Help, please.

[happyhornet]

I have just been eliminated from a tourney with this hand. PokerStars Game #9285842443: Tournament #46772133, $8.00+$0.80 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2007/04/06 - 17:36:28 (ET) Table '46772133 127' 9-max Seat #9 is the button Seat 1: touficos77 (2940 in chips) Seat 2: happyhornet (3500 in chips) Seat 3: RU_kelly (15954 in chips) Seat 4: willywonk (6125 in chips) is sitting out Seat 5: titian44 (4912 in chips) is sitting out Seat 6: katoluv (2485 in chips) Seat 7: kevjones83 (5282 in chips) Seat 8: Aliqua2006 (5970 in chips) Seat 9: peppers2k5 (8404 in chips) touficos77: posts the ante 25 happyhornet: posts the ante 25 RU_kelly: posts the ante 25 willywonk: posts the ante 25 titian44: posts the ante 25 katoluv: posts the ante 25 kevjones83: posts the ante 25 Aliqua2006: posts the ante 25 peppers2k5: posts the ante 25 touficos77: posts small blind 100 happyhornet: posts big blind 200 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to happyhornet [Qh 4h] peppers2k5 said, "nothing more" RU_kelly: calls 200 willywonk: folds titian44: folds katoluv: folds kevjones83: folds Aliqua2006: folds peppers2k5: calls 200 touficos77: calls 100 happyhornet: checks *** FLOP *** [Qc Qs 8d] touficos77: checks happyhornet: checks RU_kelly: checks peppers2k5: checks *** TURN *** [Qc Qs 8d] [5c] touficos77: checks happyhornet: checks RU_kelly: checks peppers2k5: bets 200 touficos77: calls 200 happyhornet: calls 200 RU_kelly: folds *** RIVER *** [Qc Qs 8d 5c] [5s] touficos77: checks happyhornet: bets 600 peppers2k5 said, "omg" peppers2k5: raises 1000 to 1600 touficos77: folds happyhornet: raises 1475 to 3075 and is all-in peppers2k5: calls 1475 *** SHOW DOWN *** happyhornet: shows [Qh 4h] (a full house, Queens full of Fives) peppers2k5: shows [8s Qd] (a full house, Queens full of Eights) peppers2k5 collected 7775 from pot sourie is connected *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 7775 | Rake 0 Board [Qc Qs 8d 5c 5s] Seat 1: touficos77 (small blind) folded on the River Seat 2: happyhornet (big blind) showed [Qh 4h] and lost with a full house, Queens full of Fives Seat 3: RU_kelly folded on the Turn Seat 4: willywonk folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: titian44 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: katoluv folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: kevjones83 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: Aliqua2006 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: peppers2k5 (button) showed [8s Qd] and won (7775) with a full house, Queens full of Eights I don't think I could have avoided it. Am I right? Please tell me if I am not.

[robilaruk]

Re: Help, please. I don't mind the check on the flop (assuming you are going to check raise of course) however, you MUST bet the turn whilst people still have draws otherwise if the river is a blank you wont win any more than whats in the middle already, or (even worse) you give another free card to beat you. I would bet around 2/3 pot on the turn and call any shove reraise, otherwise I would be AI on the river regardless of the card if I was just called on the turn - as there is too much in the middle to fold at this point you are just UL on this occasion Damo

[AJ]

Re: Help, please. You hit top trips on the flop and a full house on the turn. Difficult to get away from that. I might have folded it if he'd bet large into the flop putting him on Q x and thinking myself out kicked. But he played it cute and checked it. I'd have bet about 800 into that flop, if he'd raised me hard I'd have folded putting him on better kicker. Once the 5 came out for your full house you were dead. You've got to stand and die with a hand like that. No way can put him on Q 8, which is the only hand that can beat you. so in summary, difficult but not impossible to get away from, you should have made a serious bet at the flop to gather information about the other players hands. Your in the dark about the strength of their hands. You need to ask questions of them. You were passive and gave people a free card. In this case it didn't matter, but in another hand it could have been something that burst your queens. If you let people limp in with drawing hands for nothing, they'll rape you if they hit.

[spannerjago]

Re: Help, please. Id have gone out as well! Possibly you didnt need to reraise the river. It would have been hard to put him on Q8 and he could at a stretch have had 55 as he limped in and didn't bet the flop. I would have done the same as you but possibly the correct move would have been to just call and leave yourself some chips if you were behind. If he had a Q he was calling whatever and you would have split the pot anyway. All I can say is UL.

[AJ]

Re: Help, please. just reread this, i thought you had Q5 for soem reason, not Q4. With this in mind, I think you let yourself in for trouble here, there is a huge danger you are outkicked, with a set and a low kicker you need to ask some serious questions. A decent bet at the turn or river would have let you know he had the other Q and that you were behind.

[happyhornet]

Re: Help, please.

just reread this, i thought you had Q5 for soem reason, not Q4. With this in mind, I think you let yourself in for trouble here, there is a huge danger you are outkicked, with a set and a low kicker you need to ask some serious questions. A decent bet at the turn or river would have let you know he had the other Q and that you were behind.

Thanks for all the feedback. :ok With regard to the above comment AJ, it didn't even arise as a possibility that he had the other queen until the river. I assumed (wrongly) that I was well ahead, the board held no flush or straight draws, and I guessed the free cards were a risk worth taking. My thought being if no-one has an 8 or a Q, a bet on the flop may force everyone out of the pot. With hindsight, a bet on the turn, if called or re-raised would have let me know the other Queen might be out there. Saying that, I'm not sure that I am good enough to lay the set down!!

[robilaruk]

Re: Help, please. I wouldn't lay the set down if I am raised on the turn - too many chips to win with the blinds this big - I would be shoving - in this particular situation laying down trips is not a good play make it first hand of the tourny and you get reraised AI after investing only about 100 chips or so and yes, it probably is a good lay down - but not now - u need chips desperately - u have about 12 BB left after betting 800 or so - u cannot let the opportunity go to double up - it would be extremely weak to lay down turn or river to a raise IMO - unless of course folks are just interested in limping into the cash and not going for FT top 3 - in which case just check it down and fold to a min bet YMMV of course Damo

. With hindsight, a bet on the turn, if called or re-raised would have let me know the other Queen might be out there. Saying that, I'm not sure that I am good enough to lay the set down!!

[AJ]

Re: Help, please. I'm very tight with this kind of thing. Playing a live game last monday night, I had A 4 in the big blind, not raised so I checked it. Flop came out A A 9, one guy halfway round the table rasied 5x BB. I folded. It was jsut too dangerous to get involved in with a weak kicker. (I know the guy and respect his game btw). I showed my Ace and got mocked for my fold (he had K 9), but I still maintain it was the right thing to do.

[Valiant23]

Re: Help, please. I've read this from top to bottom and I see nothing wrong with your play. You're in the BB and hit top set. Why Pepper was in the hand I don't know. Anyway, a check on the flop wasn't the worst move here but a bet out here would help define your position to you even if you believe you are ahead a call or a re-raise should set the alarm bells ringing and have you a tad wary of Q10 or say QJ. When the pair comes on the river you're only behind to quad 5's or Q8 and sometimes you have to be prepared to play the hand and accept it if you're beaten but my guess is you thought that you were splitting it at worst.