all the time:eek

[AJ]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? good post, gives me a lot to think about. In particluar, check calling the river would clearly be the way to go. You're right, i've given the guy no real credit here, at the time (on the river) I thought A J was way more likely than the busted flush, which was my call on the flop. I should have checked the flop, called a smaller bet for value but let a big one go. But a lot of players at micro levels will go to the very end of TPTK, I didn't want to fold my two pair and have him flash A J at me. All up it was a crappy donk call on my part, more I look at this thread, the more I hate my play.

[SteveO]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? I can't believe people are saying they don't like the call preflop when no one has raised, I'm never folding that hand preflop unless there's a huge raise. Once the flop comes down I'd fold as you've totally missed the flop and bluffing with mi ninimum outs is a no brainer. I would either have bet a $1 on the river as it's a kind of blocking bet and gets the same amount of info as $2 or I maybe would have checked called depends on the opponent.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ?

In particluar, check calling the river would clearly be the way to go.

I guess but theres a couple of things we need to think about when saying that check calling could be the best option. If we check call we are calling and taking down pots when they are betting with pretty much air, but i dont think you are getting value from a lot of hands you beat that likely check behind. eg. - lower two pairs (although they probably bet, they wont know why they are betting but they will do it any) - any pair that for some reason wants to get to showdown. - any jack - draw and pair that will call a bet on river when they miss because they have a pair! So imo you should probably be bet/folding the river because i think you can assume (readless) that anything you beat isnt raising the river. I think a TPGK type hand probably raises the flop, pretty drawy board. The problem is that because you dont have a full stack you cant really bet/fold the river because of the odds your getting on a call. So i suppose if you arent folding to an all in raise on the river then you might as well shove yourself, you might manage to fold out flopped two pair J5,J6 (pretty unlikely) The more videos i watch on SHNL the more i realise the value of bet/folding - you get value from hands you beat and lose the minimum against hands you lose to. In this case bet/fold was probably the move (unless youve got a read that really suggests that the guy is play TPGK like that)

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ?

I can't believe people are saying they don't like the call preflop when no one has raised, I'm never folding that hand preflop unless there's a huge raise. Once the flop comes down I'd fold as you've totally missed the flop and bluffing with mi ninimum outs is a no brainer. I would either have bet a $1 on the river as it's a kind of blocking bet and gets the same amount of info as $2 or I maybe would have checked called depends on the opponent.

Like i say i dont play full ring but I laugh my ass off when i see the whole table limp round preflop. I play 6max and generally dont wanna be part of that, pretty much any hand that im not happy raising (be it position, hand strength etc) i will fold out. Like i say though, i play 6max where aggression is the key, 9Ts is a great hand to be increasing your PFR ---> giving yourself an agressive image ---> getting paid when you have a big hand. I guess limping also allows hands that dominate you in for free - K9, Q9 that would probly fold out to a raise (esp at full ring), not to mention K2-?? of the same suit, the last thing we need is to lose our stack flush over flush because we decided to try and beat the fish at their own game! I guess what im trying to say is people who limp a lot get 'unlucky'.

[SteveO]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ?

Like i say i dont play full ring but I laugh my ass off when i see the whole table limp round preflop. I play 6max and generally dont wanna be part of that' date=' pretty much any hand that im not happy raising (be it position, hand strength etc) i will fold out. Like i say though, i play 6max where aggression is the key, 9Ts is a great hand to be increasing your PFR ---> giving yourself an agressive image ---> getting paid when you have a big hand. I guess limping also allows hands that dominate you in for free - K9, Q9 that would probly fold out to a raise (esp at full ring), not to mention K2-?? of the same suit, the last thing we need is to lose our stack flush over flush because we decided to try and beat the fish at their own game! I guess what im trying to say is people who limp a lot get 'unlucky'.[/quote'] Yeah good post mate. What you say is very valid obvioulsy ideally you would call with 9h10h in position against a sole raiser and this would then narrow down the hands your up against as there are no limpers involved, and if you hit th flop hard you could win a big pot, and like you say in a 6 seater you play it aggressively.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? yeah i agree, 6 seat would be completely different and i would raise pre flop:ok the only reason i'd flat call early is because its more likely your gonna get caught in a squeeze play on a 10 seat, so i'd rather keep it cheap and try to get an idea of the rest of the table. its a good hand to play multiway or vs a big pp with a deep stack ,as long as it stays fairly cheap pre flop . i dont wanna get caught between 2 big hands pushing hard pre flop with a lot of chips going in:eek the other thing with playing it cheap is it lets in other similar hands that you dominate if the right flop comes(56/67/78 and small pps),these hands make you a lot. on the other hand you sometimes have to respect that it will also let in the sort of hand that has you beat when you hit 2 pair etc. which is why i'm wary of building the pot when i catch partially.

[AJ]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? last related point on this hand, I'll ask a different question, should he have folded to my $1 bet on the turn ? He has 7 outs and is a 15% dog, I bet 3/4 of the pot, surely he should have folded ?

[SteveO]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? Well he had a 14% chance of hitting roughly a 6.5/1 shot but if he thinks if he hits you'll call his allin for $7.35 more he has made the correct call for the implied odds.

[AJ]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? I'm never sure just how real the concept of implied oddds are. (although I conced it worked here)

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ? i dont think i would have called your bet on the turn . although the implied odds are about right, i usualy want really good odds to play em, not ok odds. funnily enough i was thinking the same thing earlier looking at the hand ,as it is a tight decision on his side of things:ok

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ?

last related point on this hand, I'll ask a different question, should he have folded to my $1 bet on the turn ? He has 7 outs and is a 15% dog, I bet 3/4 of the pot, surely he should have folded ?

you are playing .05/.1, dont make these kinds of players your benchmark and certainly dont try and put reasons to their actions :lol

[glceud]

Re: Anything really wrong with my play ?

last related point on this hand, I'll ask a different question, should he have folded to my $1 bet on the turn ? He has 7 outs and is a 15% dog, I bet 3/4 of the pot, surely he should have folded ?

He may have had 7 outs but his biggest out was that if he reraised or bet the river heavy you would fold.