morlspin Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 posted for teaulc......how can u call with 74:wall Hand #416054655 at table: Champs League-Rnd6 Started: Thu Sep 14 22:03:58 2006 oulton is at seat 1 with 11120.00 =BigAndy= is at seat 3 with 15945.00 millbet is at seat 4 with 3480.00 teaulc is at seat 5 with 1705.00 Sleekshot is at seat 9 with 4395.00 Griff505 is at seat 10 with 3640.00 Sleekshot posts the large blind 800.00 teaulc posts the small blind 400.00 teaulc: Qh, 7c Sleekshot: --, -- Griff505: --, -- oulton: --, -- =BigAndy=: --, -- millbet: --, -- Pre-flop: Griff505: Fold oulton: Fold =BigAndy=: Fold millbet: Fold teaulc: All in Sleekshot: Call 2105.00 Showdown: teaulc shows: Qh, 7c (high card, Queen) Flop (Board: 6d, Qd, Js): Turn (Board: 6d, Qd, Js, 5c): River (Board: 6d, Qd, Js, 5c, 5d): Sleekshot shows: 4d, 7d (flush to the Queen) Mainpot: Sleekshot wins the pot of 4210 with flush to the Queen (0.00 rake were taken for this hand) _______________________________________________________________ Hand #416031505 at table: Champs League-Rnd6 Started: Thu Sep 14 21:39:00 2006 pocket7s is at seat 1 with 3130.00 SSpiersey is at seat 2 with 2625.00 =BigAndy= is at seat 3 with 12755.00 millbet is at seat 4 with 3440.00 teaulc is at seat 5 with 1600.00 diliger21 is at seat 6 with 660.00 BurnJoe is at seat 7 with 1990.00 Penelopeys is at seat 8 with 2190.00 Sleekshot is at seat 9 with 2255.00 Griff505 is at seat 10 with 320.00 Griff505 posts the large blind 400.00 Sleekshot posts the small blind 200.00 Sleekshot: --, -- Griff505: --, -- pocket7s: --, -- SSpiersey: --, -- =BigAndy=: --, -- millbet: --, -- teaulc: Ks, Kd diliger21: --, -- BurnJoe: --, -- Penelopeys: --, -- Pre-flop: pocket7s: Fold SSpiersey: Fold =BigAndy=: Fold millbet: Fold teaulc: All in diliger21: Fold BurnJoe: Fold Penelopeys: Fold Sleekshot: Fold Griff505: All in Showdown: teaulc shows: Ks, Kd (a pair of Kings) Flop (Board: Qc, 2d, 4c): Turn (Board: Qc, 2d, 4c, 7d): River (Board: Qc, 2d, 4c, 7d, Jh): Griff505 shows: 4h, 7c (two pair, Sevens and Fours) Mainpot: Griff505 wins the pot of 1640 with two pair, Sevens and Fours (0.00 rake were taken for this hand) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League posted for teaulc......how can u call with 74:wall Actually, neither call looks stupid to me, given the chip position. Hodgey had pot odds to call on the first hand, and although Griff505 didn't on the second, he didn't know teaulc had KK and would certainly want to call if he'd been against a slightly worse hand like AK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgey Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League Only just seen this. posted for teaulc......how can u call with 74:wall Easily given chip stacks, and the time in the game. We're about 4 off the bubble and he's shoving which tells me he ain't got anything decent and although I'm probably behind I don't think I'm that far behind and I definitely have pot odds to call. Besides, Q7o is hardly a monster is it so the "ffs" from teaulc was totally unjustified IMO. Hodgey had pot odds to call on the first hand, Couldn't agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League AND... it is ONLY poker... :loon We are all great, funny, fantastic people with a long life ahead of us :nana :nana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League Only just seen this. Easily given chip stacks, and the time in the game. We're about 4 off the bubble and he's shoving which tells me he ain't got anything decent and although I'm probably behind I don't think I'm that far behind and I definitely have pot odds to call. Besides, Q7o is hardly a monster is it so the "ffs" from teaulc was totally unjustified IMO. Couldn't agree more. first off, it was me who took over from Teaulc as his pc buggered up mid game......and the ffs wasnt directed at yourself, but for the cards on the board....hence why i never commented on it afterwards at the table, it was simply cos twice in 8 hands id been done with 74, when preflop i had the better hand.......so Teaulc has no responsibility here for the ffs, and if i offended anyone then i appologise, it certainly wasn't meant for you.:ok Regarding pot odds.........i understand the maths of it all, i just cant understand the sense, to make a call of around 1500 chips(3/4 of your stack) with 74o or 74suited is just beyond what i would call a good play. Yes you may be getting 2/3-1 for the call, but that cant justify calling with cards you would dispose of 99% of the time. IMO But......like i said earlier....Teaulc had nothing to do with it, it was me and if i offended with the FFS then i appologise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League Morl - if I were to offer you odds of 10-1 against you rolling a 6 on a Die, would you take the bet? You would be mad to say no, however 5 times out of 6 you will lose!!! Calling with hands that are behind in poker but where you have Pot Odds is exactly the same :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League Morl - if I were to offer you odds of 10-1 against you rolling a 6 on a Die' date=' would you take the bet? You would be mad to say no, however 5 times out of 6 you will lose!!! Calling with hands that are behind in poker but where you have Pot Odds is exactly the same :ok[/quote'] yes....for 10-1 i would of course, baring in mind that anything over 5-1 is value.......however.....pokers meant to be a game of skill, or so i thought, or are you all in agreement with the government that its a game of chance? now answer the question yourself....but for odds of 2-1 instead:ok i feel a poll coming on.......would you call an all in for 3/4 of your chip stack with 74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League yes....for 10-1 i would of course, baring in mind