It is good to share

[BAM]

This is not intended to have a go at anyone ;) It is following on from what The Mole said in his thread, he is undoubtedly the second best player on this forum yet he is not afraid to share with us all his strategies in hands and he has sound reasoning behind that. In the strategy section we have a handful of players who post and basically the threads (for me) seem to die prematurely. I have been wondering this for a long while now, why the better and most successful players on PL never give us their thoughts in this section? Is is because they do not have a strategy and their game is based on luck? Do they not actually know what they are doing right? Are they scared that they are revealing some kind of secret? Do they find strategy futile as there are a whole lot of other factors more than HH? etc etc etc I would genuinely like to know, I personally think if you take something from PL you should try to give it back and this section is one way of doing this. (watch this thread die a death now :lol) I'll name names if you want me to :dude

[PAULM03]

Re: It is good to share Cause poker players are selfish gits who'd rob their own granny for a small blind.:ok

[slapdash]

Re: It is good to share

Cause poker players are selfish gits who'd rob their own granny for a small blind.:ok

Yes, but it would still benefit us all to share Granny-robbing strategy. E.g., is there more +EV in Granny-robbing when she's asleep? Or when she's gone shopping?

[slapdash]

Re: It is good to share I agree with Brian the Wasp. I think a lot of us are disappointed that Poker Strategy is not more active. Speaking for myself, it's in the nature of strategy threads that often I want to think about my contribution before I post. And I'm sure that often I just forget about it. One of the reasons we split up the poker forum was that when strategy threads were mixed up with everything else, they rapidly dropped off the first page into oblivion. I think having a seperate strategy forum helped a bit, but not as much as I'd hoped. One thing I'd say is that if there's been no activity in a thread for a few days, don't assume that everybody's lost interest so there's no point in posting. It would be good to hear other people's frank views on why they don't post here so much, and any ideas of what we could do to encourage more people to post.

[GaF]

Re: It is good to share

I'll name names if you want me to :dude

I think naming some names (in the right way ;) ) could be helpful :ok What you're saying is "I've seen you play, I think you have a great game that I respect and I'd love to hear some more about the thought processes involved when you make the decisions you do. I think I can learn from you." You're paying these people a complement :ok Sometimes I think confidence is an issue and people are "scared" to express their opinions. I dont think that should be the case - few situations in Poker are Black and White, right or wrong - but a point on a scale which are difficult to quantify ... Even where people disagree on what is "correct", it's important to hear what the others views are if you are to be able to understand the way other poker players are thinking (and if you cannot get in their heads, you'll never crush them!) The Star letter in the June issue of Inside Poker was quite interesting. Basically the asserition was that British players lag behind US and Scandinavian players because we dont have players in depth "sharing information" on forums (i.e. discussing hands). Time and again you hear the pro's saying that one of the most important aspect to improve is to discuss and disect hands. I'm not sure I totally agree - I view the likes of twoplustwo and pocketfives as "international" and with no barriers to participation from British players :unsure But it would be great if we could get more strategy discussion going in here :ok

[robsterling]

Re: It is good to share Personally, I tend to post and talk to people elsewhere but drop in here from time to time. I think the strategy here is more related to tournament play. I barely ever play tourneys (except HU sngs) myself so can't contribute much myself to that side of things. As far as the cash threads go, I contribute when I see an interesting one, but very often its people asking "What they did wrong?"... and it turns out to either be a bad beat, in which case they did nothing wrong or an obvious mistake that everyone has seen before. Also a lot of threads like "Is pokertracker useful?" and such. It undoubtedly is, yet I see the same question asked a lot. And a lot of threads include just a hand history with no other info, making it difficult for anyone to make an informed decision. I think it's fair to say strategy sections at twoplustwo and the like are more advanced, although more unfriendly at times. That's not to say this site couldn't improve, but I must admit that this forum isn't my first stop for strategy advice (neither is twoplustwo though). I prefer advice from people I have played with a lot who know my game and I know theirs so we can discuss in relation to other aspects, as no hand is isolated. Still I'd definitely like to see more strategy here.

