couple of hands for you to pick over

[morlspin]

Tonight in the Paradise Poker $1 sat to the $25 freezeout i was dealt these two hands 3 hands apart, didnt think id played them badly but was shafted big style on both, did i do owt wrong? Game #1844730156 - Tournament Satellite - Paros $1k - 200/400 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2007/01/27-16:57:25.6 (CST) Table "Sat-Paros 3" (MTT) -- Seat 3 is the button Seat 2: GOMES363 (9,665 in chips) Seat 3: morlspin (2,525 in chips) Seat 4: DJW1001 (9,980 in chips) Seat 5: manuman (5,780 in chips) Seat 7: venus222 (3,460 in chips) Seat 8: roybob (1,850 in chips) Seat 9: gravel (1,725 in chips) morlspin: Ante (25) DJW1001 : Ante (25) manuman : Ante (25) venus222: Ante (25) roybob : Ante (25) gravel : Ante (25) GOMES363: Ante (25) DJW1001 : Post Small Blind (200) manuman : Post Big Blind (400) Dealing... Dealt to morlspin [ Qs ] Dealt to morlspin [ Js ] venus222: Fold roybob : Call (400) gravel : Fold GOMES363: Call (400) morlspin: Call (400) DJW1001 : Call (200) manuman : Check *** FLOP *** : [ 2d Ts 4h ] DJW1001 : Check manuman : Check roybob : Check GOMES363: Check morlspin: Check *** TURN *** : [ 2d Ts 4h ] [ Jc ] DJW1001 : Check manuman : Check roybob : Check GOMES363: Bet (500) morlspin: Raise (2,100) DJW1001 : Fold manuman : Fold roybob : Fold GOMES363: Call (1,600) *** RIVER *** : [ 2d Ts 4h Jc ] [ 5c ] *** SUMMARY *** Pot: 6,375 | Board: [ 2d Ts 4h Jc 5c ] GOMES363 bet 2,525, collected 6,375, net +3,850 (showed hand) [ 5h Jh ] (two pair, jacks and fives) morlspin lost 2,525 (showed hand) [ Qs Js ] (a pair of jacks) DJW1001 lost 425 (folded) manuman lost 425 (folded) venus222 lost 25 (folded) roybob lost 425 (folded) gravel lost 25 (folded) _______________________________________________________________________ Game #1844731710 - Tournament Satellite - Paros $1k - 200/400 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2007/01/27-16:59:40.4 (CST) Table "Sat-Paros 3" (MTT) -- Seat 5 is the button Seat 2: GOMES363 (16,290 in chips) Seat 3: morlspin (2,975 in chips) Seat 4: DJW1001 (7,730 in chips) Seat 5: manuman (4,930 in chips) Seat 6: chestnut 21 (2,575 in chips) Seat 7: venus222 (3,410 in chips) Seat 8: roybob (1,400 in chips) Seat 9: gravel (1,675 in chips) morlspin: Ante (25) DJW1001 : Ante (25) manuman : Ante (25) chestnut 21: Ante (25) venus222: Ante (25) roybob : Ante (25) gravel : Ante (25) GOMES363: Ante (25) chestnut 21: Post Small Blind (200) venus222: Post Big Blind (400) Dealing... Dealt to morlspin [ Ad ] Dealt to morlspin [ Ah ] roybob : Fold gravel : Fold GOMES363: Fold morlspin: Raise (800) DJW1001 : Call (800) manuman : Fold chestnut 21: Call (600) venus222: Fold *** FLOP *** : [ 8c Js 9d ] chestnut 21: Check morlspin: Bet (2,150) DJW1001 : Raise (6,905) chestnut 21: Fold *** TURN *** : [ 8c Js 9d ] [ 9h ] *** RIVER *** : [ 8c Js 9d 9h ] [ 2d ] *** SUMMARY *** Pot: 7,300 | Board: [ 8c Js 9d 9h 2d ] GOMES363 lost 25 (folded) morlspin lost 2,975 (showed hand) [ Ad Ah ] (two pair, aces and nines) DJW1001 bet 7,730, collected 12,055, net +4,325 (showed hand) [ Tc Qh ] (a straight, eight to queen) manuman lost 25 (folded) chestnut 21 lost 825 (folded) venus222 lost 425 (folded) roybob lost 25 (folded) gravel lost 25 (folded)

