How much did I go wrong?

[DM99]

I am currently playing in as many freerolls as possible just to gain experience/playing time (and maybe a few cents along the way). My last freeroll I just finished I was bundled out in 101st position - guess where the payouts started? :wall I had a look at my chip stack about 15 min before this, and realised that if I just played premium hands then I was going to finish in the money. However, it took me three premium hands to be bust. I would like some advice to make sure it never happens again! I had late position in all three hands. As normal towards the end of a tourney, there was a fair bit of aggression and rasing/reraising going on: First hand I had JJ, raised. One caller, one all-in. Covered the all-in, flop came out 10-10-x. For some reason I folded coz I felt that it was very likely that someone else had a 10. In hindsight, a terrible play, and had I stayed in would have doubled up. :wall Second hand A 10 of hearts, again was raised by a short stacked player, I called. Was just me heads up vs him. He turned over 66, and the board didn't help either of us. Did I have stats on my side? :wall Third hand QQ, raised again, went all in with two other players. They each turned over Kx and hit a K on the flop :wall In this stage of a tournament is there ever a good reason to ditch QQ? I figure it was the best chance I had to make a stand, hoping for a low flop, but :sad Is there anything that I could have done but see everyone and hope for the best?

[daftpegasus]

Re: How much did I go wrong? Can you post the full hand histories for these hands? These will help us all analyse them.

[DM99]