[Valiant23]

Re: It is good to share

Is is because they do not have a strategy and their game is based on luck? Do they not actually know what they are doing right? Are they scared that they are revealing some kind of secret? Do they find strategy futile as there are a whole lot of other factors more than HH? etc etc etc

As well as this I'd also add; They may know what they are doing, may even be an established PLer, but still not feel confident of getting their point across. :\ Being totally honest... I 'withdrew' from poker strategy in part because I felt I was giving opponents (PLers who didn't post in strategy) an edge by honestly explaining how I'd play a situation. I also get a little frustrated because I try and make a point that in certain tournament situations it isn't all about pot odds and statistical variance and then get shot down.

[BAM]

Re: It is good to share

I think naming some names (in the right way ;) ) could be helpful :ok What you're saying is "I've seen you play' date= I think you have a great game that I respect and I'd love to hear some more about the thought processes involved when you make the decisions you do. I think I can learn from you." You're paying these people a complement :ok

There are quite a few but the two that always spring to my mind are Heniek and TQM (lets start a list :lol)

Time and again you hear the pro's saying that one of the most important aspect to improve is to discuss and disect hands.

I was hoping someone would say this :ok I think the Hendon Mob would tell anyone that they improved no end through strategy discussions amongst themselves. Recently speaking to various members of the Hit Squader's (whilst they are taking my chips) they have told me that the advantage of getting their group together, eating, sleeping and traveling together is that they spend vital hours discussing strategy and to them it is invaluable hearing differing advice from their peers. If you ask Steph, contrary to popular belief, we do not spend every tourney drinking at the bar, we never stop talking strategy and constantly testing each other to see what we would do in certain situations and we have found the knowledge invaluable.

[BAM]

Re: It is good to share

As well as this I'd also add; They may know what they are doing, may even be an established PLer, but still not feel confident of getting their point across.

I know certain people have ventured in, been slapped around and not come back, so that is a mod problem I guess but look at Nade!! :ok

Being totally honest... I 'withdrew' from poker strategy in part because I felt I was giving opponents (PLers who didn't post in strategy) an edge by honestly explaining how I'd play a situation.

I used to think that but now believe it to be bollocks if you look at the wealth of information pro's like Marc Goodwin have given away and he had a £100k cash last month

I also get a little frustrated because I try and make a point that in certain tournament situations it isn't all about pot odds and statistical variance and then get shot down.

:eyes

[GaF]

Re: It is good to share

There are quite a few but the two that always spring to my mind are Heniek and TQM (lets start a list :lol).

I think Henieks a really interesting one because I really cannot get my head around his play - when I see him play, every instinct in me says "He's a poor player" but his results, and consistency of results speak volumes - there is without doubt a level to his play that is way way over my head and I just dont get. I'd really like to understand Heniek more - not to beat him, not to take advantage of him, but to understand better similar players to him that I currently dont understand.....

[ubermonkey1]

Re: It is good to share

I also get a little frustrated because I try and make a point that in certain tournament situations it isn't all about pot odds and statistical variance and then get shot down.

I think Henieks a really interesting one because I really cannot get my head around his play - when I see him play' date=' every instinct in me says "He's a poor player" but his results, and consistency of results speak volumes - there is without doubt a level to his play that is way way over my head and I just dont get. I'd really like to understand Heniek more - not to beat him, not to take advantage of him, but to understand better similar players to him that I currently dont understand.....[/quote'] i think this proves mr v's point:ok although hen may not always look like he is playing"optimum poker"i think he is very good at putting his opponent on a hand and acts well on that(aggressively usually:lol),which is why he's such a tough opponent:clap:clap. i know on saturday night he made at least 3 or 4 really good bluffs,laydowns and calls based on a correct read. thats the thing with a really good play,often its completely against the maths of the game which is what makes it so good:ok

[The Quiet Man]

Re: It is good to share

I think Henieks a really interesting one because I really cannot get my head around his play - when I see him play' date=' every instinct in me says "He's a poor player" but his results, and consistency of results speak volumes - there is without doubt a level to his play that is way way over my head and I just dont get. I'd really like to understand Heniek more - not to beat him, not to take advantage of him, but to understand better similar players to him that I currently dont understand.....[/quote'] Yea, come on Heniek....spill the beans!!:lol:lol TQM

[heniek31]

Re: It is good to share

I think Henieks a really interesting one because I really cannot get my head around his play - when I see him play' date=' every instinct in me says [b']"He's a poor player" but his results, and consistency of results speak volumes - there is without doubt a level to his play that is way way over my head and I just dont get. I'd really like to understand Heniek more - not to beat him, not to take advantage of him, but to understand better similar players to him that I currently dont understand.....

