Folding KK

[Guest gazza271]

Here's the last couple of my hands from tonights PLOP's qualifier. There was 3 of us left with 1 and 2 getting seats and 3rd getting $10. Second to last hand...... ***** Hand 959718958 ***** 400.00/800.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 17 February 2008 22:04:04 PLOPS Satellite (Real /Tournament ) Seat 4: hornet01 (5319.00) Seat 8: GpdDelusio (23066.00) Seat 9: PLgazza (7390.00) GpdDelusio post SB 400.00 PLgazza post BB 800.00 ** Deal ** hornet01 [N/A, N/A] GpdDelusio [N/A, N/A] PLgazza [Qc, As] *** Bet Round 1 *** hornet01 Fold GpdDelusio All-in 23066.00 PLgazza All-in 7390.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [2s, 9c, 6s] *** Turn(Board): *** : [2s, 9c, 6s, 3c] *** River(Board): *** : [2s, 9c, 6s, 3c, Ad] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 15005.00 hornet01 Fold Win: 0.00 GpdDelusio [Qs, 8h] Highest card ace Win: 0.00 PLgazza [Qc, As] Pair of aces Win: 15005.00 With 3 of us left and Steve'o going all in quite frequently as the big stack and Hornet and myself fairly level in chips I'm calling here and with this hand I think I'm a long way ahead. My call wins and leaves the chip stacks as follows... Seat 4: hornet01 (5244.00) Seat 8: GpdDelusio (15601.00) Seat 9: PLgazza (14930.00) So with the blinds now at 400/800 this puts me in a good postion chips wise :ok Then this..... ***** Hand 959720037 ***** 400.00/800.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 17 February 2008 22:04:43 PLOPS Satellite (Real /Tournament ) Seat 4: hornet01 (5244.00) Seat 8: GpdDelusio (15601.00) Seat 9: PLgazza (14930.00) PLgazza post SB 400.00 hornet01 post BB 800.00 ** Deal ** hornet01 [N/A, N/A] GpdDelusio [N/A, N/A] PLgazza [Ks, Kh] *** Bet Round 1 *** GpdDelusio Raise to 2400.00 PLgazza All-in 14930.00 hornet01 Fold GpdDelusio Call 14930.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [7s, 10c, 7d] *** Turn(Board): *** : [7s, 10c, 7d, 7h] *** River(Board): *** : [7s, 10c, 7d, 7h, Ac] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 30885.00 hornet01 Fold Win: 0.00 GpdDelusio [Qd, As] Full house Win: 30885.00 PLgazza [Ks, Kh] Full house Win: 0.00 Cruel cruel cruel river :wall:wall:wall:wall:wall:wall This is no way a sleight on SteveO's play, I would have played it the same as him without a doubt :ok My question here is having got into a decent chip postion should I have layed down KK and left Hornet to fight it out with Steve'O ? Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I think yes I should off but how the hell do you lay down KK at that stage. Who bin's them ?????

[SteveO]

Re: Folding KK Gaz I raised form the button, which meant I could have had anything, you push allin which is the correct move. I think the call with AQ is more debatable as you're only 60/40 against a hand like 89 but you guessed correctly that you were miles ahead and doubled up.

[GaF]

Re: Folding KK Your first AQ is the tough one ...... we know SteveO can shove there with any 2 - you're the middle stack - but only just, your chip advantage over HH is small, but clear... I reckon you're about a 60-65% favourite over his range - that means a 35-40% chance that you lose it there and then - question is - if you fold, what are the chances of you qualifying? I probably fold the AQ here, but only just...... slap might be able to give us a pretty good ICM answer here? (which should be a pretty accurate indicator) The KK is easy IMO - I'm shoving - I'm folding the AQ in SteveO's position though - Hornet is now a clear short stack and you and SteveO both need monsters to go up against one another - AQ is not a monster..... The happiest person at the table seeing these two hands is without question Hornet ;)

[Valiant23]