Re: How much did I go wrong? OK, you won't find too much of value there. I am a pretty poor player, but want to improve to have a +ve expectation. As I said above, my thinking was to play only premium hands and avoid the shove to ensure myself finishing in the money. ***** Hand History for Game 6830166285 ***** 0/0 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (MTT Tournament 38705014) - Fri Feb 29 04:55:53 EST 2008 Table 339259 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button Total number of players : 10 Seat 1: GeorgeShort (20425) Seat 2: zakghazz (47460) Seat 3: maree9111 (24505) Seat 4: wobbly111au (3545) Seat 5: TILKwreck (25980) Seat 6: maryanne888 (10365) Seat 7: ACE_MASTER5 (7205) Seat 8: dwarfy1 (22970) Seat 9: ashley_reed (10860) Seat 10: twinex50 (2395) GeorgeShort posts ante (75) zakghazz posts ante (75) maree9111 posts ante (75) wobbly111au posts ante (75) TILKwreck posts ante (75) maryanne888 posts ante (75) ACE_MASTER5 posts ante (75) dwarfy1 posts ante (75) ashley_reed posts ante (75) twinex50 posts ante (75) ACE_MASTER5 posts small blind (1000) dwarfy1 posts big blind (2000) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to dwarfy1 [ Jc, Js ] ashley_reed folds twinex50 folds GeorgeShort folds zakghazz calls (2000) maree9111 calls (2000) wobbly111au raises (3470) to 3470 wobbly111au is all-In. TILKwreck folds maryanne888 folds ACE_MASTER5 folds dwarfy1 calls (1470) zakghazz calls (1470) maree9111 calls (1470) Creating Main Pot with $15630 with wobbly111au ** Dealing Flop ** : [ Tc, Ts, 5h ] dwarfy1 checks zakghazz checks maree9111 bets (8000) dwarfy1 folds - (RETARDED MOVE, at best opponents were 11-1 to have trips) :wall zakghazz folds ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7s ] ** Dealing River ** : [ 4s ] ** Summary ** Main Pot: 15630 Board: [ Tc Ts 5h 7s 4s ] maree9111 balance 36590, bet 11545, collected 23630, net +12085 [ 3s 3h ] [ two pairs, Tens and Threes -- Tc,Ts,7s,3s,3h ] wobbly111au balance 0, lost 3545 [ Ah 2c ] [ a pair of Tens -- Ah,Tc,Ts,7s,5h ] ***** Hand History for Game 6830167716 ***** 0/0 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (MTT Tournament 38705014) - Fri Feb 29 04:56:58 EST 2008 Table 339259 (Real Money) -- Seat 7 is the button Total number of players : 9 Seat 1: GeorgeShort (20350) Seat 2: zakghazz (43915) Seat 3: maree9111 (36590) Seat 5: TILKwreck (25905) Seat 6: maryanne888 (10290) Seat 7: ACE_MASTER5 (6130) Seat 8: dwarfy1 (19425) Seat 9: ashley_reed (10785) Seat 10: twinex50 (2320) GeorgeShort posts ante (75) zakghazz posts ante (75) maree9111 posts ante (75) TILKwreck posts ante (75) maryanne888 posts ante (75) ACE_MASTER5 posts ante (75) dwarfy1 posts ante (75) ashley_reed posts ante (75) twinex50 posts ante (75) dwarfy1 posts small blind (1000) ashley_reed posts big blind (2000) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to dwarfy1 [ Th, Ah ] twinex50 folds GeorgeShort raises (8000) to 8000 zakghazz folds maree9111 folds TILKwreck folds maryanne888 folds ACE_MASTER5 folds dwarfy1 calls (7000) ashley_reed calls (6000) ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3h, 3c, 7s ] dwarfy1 bets (2000) ashley_reed raises (2710) to 2710 ashley_reed is all-In. GeorgeShort folds dwarfy1 calls (710) ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7c ] ** Dealing River ** : [ 9d ] Creating Main Pot with $30095 with ashley_reed ** Summary ** Main Pot: 30095 Board: [ 3h 3c 7s 7c 9d ] dwarfy1 balance 8640, lost 10785 [ Th Ah ] [ two pairs, Sevens and Threes -- Ah,7s,7c,3h,3c ] ashley_reed balance 30095, bet 10785, collected 30095, net +19310 [ 6h 6c ] [ two pairs, Sevens and Sixes -- 9d,7s,7c,6h,6c ] ***** Hand History for Game 6830170504 ***** 0/0 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (MTT Tournament 38705014) - Fri Feb 29 04:59:10 EST 2008 Table 339259 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button Total number of players : 10 Seat 1: GeorgeShort (12200) Seat 2: zakghazz (33765) Seat 3: maree9111 (36440) Seat 4: fallsy1970 (66234) Seat 5: TILKwreck (25755) Seat 6: maryanne888 (8140) Seat 7: ACE_MASTER5 (5980) Seat 8: dwarfy1 (8565) Seat 9: ashley_reed (44770) Seat 10: twinex50 (170) GeorgeShort posts ante (75) zakghazz posts ante (75) maree9111 posts ante (75) fallsy1970 posts ante (75) TILKwreck posts ante (75) maryanne888 posts ante (75) ACE_MASTER5 posts ante (75) dwarfy1 posts ante (75) ashley_reed posts ante (75) twinex50 posts ante (75) twinex50 posts small blind (95) GeorgeShort posts big blind (2000) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to dwarfy1 [ Qc, Qd ] zakghazz folds maree9111 folds fallsy1970 raises (6000) to 6000 TILKwreck folds maryanne888 raises (8065) to 8065 maryanne888 is all-In. ACE_MASTER5 folds dwarfy1 raises (8490) to 8490 dwarfy1 is all-In. ashley_reed folds twinex50 is all-In. GeorgeShort folds fallsy1970 calls (2490) ** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kc, Js, 5s ] ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7d ] ** Dealing River ** : [ 3s ] Creating Main Pot with $1225 with twinex50 Creating Side Pot 1 with $25815 with maryanne888 Creating Side Pot 2 with $850 with dwarfy1 ** Summary ** Main Pot: 1225 | Side Pot 1: 25815 | Side Pot 2: 850 Board: [ Kc Js 5s 7d 3s ] fallsy1970 balance 85559, bet 8565, collected 27890, net +19325 [ Ks Td ] [ a pair of Kings -- Ks,Kc,Js,Td,7d ] maryanne888 balance 0, lost 8140 [ Tc Ts ] [ a pair of Tens -- Kc,Js,Tc,Ts,7d ] dwarfy1 balance 0, lost 8565 [ Qc Qd ] [ a pair of Queens -- Kc,Qc,Qd,Js,7d ] twinex50 balance 0, lost 170 [ 2h Qh ] [ high card King -- Kc,Qh,Js,7d,5s ] Oops, actually out of position with my hands. Makes a bit of difference :\

[Nade]