I agreed on that with you GaF long time ago :ok. And thank you for nice few words guys :$. I kind of like being called an enigma. I will try to write few lines tomorrow, when I get up. I dont really know though what you expect me to say :unsure. If you have any questions fire away and I will answer. Just in short. I hardly ever play SnG and time to time cash. Tournaments are my bread. Thats what brings me money. I have never read a single poker book (even though I have over 10 of em on my PC :eyes). Only IP and PP magazines. After I confess all, I will become the worst (or most lucky) player on PL for sure :ok.

[The Quiet Man]

Re: It is good to share

There are quite a few but the two that always spring to my mind are Heniek and TQM

Quite chuffed to be mentioned in this context to be honest.:$ I very rarely post anything in the strategy section as I always think the answers are so obvious......that maybe sounds a bit cocky and I'm certainly not that! :unsure I'm also not very good at getting my point across and I can't be bothered wasting time getting into an argument with someone who disagrees with the way I play. I'm not sure what Heniek's secret is but a few of my strengths are:- 1. Predicting to myself what the opponent will do before he bets........normally in relation to his stack and position on the table. 2. Very, very, very rarely getting annoyed at losing when I'm in front when the chips go in..........the sooner folk adopt this attitude, the better the player they'll be. 3. If I'm playing well, I can lay down plenty of decent starting hands if I'm in the wrong position. (If I'm sober I play them all) 4. I try to vary my game depending upon what the entry list/prizes are.....I'm sure that's what most folk here do anyway? I don't read any poker books and I probably wouldn't recognise 99.9% of the best players in the world........I've only been playing 3 and a half years and have a fair few years to improve to the standard that I'd like to reach! :hope There's more that I could write but I'm sure nobody but WASP is giving a feck!!:lol:lol GaF.....you're the same standard as me (if not better) so no need for you to press me for more informative answers to the above points:lol:lol It's a good thread and I'm a wee bit embarrassed that I haven't contributed much...I'll try in the future.:ok Be lucky. TQM

[The Quiet Man]

Re: It is good to share Just read Heniek's comments after finishing my epic!:lol Two similarties pop out :- Neither of us bother to read Poker books,,,,so I would presume we have a natural aptitude for being lucky feckers.:ok (sure Mole is the same):unsure We both appear to have a laid-back attitude to playing poker (and life in general)....we ENJOY playing!:ok TQM

[heniek31]

Re: It is good to share

Just read Heniek's comments after finishing my epic!:lol Two similarties pop out :- Neither of us bother to read Poker books,,,,so I would presume we have a natural aptitude for being lucky feckers.:ok (sure Mole is the same):unsure We both appear to have a laid-back attitude to playing poker (and life in general)....we ENJOY playing!:ok TQM

That is spot on :clap. I didn't want to compare myself to Mole (and I'm not trying now), but I find myself all the time in the situations, that I'm using my pure instinct. If made wrong move and I'm out of the tournament, I'm right back in the next one. No stress, no hard feelings, just getting on with it. If you lose your buy in in cash game, its much harder to get up. I have one advantage over TQM though. I never play drunk :lol.

[gavham]

Re: It is good to share

That is spot on :clap. I didn't want to compare myself to Mole (and I'm not trying now), but I find myself all the time in the situations, that I'm using my pure instinct. If made wrong move and I'm out of the tournament, I'm right back in the next one. No stress, no hard feelings, just getting on with it. If you lose your buy in in cash game, its much harder to get up. I have one advantage over TQM though. I never play drunk :lol.

Well done Brian you managed to start a decent thread :clap. Yes what you said earlier is correct we do talk a lot of strategy when on tour and everytime we have my game goes up a notch (its amazing to hear how thick some players are :) ). I think most peoples problems here is actually writing down what they do, its not that easy to explain everything. Hen you were right not to compare to me ( you are a far uglier bugger :) ) No there are a lot of similarities, playing with instinct and gut feeling and learning from what you do wrong. I have always said reading books can hinder your play but if you are at a decent level then picking certain things out could help, although i dont think you can beat learning from your own mistakes. You must always keep an open mind. Playing drunk is fine if your scottish, its our water :) So brian i have thought long and hard about your earlier statement that i am the second best here (tx i'll take that) and i think ive managed to work out who is no.1 its............ Teaulcs boy.:tongue2

