Hand from VC Tourny last night

[FatBoyFat]

No poker targets for me [yet] in 2008 but I am going to try and spend more time playing MTTs to try and improve my tournament play. To that end I wanted to post my thoughts on a hand that I played in the VC tourney last night and get your comments. Blinds are 150/300, I have a stack of 3,695, player 1, who is a solid player with some moves like most on PL, has me covered with 7,305.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Player 1 limps in MP. I raise from the button with TT to 1,200, my standard 3BB R plus one extra BB for the limp. Puts 1,950 in the pot, and excluding implied odds gives player 1 a price of 2.2 to 1 [decimal 3.2, 31%] to make the call.

Now I’m using these odds through this post and I’m not sure I have go them right. I’m getting a bit mixed up between fractional odds, decimal odds and percentages.

But basically I am thinking that from these odds as long as Player 1’s hand beats my range 31% of the time then they are right to make the call.

Question 1 – Was my raise too small here? I was thinking that if Player 1 was limping with AJ/AT, low PP or suited connectors the raise would chase them out of the pot? Having done the calculations and given that Player 1 has me well covered I am not sure this was correct. What would you raise to?

My thought process, if I am being honest is that I wasn’t really thinking about the size of the raise, somewhere along the way for MTT’s I have learnt to do the standard 3BB raise plus chuck another one in for each limper. I mix it up a bit with what I raise with, but I tend to stick to this approach so that my raise shouldn’t reveal my hand.

Now my raise here leaves me with 2,495 chips, so from what I learnt in Harrington an M of just above 5. If I remember Harrington correctly then once you get your M below 5 you are really in a push or fold situation.

I could raise more, say to 1,800, but then player 1 is still getting just odds of 1.7 to 1 for the call. Against my range I would imagine that his hand is still price in for the call, especially given that he has me covered.

If I do raise to 1,800 then this leaves me with about 1,900 chips, or an M of just over 4. So if I don’t take down the pot I will have a difficult flop decision as I may not get a better spot to stick my chips in.

Question 2 - As an aside to the hand that played out, if the SB or BB, who are yet to act, put me all in, or if Player 1 was limping with a monster [unlikely from MP] and RR all-in then I think I am looking priced in to call [assuming it would be a heads-up decision].

If I had raised to 1,200 then I would be calling with 2,495 to win 5,645 [150+300+300+1200+3695]; odds of 2.25 to 1 [decimal 3.25, 31%]

If I had raised to 1,800 then I would be calling with 1,895 to win 6,245 [150+300+300+1800+3695]; odds of 3.3 to 1 [decimal 4.3, 23%]

Assuming an all-in range of AA-QQ, AKs + AKo [do you think this range is reasonable for an all-in re-raise] I will win with TT 36% of the time according to pokerstove. If my maths is correct this equates to a probability of winning of 1.7 to 1 [decimal 2.7, probability 36%].

Therefore I would be correct to call if I get re-raised all-in whether I raise to 1,200 or 1,800. Knowing that would I be better off to raise all in preflop? This seems excessive given that my stack is about 12BB’s.

Moving back to the hand in question …….

SB and BB fold and Player 1 calls putting 2,850 in the pot.

Question 3 - What range would you put player 1 on now? I’m interested in the answer to this question to see if I am being too conservative when I limp and then fold to a raise.

Now that he has called are you looking to improve on the flop before you will put any more chips in?

The flop came 7d5d4s, putting a flush and straight draw out there. I wasn’t worried about the straight draw but wanted to price out any flush draws.

Player 1 checks to me and with 2,850 in the pot and 2,495 left I pushed all-in with my overpair.

Question 4 – What do you think of the all-in push here?

I think it is fit or fold time, a small bet isn’t chasing a flush draw away, but even an all-in isn’t probably chasing the flush draw away given the odds, although I didn’t think that at the time. A small bet would leave my chip stack so crippled that I would feel compelled to call a re-raise.

The hand played itself out …..

Question 5 – Am I a spanner for thinking about the hand in this much detail?

[robilaruk]

Re: Hand from VC Tourny last night

Question 5 – Am I a spanner for thinking about the hand in this much detail?

no you are not a spanner at all - thinking about hands and discussing then is a great way of improving your game. I will re-read you post and post my thoughts. Damo

[GaF]

Re: Hand from VC Tourny last night

no you are not a spanner at all - thinking about hands and discussing then is a great way of improving your game.

Absolutely :ok So long as it doesn't turn out to be just a bad beat moan :tongue2 :moon :moon :moon I will try and come back to it for some proper, concentrated thought when there is less going on :loon

[happyhornet]

Re: Hand from VC Tourny last night Question 1. With 150/300 blinds your M is about 8 which doesn't give you a huge amount of leeway with regards to any raise that is not all-in, epsecially when there is a limper in front of you. I think your re-raise is about right. You don't mind if you take the pot down here, and unless the blinds have a monster you are heads up with position after the flop. Question 2. If either blind re-re-raised all in, you must believe they have got you beat. there are better stat guys out there that will tell you whether you do have the odds to call, my instinct would be to fold in this case. Question 3. By calling a big raise out of position I would probably put them on AJs KQs (and probably be wrong:tongue2) or something like that. Question 4. I agree totally. I wouldn't be concerned too much about the straight, the cards are probably too low to help, but the flush has to be a consideration. Also if an overcard comes up, you are in a difficult situation. Last but not least, you have less than the pot, you have to bet and it is pointless betting less than the pot here. Question 5. In a word. No.