Re: Folding KK Hand 1 (AQos). Seat 4: hornet01 (5319.00) Seat 8: GpdDelusio (23066.00) Seat 9: PLgazza (7390.00) Although you're ahead of Hornet, its only just. The only person in the comfort zone is SteveO and he's trying his best to whittle you both down and force this kind of move. He's a very good bully. As far as I can see from that point in the tourney you have 2 choices. Let SteveO bully you both and hope that he takes Hornet out, or take a chance with a good hand. If its against SteveO then there are 2 big stacks and Hornet is in shit creek, if its against Hornet and you win then you've qualified. For me, in that position, its a no brainer call. Hand 2 (KK) Seat 4: hornet01 (5244.00) Seat 8: GpdDelusio (15601.00) Seat 9: PLgazza (14930.00) Phil Hellmuth says that the only time he's folding AA is when it's bubble time in a super satellite. The scenario he uses is very similar to this one. Basically, it isn't about amassing chips, its about 2 things. Eliminating the short stack and maintaining a decent sized stack. You achieved one by getting a decent chip stack. Now if SteveO is raising all the time then let him carry on, let him do the hard work and let him put his chips at risk when trying to knock Hornet out. As long as you have a decent stack then you don't have to do anything. You and Steve0 are both muppets for playing this as if it was an MTT and not a satellite, but once SteveO has raised then you should have folded every time.

[SteveO]

Re: Folding KK Oi less of the muppet:spank but you are correct of course:ok.

[glceud]

Re: Folding KK I do it all the time with JJ- kk and I kick my self every time but at this point you have to see the flop and then bet when no ace falls. Normal MTT totally different of course( or is it?) The first AQ and was a far easier call in my eyes if your not calling with that what are you going to do? hope you get aces before hornet. Am I right in saying the second hand would have near enough knocked steve out. The call there was by far the worst play in any of these hands.

[happyhornet]

Re: Folding KK As I was scrolling thru the responses, I thought that no sane man would fold the Kings. However, once I got to Mr V's post, I changed my mind. Again, this is wonderful hindsight, but you two could, and probably should have avoided each other and focused on eliminating me. Could I have folded the Kings? Not in a million years. I'm nowhere near good enough.

[SteveO]

Re: Folding KK I'm never folding KK there either Hornet that's why I'll probably never become a good player! My call with AQ is incorrect but I was in aggression mode and put Gaz on a wide range of hands as I'd been raising quite a lot and didn't even think of folding.

[Valiant23]

Re: Folding KK Hornet, I'm not trying to be clever about this, honestly. I agree that its easy to say this on the thread and not get carried away in the heat of the moment but the Phil Hellmuth attitude that I quoted earlier is one thats ingrained. I'm not saying that because I'd fold I'm better. I'm saying I'd fold because one of the worlds best players said that folding is the right thing to do, and I'm lucky enough to remember that. Unfortunately, I'm not good enough to be at this late stage in an MTT. :$

[happyhornet]

Re: Folding KK

. Unfortunately, I'm not good enough to be at this late stage in an MTT. :$

I can only get this far when a couple of muppets can't lay down hands!!!:loon

[SteveO]

Re: Folding KK Can we have a muppet of the week award and I'll gladly wear the crown till someone else takes it off me.

[GaF]

Re: Folding KK Sorry Mr V - cannot agree at all ..... Gazza still has plenty of fold equity - what could SteveO possibly call with? Aces certainly (but maybe he lays them down :loon) - other than that, IMO SteveO has to fold - certainly with AQ!! I think SteveO made a fairly big mistake calling with AQ - I dont think Gazza made a mistake by shoving kings..... If SteveO had gone all in, then there is a legitimate argument for gazza to lay the Kings down, but not when gazza still has oodles of fold equity..... Still different views of the same situation - isn't this what makes poker great?

[slapdash]

Re: Folding KK

Sorry Mr V - cannot agree at all ..... Gazza still has plenty of fold equity - what could SteveO possibly call with? Aces certainly (but maybe he lays them down :loon) - other than that, IMO SteveO has to fold - certainly with AQ!! I think SteveO made a fairly big mistake calling with AQ - I dont think Gazza made a mistake by shoving kings.....

Let's all have a go at Steve'O :tongue2. I think AA would be a call, but it's close. I agree that with any other hand it's a clear fold: you must have something like an 80% chance of qualifying if you fold, and if you call and lose, you're almost certainly coming third. So you need to be something like a 4-1 favourite for it to be right to call. Gazza's shove is a more interesting problem. I've played a lot of "Rounders" STTs (top 4 or 5 get the same prize) which throw up satellite-like situations like this a lot. As GaF says, the other player should almost always fold if you shove, so you have a huge amount of fold equity if he does what he should do. But players don't always do what they should, and if he will call a lot more often, that hugely benefits the third player, but makes your shove a mistake. In practice I've found that making a smaller raise in these situations gives you virtually the same fold equity as a shove. The players who understand how bad it is to call a shove don't want to get involved in any large pot, and will usually fold to a reasonably large raise.