[heniek31]

Re: It is good to share Tread is turning to Henieks strategy tips, but its not going to be any. Sorry. After my bankroll increased immensely last year, I could afford to play more tournaments (with bigger buy ins too). If I play 4-5 at once its easier to cash in. Thats why it seems I get into money more often. I dont have any strategy when I first sit at the table. I try to adjust to the play there and then. My biggest bankrolls are on Stars, Paradise and Virgin. Any game on Boss, I start very tight. Those sites are full of lunatics and hardest to play. After level 4-5, I turn to lunatic myself :$. In it to win it. Games on Stars are on a bit of a higher level and I play them with ABC poker. Blinds level, position, stacks. Any PL game is the hardest to play and win. I'm not giving away nowt :tongue2. After so many games, I have a picture of most of you and play accordingly. I will play loose against some and then lay monsters against others. I have to admit for being a cnut sometimes. There are some players I just love to call it doesn't matter what :$. I'm pretty sure each and every one of you have players they love to bluff or beat. Many PLers take the game to seriously. If thats the case, I want to kick their asses every time at all cost, even going out.

We both appear to have a laid-back attitude to playing poker (and life in general)....we ENJOY playing!

Thats me for sure. I have set some goals for my bankroll and if I reach them, I will read some books, use spreadsheets and some tracking stuff. ATM I dont want to change anything. Sorry to disappoint you all. This suppose to be tread about strategy. I will try to post my views more often on hands histories, but dont expect to read them from the point of view fold equity or reverse implied odds.

[heniek31]

Re: It is good to share

( you are a far uglier bugger :) )

I feel very offended by that comment :@. Next time, could you please insert Polish where appropriate :ok.

[gavham]

Re: It is good to share

I feel very offended by that comment :@. Next time, could you please insert Polish where appropriate :ok.

It translates into - you are a fine looking young man :)

[BAM]

Re: It is good to share

Well done Brian you managed to start a decent thread :clap.

Thanks I've been practising by looking at decent forums ;) I think people are getting mixed up with strategy and maths here :unsure. You can have a strategy in every single hand you play without knowing sod all about the calculations. I dont think we are asking for you to write a book Hen just a comment know now and then in someone elses thread about what you would do in a certain situation, would be interesting. If you would rather not then that is fine, I respect that (and the US government were right about you) The general gist is - if this forum has so many good players then more players should be willing to participate in this section and as others have found, sharing knowledge is a very useful tool and if mole can do it with fear of giving away edge than anyone can! It is probably wrong to single out TQM and Hen as there are many others who could participate as well. Btw mole it was obviously philthepro I was talking about ;)

[teaulc]

Re: It is good to share no point in me posting in strategy as you all know i aint got a clue,but i get by,especially now having taken Wasp`s (Brian) advise,i dont play so much now so more confident in what i do... if anything i would love to be a vastly better tourney player but it aint for me it seems,except most live games i do ok in, sng is my bread and butter but i wont post hand history as i always feel i am gonna be heavily criticised and my confidence is thin at the best of times. i do try to read the strategy side of things here but with a wife who hates me being on the laptop and hates poker with a vengeance i dont get much time to read.

[Nade]

Re: It is good to share It's all been said really. I agree there needs to be more input from more established players on here as before it was mainly me and a handful of others who contributed and although any discussion is constructive discussion about poker i always think it looks a bit amateurish. For certain though i wouldn't be at the stage i am now without this strategy section and i know any novices appreciate contributions from the more established players. As many will remember i came here with the wrong attitude and with help from people here was able to broaden my mind about the game. Even if people at the time were saying things that were seen as 'obvious' to them they seemed to give me lots of pointers which in turn put me in the right direction. Now i still love discussing the game and will always give my opinion on a hand, even if people don't respect me or my game or whatever i don't care because i give my thoughts to not only put another thought into peoples minds of how to play the hand, but may also create debate with people disagreeing so i can improve my own game. Contributing to strategy secions is a win/win situation for everyone and can only think people who don't contribute think their games are perfect in which case they'll fall behind in this ever progressing game imo. In summary i think the way to improve at poker is to have a large sample of replies so people can evaluate comments from everybody. It doesn't matter if you think the plays are obvious or whatever the person asking the question will appreciate replies from anyone as they'll get a better picture of the hand and will be able to analyse it from all the different angles that are brought up and this is the key to improving - being able to look at situations from many angles and evaluating them which in turn broadens the mind and gradually nuggets of poker strategy will become clear. Seriously even if the biggest fish in the world at my table makes a horrible play i'll look at the play from their perspective and see if there's anything at all that i might be able to use as madness is bordering on the genius as they say ;) . And also if people are of the attitude that there are 'right and wrong' ways to play poker then they won't improve imo. (meh long post, too used to writing essays :$)

