DAN DAN Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Here's my question, Is it possible to become a good poker player without knowing odds? Implied etc. I am not mathematical, I can't do mental arithmetic and still count with my fingers :eek so I will NEVER be able to work out the odds of certain cards coming out. I've tried reading about odds but I also have a lousy memory, not got much going for me actually :eek but I can draw a nice picture of a pair of aces for you ;) Anyway all I can do is when I play I look at the pot, my stack etc and then go on, well, how often do I actually hit those cards and take it from there. There is no actual working it out and obviously the hitch is that maybe I think I hit certain cards more often than I actually do. So should I accept that I will level off at a particular level or does instinct actually mean my subconscience can count? Opinions greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? Here's my question, Is it possible to become a good poker player without knowing odds? Implied etc. I am not mathematical, I can't do mental arithmetic and still count with my fingers :eek so I will NEVER be able to work out the odds of certain cards coming out. I've tried reading about odds but I also have a lousy memory, not got much going for me actually :eek but I can draw a nice picture of a pair of aces for you ;) Anyway all I can do is when I play I look at the pot, my stack etc and then go on well how often do I actually hit those cards and take it from there. There is no actual working it out and obviously the hitch is that maybe I think I hit certain cards more often than I actually do. So should I accept that I will level off at a particular level or does instinct actually mean my subconscience can count? Opinions greatly appreciated. G is the best poker player in the world Great Question DD, im in the same boat as you are :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAN DAN Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? Great Question DD' date=' im in the same boat as you are :ok[/quote'] G you quoted me before I could sort my spelling mistake :lol Another thing I'm not too good at.:rollin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick mick Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? When I started I had a little cheat sheet next to the computer with odds for how many outs so I could work out when to call and when to fold but I also used instinct a lot of the time. I can now work out pot odds fairly quickly but find it's just a small (but important) part of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaban Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? I'm not too bad with numbers, but along way from being perfect, some of the stats and percentages people quote, most of the time make me scratch my head, apparently an allin bet with a pairs of 8s will win the pot 78% of the time !!!! - how the hell is that one worked out ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ed- Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? Diane, you say you don't know odds etc, count with yer fingers (she does:$ ) too, but, when you play poker you instictively know (roughly) what your chances are in any given situation, very basic but important is the old rule of 4. If you have an open ended straight draw then there are 8 cards you need in order to hit, 8 x 4 = 32, so you have a 32% chance or 1 in 3 chance, make sense?:ok :cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAN DAN Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? Diane' date=' you say you don't know odds etc, count with yer fingers (she does:$ ) too, but, when you play poker you instictively know (roughly) what your chances are in any given situation, very basic but important is the old rule of [b']4. If you have an open ended straight draw then there are 8 cards you need in order to hit, 8 x 4 = 32, so you have a 32% chance or 1 in 3 chance, make sense?:ok :cheers Well I need to know that there is 8 possible cards out there firstly, then what that is x 4, then i need to see what's in the pot, my fingers are a blur by now and I've timed out :lol :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? G you quoted me before I could sort my spelling mistake :lol Another thing I'm not too good at.:rollin Check it again.....i think its changed ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? spot on - just get yourself a check sheet - and mostly its hitting my flush hitting my straight hitting my gutshot pot odds are also useful when you have the made hand and the villian is chasing - so you try to make sure you are giving them incorrect odds to call implied odds are entirely different! - that is, IF i hit my flush how much more can I make from my oppo?? - if it is nothing and you are getting the wrong odds to call his bet before you have the flush then you should fold, however if you can make some more money after the flush card appears, them you can count the implied odds into whether you call (so to make it easy, you are 4-1 to hit your flush card and the villian bets $5 into a $5 pot, your current pot odds are 2-1 ($5 to win $10) so if you KNOW that villian will not call another bet if the flush hits you should fold, however if you think he may at least call a small bet (another $5 for instance) then the implied odds are greater, so it is probably correct to call for the 2-1 shot (this help?) Damo When I started I had a little cheat sheet next to the computer with odds for how many outs so I could work out when to call and when to fold but I also used instinct a lot of the time. I can now work out pot odds fairly quickly but find it's just a small (but important) part of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? I'm one of the 'thicko' brigade too!! :dude I lose track of some of these threads when the 'clever folk' start posting! :unsure (probably due to the drink killing off any brain cells I might've had :lol ) I'll struggle on though! :ok TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAN DAN Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? Check it again.....i think its changed ;) Thanks G Damo I do get all the implied odds, pot odds etc but I can't work them out quickly enough so what I wanted to know was if people thought I was wasting my time trying to improve my poker without these advantages. Basically going with gut instinct, because I think when I do, somewhere in my head I must be working something out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAN DAN Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? I'm one of the 'thicko' brigade too!! :dude I lose track of some of these threads when the 'clever folk' start posting! :unsure (probably due to the drink killing off any brain cells I might've had :lol ) I'll struggle on though! :ok TQM Must be the very thin air in Scotland TQM, and it's getting thin when it gets to you G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULM03 Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? It depends on what game you play IMVHO pot odds aren't so important in tournament play. Many's the time I've folded drawing hand even though I was getting the right odds to draw - it just wasn't worth it in terms of the size of my stack. However (again IMVHO) if you play cash games a good knowledge of pot-odds and implied odds is essential as you essentially have an infinite bankroll (or really should have at least a bankroll of 200BB) so you're playing every hand for maximum EV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ed- Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? I'm one of the 'thicko' brigade too!! :dude :lol :lol :lol Me too TQM, must be a Scottish thing, seen someone on poker channel the other day rattling on about the rule of 4, as i said earlier though, you instinctively know where you're at i reckon. I don't even read the "clever" threads, tried once but had to stop as smoke was coming out my ears.;) :ok :cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? if you don't know that then you need to quick! maybe worth doing a google search for the usual occurances of pot odds like the OESD/flush etc - you can print out a nice table with one card to come and with two (i.e turn or flop) I wouldn't too much about the rule of 4 and percentages - look at it this way you have 10 J flop KQ5 rainbow - so you have 8 outs to hit the nut straight (4 aces and 4 nines) there are 47 cards you haven't seen - so 47/8= about 6 - so you are about 5-1 to hit it next card, and half that to hit it turn and river (about 3-1 as ed said) - so the pot is $10 and someone bets $2 - its an easy call as you are getting the correct odds however they bet $10, so you are now getting 2-1 ($10 to win $20) - thats when you have to make the choice Flush you hold A4s and have limped - the flop comes K J 6 - 2 of which are your suit - so again, there are 47 cards you haven't seen of which 9 of them are clubs (13 clubs in total minus the 4 you have seen) so 47/9 is about 5-1 - so you are about 4-1 to hit a club on the next card and about 2-1 on turn and river what you need to realise is that we are totally ignoring the fact that at a 10 seat table another 18 cards have been dealt that you have not seen - so you are potentailly missing clubs or Aces/Nines (1st example) as they could have been folded, but you must ignore this fact, otherwise the maths doesn't work! so just approach it from a simple 'pure' approach another couple of %tages to remember - you raise with AK, you will hit an Ace or King on the flop about 30% of the time - so 70% of the time you will miss (very useful if you want to steal a flop continuation bet!) you limp a small PP - you are about 7-1 to hit trips on the flop hope this helps Damo Well I need to know that there is 8 possible cards out there firstly' date=' then what that is x 4, then i need to see what's in the pot, my fingers are a blur by now and I've timed out :lol :lol[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULM03 Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? you limp a small PP - you are about 7-1 to hit trips on the flop These are nice hands to limp though because you usually have very nice implied odds:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? no you are not wasting your time trying to improve so if you can't do the maths quick enough - then print out a crib sheet and keep it handy (so you know what the chances are , and then you only have to figure out how much to cal vs the current pot (and as long as it is close that is good enough until you get better at it) good luck:ok Damo Thanks G Damo I do get all the implied odds, pot odds etc but I can't work them out quickly enough so what I wanted to know was if people thought I was wasting my time trying to improve my poker without these advantages. Basically going with gut instinct, because I think when I do, somewhere in my head I must be working something out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? well..... that depends....... ;) Damo These are nice hands to limp though because you usually have very nice implied odds:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazabroad Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? :lol :lol :lol Me too TQM, I don't even read the "clever" threads, tried once but had to stop as smoke was coming out :cheers Thought it was just me :$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? I think you can be a very good player without knowing pot odds, especially in the case of NL (limit is a bit more maths dependent). What you'll find, is you instinctively learn to fold/call in certain situations based on pot and implied odds, even though you couldn't put a number on it - eg you'll fold your flush draw because it 'feels' unprofitable to chase it, from experience of playing. The thing with odds tho, in my opinion - it's not that they're crucially important, beyond a very basic understanding of probability. It's that they're the