Re: How much did I go wrong? First hand with JJ - I'm re-raising there after the all in as there's already close enough to 9k in the pot, JJ is a terrible hand against multiple opponents as well so i'd be looking to isolate, would look to raise to 10k pot bet, to be honest i'd probably move all in in my present mood which is 'no fear'. By calling pre flop you're looking to hit a J or bin it pretty much imo against a few opponents, but as it turns out the flop is great for you and you have to think on that flop what is the person likely to be raising 8k with? a 10 would be near the bottom of the list i.e. you're ahead so push. Folding is very tight but means you're still in with a healthy stack. Second hand with A10s - I don't like playing suited aces below J unless in position and you're in the SB, also calling a third of your stack to boot! Simply the call gets you no information whatsoever, with a marginal hand, out of position i'm folding this, or the other option is push but early position raiser you know you're behind if they call likely dominated so wouldn't push unless you know they're really loose but it's situational really. Third hand with QQ - You know if you push you're against 2 opponents minimum, but you have the 3rd best starting hand, the others are v unlikely to have AA/KK so pretty much always you'll be putting your money in ahead here and will win the majority of time which is all you need to think about really. If there's say 4/5 all ins before you then it's a tougher situation but with big stack and short stack only AI then it's fairly standard call for me.

[daftpegasus]

Re: How much did I go wrong? What it gives us is information on stack sizes, position, fold equity, etc. Hand 1 - The call is the wrong play here. With any pocket pair you don't want to be up against many opponents. With 2 players calling the BB and the small All In, if you call the other 2 players have to call with any 2 cards. IMO you need to be raising here, probably All in to get rid of the 2 callers and to end up heads up with the short stack. Whether you beat the short stack or not is then irrelevant as you will not really dent your chip stack. Hand 2 - You should have folded pre flop. There is a 4xBB raise for 40% of his chips from an early position. I'm actually surprised that he folds later in the hand having put in that many chips. Anyway you're out of position and facing a big raise. I'd fold. Hand 3 - You can't get away from that hand and are just plain unlucky. You have 4xBB left and the third best starting hand. You have to shove pre flop. Fallsy1970 is a massive chip leader at the table and is using this power to bully the short stacks close to the bubble. In this hand he just get's lucky too. I know you want to avoid the shove so that you reach the money but I don't think you can avoid it at that stage in the tournament. Ultimately it's best to do very well in a few tournaments rather than scrape into the money in many. It's a hard mindset to change early on in a poker life but you'll come to see these bubble times as the opportunity to be most aggressive rather than least aggressive. If you get to this position again and want to limp into the money then sit out. Otherwise you'll be tempted into playing these types of hands.

[robilaruk]

Re: How much did I go wrong?

What it gives us is information on stack sizes, position, fold equity, etc. Hand 1 - The call is the wrong play here. . IMO you need to be raising here, probably All in to Hand 2 - You should have folded pre flop. Hand 3 - You can't get away from that hand and are just plain unlucky. You have 4xBB left and the third best starting hand. You have to shove pre flop. Fallsy1970 is a massive chip leader at the table and is using this power to bully the short stacks close to the bubble. In this hand he just get's lucky too.

Spot on:ok Damo

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: How much did I go wrong? You need to try and give yourself easier decisions, the QQ hand was just unlucky but the other two could have easily been avoided. Shove with the JJ, ive no doubt about that, it seems to me that you are looking to let as many people in the pot as possible to increase what you stand to win - wrong way to play. You need to think about what you are playing in the blinds and why... I woulda been more wary of the raise tbh, with the raiser in early position in chuckin AT for sure, but possibly if hes in late position i might shove if my stack is big enough to get him off the hand.

[happyhornet]

Re: How much did I go wrong? I was looking through the hand histories and was ready to give my advice.....and DP and Nade have already said exactly what I was going to say.

[DM99]

Re: How much did I go wrong? Thanks for the info. I knew that I had let a couple of opportunities through my fingers. I had noticed a lot of people around the table in previous hands basically calling with anything, and I can remember next time I get a hand that could keep them honest I would call no matter what. Bad position and horrible pot odds ensured my A-10 hand was a screwup. Another question: isolate means to get the fewest number of people playing for the pot. What is the best way to ensure this in the late stages of a freeroll, heaps of aggression and people raising with hands like K2o? Is it a case of shove all in when you have either a fantastic hand or a good hand + position and hope for the best?