[slapdash]

Re: It is good to share I've moved Mowgli's question and follow-up posts to a separate thread, as I think it's good if this discussion doesn't get mixed up with particular strategy questions. http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/f62/aa-utg-early-live-stt-68320/

[ubermonkey1]

Re: It is good to share

I think people are getting mixed up with strategy and maths here :unsure. You can have a strategy in every single hand you play without knowing sod all about the calculations.

i think its just harder for the more feel based players to express their thoughts/intentions than it is for somebody more math based to work out that its a +ev move. for a start your subconcious is going through the millions of hands you've played etc and gives you an answer. although you can run through whats happened in the hand and come to a conclusion ,a lot of the time that gut instinct from your subconcious is the thing you should use.trouble is thats a bit hard to express :( mind you the moles manages to do a great job on his thread and really expresses his feelings during the hand:clap:clap

[BAM]

Re: It is good to share What type of player would you class me as feel or maths ?

[Valiant23]

Re: It is good to share I'm not telling...but its more feel than maths. :ok

[Galronix]

Re: It is good to share

What type of player would you class me as feel or maths ?

Bit of both I think, but I've found you to be a clever player.

[slapdash]

Re: It is good to share

I also get a little frustrated because I try and make a point that in certain tournament situations it isn't all about pot odds and statistical variance and then get shot down.

I'm feeling a bit guilty, since I suspect that I may be one of those you thought were "shooting you down". It definitely wasn't my intention. There are very few things I feel "sure" about in poker, but, being a mathematician, I guess the things I have the firmest opinions about are the more mathematical aspects. I certainly don't think that mathematics is the be all and end all of poker, but it's those aspects where I think that I personally have the best chance to get an edge. I read forums like twoplustwo quite a lot from time to time, and learn a lot from them. But they have such a large volume of belittling posts that I often wonder how they get so many posts, especially from newbies. I'd like to think that we have a big edge over them in friendliness. I think I can honestly say that I've never made a post with the intention of belittling anybody (except in fun, and even then only when I'm 100% sure that it will be taken in the right spirit), and if any of my posts have come across like that then it's always because I just haven't expressed myself very well. If I ever do come across as arrogant or dogmatic then I'd honestly like to be told!

[GaF]

Re: It is good to share

I'm feeling a bit guilty' date=' since I suspect that I may be one of those you thought were "shooting you down". [/quote'] I'm obviously in that camp as well :$ I think the difficulty is that offering an opinion is often interpreted (not just by Mr V) as "shooting you down", when it's intended as just another view to be added to the catalogue of views on offer. I feel I've gone the other way now in a lot of threads where I'm "scared" to offer my opinion where it differs from some members in case it may be interpreted as shooting them down. However we never learn more (all parties) than when we disagree and can debate the disagreement in a reasoned fashion - regardless of who is right and wrong in the end (or if noone is right or wrong) - it is during the journey that we learn..... I suppose the other side is - the players who take poker less seriously - Do you want to learn? Do you want to improve? or do you just want to enjoy your poker as it is? My overriding goal is to get better. I think others overriding goal (quite reasonably) is to enjoy their poker. Most are probably somewhere inbetween. Speaking specifically about slapdash - in my mind, he has by far and away the best theoretical understanding of the game, the situations and of poker, on PL. His are the views I always look for the most. He is the one I feel I can learn most from. Yet despite this, I think he massively underachieves in his poker - he hasn't had the big wins that a large proportion on PL have managed. I cannot explain this underachievement, but maybe he lacks the qualitative side to his poker that players like Heniek have. If this is the case, then Slapdash could learn a lot from the views of "feel" players if it shows him a different persective to the thinking than he curtrently has and maybe it could take him from being the best theroetical player on PL to someone who could be really REALLY successful in reality. Everyone can learn from everyone on PL!