[psychosi]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over Looks like it's one of those occasions when bad poker has been rewarded Morl. In the 1st hand you've hit your jack made a decent sized raise and he's made a call with top pair 5 kicker. What kind of hands does he think he's beating?? Anyway after he's made the all-in move on the river you've made the correct move there by folding (well thats what i think it is as i'm not totally familair with hand history's) as you were behind so don't see anything wrong there. As for the AA, think the only thing i'd do differently is make the intial raise a little larger. I find the only problem with min raising at such small levels ($1 tourney) is that people are inclined to call with any two cards, like Q10 (bad call imo) and every now and again will flop a monster. Saying that if you did make the initial raise a little larger it is more likely that people will fold, meaning you just take the blinds. Think it's all down to personal preference as to how big you make the raise. For me it'd be 3xBB. As for calling the all-in re-raise on the flop what kind of hands could you put him on?? Flopped a set with 88, 99 or JJ, then why push all-in. It is a dangerous board but not sure i'd have pushed. Flopped 2 pair v.unlikely given that board. Q10, 10 7, unlikely given that he called the pre-flop raise. Could have pushed with QQ, KK in which case u've made the right move. So imo i'd have called too tho i am very aggressive with big hands (like AA as you found the other week when u knocked me out of the PL private tourney on Paradise after flopping trip Q's) Would like to see what others would have done differently. Si

[morlspin]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over Cheers Si On the 1st hand he bet 500 on the J on the turn and i pushed all in for my last 2100 so couldnt have told him im beating him much clearer, but like you say, bad play got rewarded again

[psychosi]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over

On the 1st hand he bet 500 on the J on the turn and i pushed all in for my last 2100 so couldnt have told him im beating him much clearer' date=' but like you say, bad play got rewarded again[/quote'] Just pray he's also in the next tourney you're in on there as making moves like that in the long run will only lead to an increase in your chipstack. :)

[morlspin]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over

As for calling the all-in re-raise on the flop what kind of hands could you put him on?? Flopped a set with 88, 99 or JJ, then why push all-in. It is a dangerous board but not sure i'd have pushed. Flopped 2 pair v.unlikely given that board. Q10, 10 7, unlikely given that he called the pre-flop raise. Could have pushed with QQ, KK in which case u've made the right move. So imo i'd have called too tho i am very aggressive with big hands (like AA as you found the other week when u knocked me out of the PL private tourney on Paradise after flopping trip Q's) Would like to see what others would have done differently. Si

Just seen this bit too sorry SI I was the one to push all in for my 2100 again, he went over the top of me, which again, i couldnt do anything about it:ok

[psychosi]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over

Just seen this bit too sorry SI I was the one to push all in for my 2100 again, he went over the top of me, which again, i couldnt do anything about it:ok

Sorry morl my mistake, tells me i should have gone to bed. :) After seeing a flop like that with AA i would have made the same move so i'd just put it down to a touch of bad fortune. I'm sure if you did the same thing 1000 times u'd win a hell of a lot more than you lost. Which if you would make money over the long period tells me you've that u've made the right move.