[robilaruk]

Re: Hand from VC Tourny last night As promised: Personally I think your raise is too small here given your chip stack - you have put 30% of your chip stack into the middle and it is costing the villian only 12% or so of his stack to call and see the flop (900 more is an easy call after limping). With only 12 BB left and a limp in front I would be shoving, that way villian is putting in half his stack if he wants to play. I think you sum it up perfectly at the end of question one*, if you raise more and get called you are in a tricky situation, so it is best to make your life as easy as possible and shove, that way you have no more decisions to make, only the villian does. *> Question 2 - yes defo calling if you are reraised AI by a single player - I would fold if SB shoves, BB shoves and MP limper calls/shoves. I might fold if there are two shoves in front of me as well (dependant on who they are/how desperate/loose I think they are), but against one opponent I am calling every day of the week here, you only fear AA-JJ and it is about 25-1 or so (?) that they have the bigger pair and the pot odds are good enough to call the AI re-raise. Question3 - range? from a solid player? not AA-KK, even a solid player would re-raise PF, unless they have a specific read and know you will bet the flop regardless. QQ-JJ is more likely, hoping to either flop a set/not see a A or K, any other PP and they must be looking for a set/draw to play on the flop. I would include AK/AQ and AJ/A10 (suited only) as well here, a limp to see a cheap flop and a call to see what happens (not a tactic I would choose to play generally. If I am first into the pot I prefer to raise and put others to the sword first, not the other way around). I would not expect to see some crap like Q10s etc hands that are too easily dominated by your 'AQ' etc, you might see 87s etc if they think you do have AQ etc. Question4: easy shove if villian checks, too much in the middle to fold, no point 'value' betting as any re-raise means you have to call given your chipstack, so just ship it in!! I think this is an excellent question and some excellent reasoning from you:ok There is one scenario you haven''t discussed (I am ignoring folding PF as that is bonkers) - the limp call with position and see the flop first. There might be an arguement from that if you put the villian on the 'Ax' range of hands, with no broadway cards on the flop you bet and get to take the pot however it might encourage the SB to limp and the BB gets to see the flop for free. Personally I don't think 10 10 is strong enough for that move in this situation (blinds to chip stack ratio) but is something that I would do at early levels when I have 40BB+ and hope to hit set etc. Cheers Damo

[FatBoyFat]

Re: Hand from VC Tourny last night Cheers for the reply fella, definitely got me thinking a bit more about my play. Where I think I may be going wrong is that as long as my M is above 5 I'm ususally looking to do a standard 3BB R and see where it goes from there. I'm now starting to think that maybe I should up this cut-off such that when I do find a hand worth raising with, I would be better off pushing all-in. One way of looking at it would be that the sweet spot is around an M of 7 without limpers and a slightly higher M if there are limpers. Another approach would be if the raise would take my M to less than 5 I would be better off pushing. Another approach would be to look at my chip stack and if the raise would take up, say 30% of my stack, then I would be better off pushing. I'm still not convinced this is the right strategy but will continue to think it through and put some maths behind it. My concern with pusing with TT for example is that most of the hands that call me will have me beat or at best I'm a coin flip. It also seems overkill for example that once the blinds hit 50/100 I should be looking to push with a stack of 1,000 [M of 6.7] as a raise of 300 [30% of my stack] would leave me with an M of less than 5. I'd normally be happy to be left with a stack of 700 and have a decision to make. Accept this could easily be the wrong approach though, it's just the way I have played for years and need to get it right in my own mind to change my game. Cheers FBF

As promised: Personally I think your raise is too small here given your chip stack - you have put 30% of your chip stack into the middle and it is costing the villian only 12% or so of his stack to call and see the flop (900 more is an easy call after limping). With only 12 BB left and a limp in front I would be shoving, that way villian is putting in half his stack if he wants to play. I think you sum it up perfectly at the end of question one*, if you raise more and get called you are in a tricky situation, so it is best to make your life as easy as possible and shove, that way you have no more decisions to make, only the villian does. *http://www.dombo.org/Misc/deck_fsb/qs.gif" in.>> Question 2 - yes defo calling if you are reraised AI by a single player - I would fold if SB shoves, BB shoves and MP limper calls/shoves. I might fold if there are two shoves in front of me as well (dependant on who they are/how desperate/loose I think they are), but against one opponent I am calling every day of the week here, you only fear AA-JJ and it is about 25-1 or so (?) that they have the bigger pair and the pot odds are good enough to call the AI re-raise. Question3 - range? from a solid player? not AA-KK, even a solid player would re-raise PF, unless they have a specific read and know you will bet the flop regardless. QQ-JJ is more likely, hoping to either flop a set/not see a A or K, any other PP and they must be looking for a set/draw to play on the flop. I would include AK/AQ and AJ/A10 (suited only) as well here, a limp to see a cheap flop and a call to see what happens (not a tactic I would choose to play generally. If I am first into the pot I prefer to raise and put others to the sword first, not the other way around). I would not expect to see some crap like Q10s etc hands that are too easily dominated by your 'AQ' etc, you might see 87s etc if they think you do have AQ etc. Question4: easy shove if villian checks, too much in the middle to fold, no point 'value' betting as any re-raise means you have to call given your chipstack, so just ship it in!! I think this is an excellent question and some excellent reasoning from you:ok There is one scenario you haven''t discussed (I am ignoring folding PF as that is bonkers) - the limp call with position and see the flop first. There might be an arguement from that if you put the villian on the 'Ax' range of hands, with no broadway cards on the flop you bet and get to take the pot however it might encourage the SB to limp and the BB gets to see the flop for free. Personally I don't think 10 10 is strong enough for that move in this situation (blinds to chip stack ratio) but is something that I would do at early levels when I have 40BB+ and hope to hit set etc. Cheers Damo