[Guest gazza271]

Re: Folding KK

Sorry Mr V - cannot agree at all ..... Gazza still has plenty of fold equity - what could SteveO possibly call with? Aces certainly (but maybe he lays them down :loon) - other than that, IMO SteveO has to fold - certainly with AQ!! I think SteveO made a fairly big mistake calling with AQ - I dont think Gazza made a mistake by shoving kings..... If SteveO had gone all in, then there is a legitimate argument for gazza to lay the Kings down, but not when gazza still has oodles of fold equity..... Still different views of the same situation - isn't this what makes poker great?

cheers for the replies :ok I'm gonna agree with Mr V here, looking back and if it happened again I would fold the hand. I got myself into a good postion and with SteveO being so aggresive I should have left him to fight/deal/play with Hornet. As for SteveO's call with AQ I would have played it the same tbh

[Pocket Lady]

Re: Folding KK I agree with Mr V and Slappy (Mr V taught me how to play poker).:ok and yes Steve'o is a muppet :tongue2

[Valiant23]

Re: Folding KK

Sorry Mr V - cannot agree at all .....

Thats fine by me. :ok It isn't really my argument. I'll let you and Phil discuss it.

By the way, poker star Annie Duke tells me that she has folded pocket aces before the flop on at least one occasion. Of course, there are situations in which this would be the correct play. For example, in a supersatellite when you have, say, 30 percent of the chips, eight players win seats, there are nine players remaining, and a player with more chips than you moves all in, it would be correct to fold pocket aces. Why risk getting eliminated when you're only a 4.5-to-1 or less favorite? Why not simply fold and wait for someone else to go broke? After all, the eight players all get paid the same in a supersatellite. It is a very rare case indeed that it would actually be correct to fold pocket aces before the flop, but it just goes to show you, never say never in poker!

If this doesn't apply to Gazza here I'm interested in knowing why. :ok

[GaF]

Re: Folding KK

Let's all have a go at Steve'O :tongue2.

Hehe - it's not personal - I think SteveO knows that :ok You could reverse or replace the names and I'd have said the same :ok

[GaF]

Re: Folding KK

It isn't really my argument. I'll let you and Phil discuss it.

My mate Phil is arguing about calling an all in - I agree with him, but that isn't the situation we had here - gazza went all in and still had plenty of fold equity - in Phils example the opponent has gone all in and he has no fold equity - totally different....

[SteveO]

Re: Folding KK There was also a bit of history between me and Gaz he seemed to be folding to everyones raises but when I tried it he pushed over the top of me. So when we were down to the final 3 I was pushing from the sb everytime he was the bb to give the decision.

[GaF]

Re: Folding KK

I agree with Mr V(Mr V taught me how to play poker).:ok

That explains a lot :moon :moon :moon :moon :tongue2

[Guest gazza271]

Re: Folding KK

There was also a bit of history between me and Gaz he seemed to be folding to everyones raises but when I tried it he pushed over the top of me. So when we were down to the final 3 I was pushing from the sb everytime he was the bb to give the decision.

:lol:lol:lol seriously mate, every time I pushed I had a hand :ok, It's probably my biggest weakness in tournament play - still playing too tight in the latter stages.

[SteveO]

Re: Folding KK Don't know about that Gaz but I remember when rivrd was the short stack and pushed allin you were the bb I think you had about 4000 chips you were getting 3/1 on your money and folded, it would have cost you 600, maybe you can dig that hand out and we can have a look at it.

[Valiant23]

Re: Folding KK

My mate Phil is arguing about calling an all in - I agree with him' date= but that isn't the situation we had here - gazza went all in and still had plenty of fold equity - in Phils example the opponent has gone all in and he has no fold equity - totally different....

Jeez Gaf read the ******* article. :eyes This is it in full.