[GaF]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over Morl, Sorry m8, I dont like the way you played either hand!!! Hand 1, you called with JQs for just under 20% of your stack. JQs is typically a drawing hand, and by limping pre flop you played it as such, however, because your stack was so small, it is unlikely that you had the implied odds required - if you did hit, you wouldn't be paid off enough on average to justify the pre flop call. As it is, you have 4 opponents and "hit" the J on the turn - so you have a pair of jacks with a queen kicker - that's NOT what you're looking for when you're drawing with JQs. Your opponent put in a VERY weak bet - 25% of the pot and you come over the top - with his chip stack and top pair, it doesn't surprise me that he calls you - you've lost a lot of your fold equity and are offering him 3-1 in a hand in which you're shown no strength until the turn....... As it happens you were ahead, and he hit a lucky river ........ What would I have done differently? Pre flop for me, it is either all in or fold - limping is not an option. I'm not sure which I would have done - but PROBABLY all in...... which would probably win 775 chips there and then (J5s probably wont be calling - if any of the others called, looks like you beat them and have doubled up!!) Hand 2 - Again, don't like the minimum raise with the AA - at this stage, you just dont have the play in your stack to be doing that - it's all in or fold, and you're not folding!!!! If you raise all in, and everyone folds, then you are only the blinds and antes, 750 chips - you're increasing your stack by 25% without a showdown - not a disaster by any means!!! Your opponent is abviously a long way ahead on the flop and you are only drawing to runner runner outs, but don't think you could get away from it (which is why I dislike the min raise pre flop so much!!)

[robilaruk]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over yes and no most of the time just fold, do not limp any cards - especially Qj etc - just too vulnerable with a family pot and when you raise - raise hard (i.e. shove) - you will still get called you have to play hyper aggressive with good cards in the super sats, any 'reasonable' raise has 4 or 5 callers normally hoping to hit, a shove narrows that down to 2 callers (or 3 :eyes ) Damo

Tonight in the Paradise Poker $1 sat to the $25 freezeout i was dealt these two hands 3 hands apart, didnt think id played them badly but was shafted big style on both, did i do owt wrong?

[robilaruk]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over to clarify - hyper during the rebuy period, people call 10XBB raises with anything, so just shove and make that only 3 callers against your aces Damo

you have to play hyper aggressive with good cards in the super sats, any 'reasonable' raise has 4 or 5 callers normally hoping to hit, a shove narrows that down to 2 callers (or 3 :eyes ) Damo

[Valiant23]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over They are his cards to do with as he likes so I couldn't possibly comment, sorry. Nor should anyone else either.

[GaF]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over Unless he asks for feedback :unsure

[Valiant23]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over Hand 1 (JQ suited late position) Obviously you were prepared to hang your tournament on this if you hit, and the checks on the flop suggesteed there was no danger so when the J hit on the turn you pushed. I can only assume the bigger stack thought you were bluffing or drawing (KQ would fit as you wouldn't realistically play 35) and was prepared to donk off 2,000 chips on the off-chance he was being outkicked - he surely has to know that IF he's up against another flopped J that he's behind. He's on a 3 outer and hit. Unlucky. :sad Saying that, if you are prepared to hang your tourney on that hand I agree with Gaf that all in may have been a better choice. Hand 2 (AA on the button) What to do here? You have 2 choices as a small stack. All in pre-flop and nick the blinds or min. raise then all in post flop. I can only assume that you had a read on the blinds that suggested that you wouldn't get called if you pushed all in pre-flop, hence the "min. raise - all in on the flop regardless" move. Obviously the latter is riskier and as annoying as it is when it happens you should have to accept losing your tourney is the chance you take by trying to double/triple through.

[morlspin]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over Thanks for the feedback lads, its making good reading Regarding hand two, with the AA: I thought if i raised all in with these pre-flop id just steal the blinds, and to be honest, i wanted more than that and got beaten on the flop when his str8 arrived, could have went the other way and id have quadrupled up with peoples calls of my min raise but just wasnt meant to be

[voiceofjoe]

Re: couple of hands for you to pick over The biggest factor in this tourney was the fact that it was a rebuy. Any premium hand (i.e Hand 2 AA) im pushing All-in pre flop, with the blinds the size they were you should be guaranteed a caller - no need to trap in the rebuy period. You would still have lost if the QT had called obviously - but is a medium sized stack wanting to risk almost 1/2 his stack on QT - very unlikely. More probably short stack or a weaker Ace,or Pocket Pair would have been calling Hand 1 - If the blinds had been smaller then limping is fine, but as GaF says you have'nt the stack to limp in, so it would be All-In or fold. Personally,with 2 already in the pot, i'd have folded -I don't really fancy QJ in a race as your behind to so many hands.