one thing that's set in stone that you actually can learn with 100% certainty. Everything else in poker is vague and full of grey areas and human psychology. Top players say something like 'there's no excuse not to know them' - not because they're the most important factor in deciding how to play a hand, just because you CAN know them. People often comment on players like Phil Ivey who appears to blatantly disregards odds all the time, that they must not be that important. But without a shadow of a doubt he knows his odds inside out and could recite them in any given hand. Knowing them (and importantly, knowing his opponent knows them) means he has one more factor to base his decision on. I think of it as similar to the way great writers break grammatical rules all the time - to do it effectively, you have to know those rules in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAN DAN Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? Very nice post Guesswest, no excuses then just need to go back and do a bit of studying :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? Just to add - I have no talent for maths. There probably are a few people who have some kind of unusual ability for mental arithmetic that just started working out odds without much effort, but I'd say they're a small minority. I think the vast majority of people, certainly including myself, just learned them from repetition. Same way darts players can calculate their outs with perfect accuracy on the fly - they're generally not mensans. If you can't do them quickly enough in a hand (and you don't get much time online) just use a calculator, soon enough you'll start remembering odds for particular situations without having to key them in. I'd say its 99% memory 1% ability - anyone can do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAN DAN Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? I'd say its 99% memory 1% ability - anyone can do it. You haven't seen me try to find my car keys then?:unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? :lol:lol:lol I forgot my postcode at the post office a couple days ago (lived here 3 years) - so if I can remember them anyone can! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? I'm probably the most mathematical person here (well, I do have an excuse, I ampaid to do maths), but it's actually quite rare that I do any kind of non-trivial mathematical calculation while I'm playing poker. Though I do so more often when I'm thinking about poker. In no-limit poker, and especially in tournaments, I doubt it very often happens that being able to calculate the odds gives you much of an advantage over somebody who has a rough intuitive idea of them. As Guesswest says, I suspect maths is more important in limit poker. ... why don't I play that? :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULM03 Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? As Guesswest says, I suspect maths is more important in limit poker. ... why don't I play that? :unsure What about in Tournament Vs Cash (NL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? I do not reply on pot odds at all. I rely on instinct and how the other players are playing. I will often play my opponants and then the cards. Especially on cash games. MTT's are different then I will play position with cards. But I am a crap player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? ... why don't I play that? :unsure I've been wondering exactly that every time I see you post about NL. I can't see why you wouldn't beat any low and medium stakes games comfortably. Just think, you could quit your day job (exciting and creative maths) to play poker full-time (boring and repetitive maths). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? That's me lost again!! :lol :lol :lol TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Re: How far can you go not knowing odds? I would say it isn't - you are probably always going to be given or giving the correct pot odds at limit (esp low levels) as the limits are fixed...... (fecking obvious statement that last bit:$ ) lets try an example you are on the BB with 64s, there is limp limp fold fold raise call fold fold call (sb) you - there are 10 BB in the pot and it costs you one to call - so you are getting 9-1 - no brainer even with 64 as you hand is not a 9-1 dog and lets say for arguements sake that both limpers call, so there are now 12 BB in the pot flop A 6 5 rainbow sb check you check check check original raiser - bet all others fold to you - its 13 BB in the middle and you have middle pair - you put villian on an Ace - and yes you are getting correct odds to call - its 12-1 odds and to hit a 6 or 4 you are 9-1 - so you call - the other 2 limpers also call turn is a 2 - you check and another 2 checks, villian bets there are now 18 BB in the middle and you are still 9-1 to hit your card - well you are getting you odds so you call (at this point who cares what the two limpers do) river is a 6........... far fetched? - not in my experience - even if you 2 or 3 bet PF and Flop you still end up with 4 or 5 callers - if you are late to act you are virtually guarenteed to be getting (or very close to getting) the appropriate pot odds you need to hit your gut shot or trips etc pot odds are pointless in FL, they play no part what so ever - its a game for robot monkeys who auto call with anything hoping to hit (of course at high level FL this might be different - I am talking 50/100 plus - I have watched a few games at 5/10 and 10/20 and you still get 4 callers and everyone action is capped with a three bet PF Flop and Turn........) maths is very important in NL - you can choose to call with the correct odds and you can choose to bet to give the incorrect odds, you cannot do that at FL Damo . As Guesswest says, I suspect maths is more important in limit poker. ... why don't I play that? :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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