While playing recently in ESPN's World Championship of Poker, the following hand came up. With the blinds at $2,000-$4,000 and an ante of $500 a man, Michael picked up A-A in first position and folded it. I stand by Michael's play and claim that it was the right move, 100 percent! Why do I support the laydown? How can it be correct to fold pocket aces before the flop? Well, here are the facts: Michael was at the table before the final card was dealt, he had the chip lead at the table, there were 55 players left, and 45 of them were going to get paid. So, what the heck was going on here? Michael Madsen is a famous actor who has been in 64 movies. You might know him from Reservoir Dogs, a recent James Bond movie (as Felix), or his starring role in Kill Bill: Volume Two. Or, perhaps, you know him as the lead character (Don Everest, nicknamed "The Matador") in the new ESPN series Tilt. By the way, ESPN's World Championship of Poker exists only in the show Tilt. Things went down like this: I was on the set of Tilt, sitting in the No. 7 seat, with The Matador in the No. 4 seat, when the director, Jeremiah Chechik, said, "Michael, we will deal you a hand, and you fold it and walk over to talk to another character on the rail." Michael then looked at his hand, but it took him almost a full minute to fold it. I noticed that he was slow to fold the hand, but thought nothing of it. When the scene was over and we were all sitting back down for the next take, Michael looked over at the dealer and said, "What the hell, man, why did you have to deal me pocket aces that last hand?" I said, "I noticed that it took a long time for you to fold." Michael responded, "No kidding, man, it was pocket aces." At this point, a good laugh was had by all. I then said, "That's the only time I've ever heard of it being correct to throw away pocket aces before the flop!" Look for my scene in episode eight, where I conduct myself with my usual table decorum … By the way, poker star Annie Duke tells me that she has folded pocket aces before the flop on at least one occasion. Of course, there are situations in which this would be the correct play. For example, in a supersatellite when you have, say, 30 percent of the chips, eight players win seats, there are nine players remaining, and a player with more chips than you moves all in, it would be correct to fold pocket aces. Why risk getting eliminated when you're only a 4.5-to-1 or less favorite? Why not simply fold and wait for someone else to go broke? After all, the eight players all get paid the same in a supersatellite. It is a very rare case indeed that it would actually be correct to fold pocket aces before the flop, but it just goes to show you, never say never in poker! Chat or play poker with Phil at UltimateBet.com. To learn more about him, or his books and DVDs, go to PhilHellmuth.com; for Phil's cellphone game, check out HellmuthHoldem.com.

[Guest gazza271]

Re: Folding KK

Don't know about that Gaz but I remember when rivrd was the short stack and pushed allin you were the bb I think you had about 4000 chips you were getting 3/1 on your money and folded' date=' it would have cost you 600, maybe you can dig that hand out and we can have a look at it.[/quote'] Will have a look at the HH later mate and dig it out, just the 3 of us left ?

[slapdash]

Re: Folding KK In these situations, it's right to fold a lot to raises. But ideally you don't want people to know that you'll fold to raises, or they'll keep raising you with nothing. I've sometimes wondered, if you're likely to get into these situations many times with the same opponents, whether it might be a good idea to make the odd lunatic call, decreasing your tournament equity but maybe increasing your lifetime equity if they remember. Also, over a year ago, I was playing in a satellite with eight to qualify, and when it was down to the last nine, the stacks were pretty equal. Each player had about an 89% chance of qualifying, and so should never call an all-in, as he'll never be as much as an 8-1 favourite. So if all the players are rational and know that the other players are rational, UTG should shove every hand and everybody should fold ... at least until the blinds get very large ... making for a rather boring game. I did shove every time I could get my chips in first. And some muppet called me with a rag hand like AA and knocked me out. :sad

[GaF]

Re: Folding KK

Jeez Gaf read the ******* article. :eyes

Hehe - I read your quote Quote:

Originally Posted by Worlds Best NLHE Player By the way, poker star Annie Duke tells me that she has folded pocket aces before the flop on at least one occasion. Of course, there are situations in which this would be the correct play. For example, in a supersatellite when you have, say, 30 percent of the chips, eight players win seats, there are nine players remaining, and a player with more chips than you moves all in, it would be correct to fold pocket aces. Why risk getting eliminated when you're only a 4.5-to-1 or less favorite? Why not simply fold and wait for someone else to go broke? After all, the eight players all get paid the same in a supersatellite. It is a very rare case indeed that it would actually be correct to fold pocket aces before the flop, but it just goes to show you, never say never in poker!

[SteveO]

Re: Folding KK

Will have a look at the HH later mate and dig it out' date=' just the 3 of us left ?[/quote'] No Gaz it was, whilst RIVRD was still in!

[Valiant23]

Re: Folding KK

I did shove every time I could get my chips in first. And some muppet called me with a rag hand like AA and knocked me out. :sad

I won't ask whether it was SteveO cos I've already had my go. :lol ;)

[slapdash]

Re: Folding KK

I won't ask whether it was SteveO cos I've already had my go. :lol ;)

No. I think he was called Trevor, or some name like that ... :unsure

[Guest gazza271]

Re: Folding KK

No Gaz it was' date=' whilst RIVRD was still in![/quote'] :lol:$ sorry, just read it properly !!