that anything over 5-1 is value.......however.....pokers meant to be a game of skill, or so i thought, or are you all in agreement with the government that its a game of chance? now answer the question yourself....but for odds of 2-1 instead:ok i feel a poll coming on.......would you call an all in for 3/4 of your chip stack with 74 For me, the main skill in poker is in getting your money in when the pot is offering you better odds than the chance of it coming in, OR by offering your opponents inferior odds to what chance they will have ...... It's easy with a die - if you're offered 10-1 you take it, if you're offered 2-1 you reject it - Poker is exactly the same, except not everything is known (your opponents cards) - your skill in "reading" what your opponent has and controlling or responding to the pot odds is what will usually make the difference between a winner and a loser...... "Would you call for 3/4 of your stack with 74?" Well you don't mention the pot odds on offer - if you have 20-1, just one opponent (who is all in) and you are last to act, then yes, every time without hesitation :ok If it is against multiple opponents, showing strength (raising, reraising...) and odds of 2-1 are on offer - never!!! It depends on the odds the pot is offering you against the chance you perceive of your cards standing up (the ONLY way you can win if you are calling all in) - and 74 pre flop can win against ANY 2 cards, so it really is just a question of the odds on offer :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League For me, the main skill in poker is in getting your money in when the pot is offering you better odds than the chance of it coming in, OR by offering your opponents inferior odds to what chance they will have ...... It's easy with a die - if you're offered 10-1 you take it, if you're offered 2-1 you reject it - Poker is exactly the same, except not everything is known (your opponents cards) - your skill in "reading" what your opponent has and controlling or responding to the pot odds is what will usually make the difference between a winner and a loser...... "Would you call for 3/4 of your stack with 74?" Well you don't mention the pot odds on offer - if you have 20-1, just one opponent (who is all in) and you are last to act, then yes, every time without hesitation :ok If it is against multiple opponents, showing strength (raising, reraising...) and odds of 2-1 are on offer - never!!! It depends on the odds the pot is offering you against the chance you perceive of your cards standing up (the ONLY way you can win if you are calling all in) - and 74 pre flop can win against ANY 2 cards, so it really is just a question of the odds on offer :ok so what were the odds on offer in this particular hand then? call an all in with 74 to not even win double your stack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League I haven't looked at this specific hand - was responding to your comment "Regarding pot odds.........i understand the maths of it all, i just cant understand the sense, to make a call of around 1500 chips(3/4 of your stack) with 74o or 74suited is just beyond what i would call a good play. " I was trying to illustrate that Pot Odds are all important and it CAN be correct to call an all in with 74 for 3/4 of your stack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League I was trying to illustrate that Pot Odds are all important and it CAN be correct to call an all in with 74 for 3/4 of your stack then maybe we've found the reason why you aint been BPP for many days:moon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League then maybe we've found the reason why you aint been BPP for many days:moon Could be worse - I could be 20th :moon :moon (I know I know - you dont care any more - too much pressure :tongue2 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League Could be worse - I could be 20th :moon :moon (I know I know - you dont care any more - too much pressure :tongue2 ) also cos we play silly freerolls and against players who think its a good call to call with 74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League This is exactly why talk of 'pot odds' in tournament poker is a flawed concept. If this is on a cash table where the blinds don't increase and there are no 'eliminations' then I would accept the argument about having the right odds. However if you are playing in a tournament basically you are risking your whole tournament on making this play, and even if I was getting the right odds unless my tournament was in dire straights and I had no option but to call. Even then I would rather wait. This isn't a criticism of Hodgey's play at all, but this constant justification by quoting 'pot odds' is fundamentally wrong. Speaking personally, I think that pot odds is the worst thing I have ever come across in tournament poker. I lost yesterday with QQ and I was happy to 'accept' the result because I was up against AA, and AKs, and AKos. I was 'happy' because I would do exactly the same again, and I can feel satisfied that I went out playing as good a hand as I could. I was also the first one all in, and I admit I would have struggled to have folded it, but having already folded KK in the same tourney I may have. Gaf? has a low tolerance of 'bad beats'. I feel exactly the same way about pot odds in tournament poker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League Gaf? has a low tolerance of 'bad beats'. I feel exactly the same way about pot odds in tournament poker. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League I think there is some truth in what Mr. V says. (You can probably detect the implicit "but" in that sentence. :D) Because of the phenomenon that the more chips you have in a tournament, the less each additional chip is worth (see other threads), having 10,000 chips is worth less than twice as much as having 5,000 chips, so if you are risking all your 5,000 chips to win 5,000, you should have better than the 50% chance that "raw pot odds" would require. How much better, who knows? But if you blindly refuse to "risk your whole tournament" whenever you think you're an underdog, unless you are in really dire straits, then in my opinion you are just putting off the inevitable. If you are getting good enough pot odds (and I don't pretend to know how good that is), then it is clearly better to risk all your chips as a 2-1 underdog than to fold just to make sure you don't get eliminated now. If you don't build your stack, then you're quickly going to come across a situation where you have to "risk your whole tournament". And the only way to build your stack is to risk chips. And if you risk your chips, then you're "risking your whole tournament", because it's only your chips that are keeping you in the tournament. The only way to avoid "risking your whole tournament" is not to enter the tournament in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League :( if it had been a hungarian in the safety net calling with those cards im sure you all would have slated him seems to me that we use the pot odds excuse a lot to jusify our own PL'ers bad calls far too often on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League :( if it had been a hungarian in the safety net calling with those cards im sure you all would have slated him seems to me that we use the pot odds excuse a lot to jusify our own PL'ers bad calls far too often on here Sorry Morls, that's nonsense! If it had been a Hungarian I would have defended the call just the same. I don't know if Hodgey's call was right or wrong. The pot odds were in his favour, slightly, but as I said, I'd want the pot odds to be more than slightly in my favour to make a call like this. But on the other hand, Hodgey was a bit unlucky to find himself dominated. If you'd had a 8 instead of a 7, the odds would have been more in his favour. It's a close call, in my opinion. But what is absolutely clear is that it was a reasonable decision to take, right or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League :( if it had been a hungarian in the safety net calling with those cards im sure you all would have slated him seems to me that we use the pot odds excuse a lot to jusify our own PL'ers bad calls far too often on here I actually think we are totally wrong and bang out of order to continually slate plays here - whether Hungarian or PL - hole cards are your own and they "belong" to you - you do with them as you wish and using whatever logic (or lack of) you chose - that's the right you earnt when you bought in/enteresd the freeroll!!!! It's interesting how frequently someone starts off along the lines of "look what this muppet played", but when it's delved into, then there is a reason for the play that maybe the original poster didn't consider .... the reasons may be flawed/incorrect, but in the minds of the player, they were solid (or they wouldn't have done it) - you may be a better player than them and make better decisions, or you ("you" 2nd person plural, generic - noone in particular!!!) or you may be a worse player and not understand the real reasons they played the hand as they did (calling all in with 74 for example doesn't in my view automatically make someone a muppet). Either way, if poker were simple enough that everyone played perfectly, then it WOULD be a game of chance and there would be no skill involved...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted September 15, 2006 Author Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League Any chance of this being moved to a new thread? I dont wanna ruin Avongirls work by turning her thread into a debate over pot odds Also.....im in no way calling Hodgey a muppet, i just cant understand the play, call me bitter if you like, call me a bad loser, call me what you want, but i just cant understand ever calling someones all in with 74 for 3/4 of my stack I was slated for my play months back when i had A8o and did it with 3 other all ins after raise. re raise and all in, yet wasnt that good pot odds then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League Yeah - I'll Budge it (was thinking the same) EDIT Unless someone beats me to it :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: September SportingOdds Champions League Just did :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: Pot Odds or Not? A Debate By the way, Hodgey's call was for less than half his stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaulc Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: Pot Odds or Not? A Debate okay,it seems a hornets nest has been stirred here,,can i just say i agree totally with morls and if i was playing that hand and got f**ked like that i would have said the same thing ,,,the ffs wouldnt have been pointed at anyone but at the cards themselves,,as for the cards, not knowing how the table was playing i cant say too much but if i was called with 7/4 and got beat that would have wrankled big time,,,,,,,i would not expect anyone to call it whether the odds were good or not, to me morls did the right thing, even if the hand was not exactly the best,and like the inter-forum match last weekend you expect a better class of play,which as it turned out was just like the normal hungarian freeroll.. now i dont expect everyone to agree with everyone else,it would be a boring world otherwise,but to ( imo ) slate morls off for having a moan maybe some of the people on this forum should have a good look at themselves...... sorry but i tend to stray a bit but i dont talk or type much but IMO that call was VERY bad and didnt deserve rightly or wrongly to take someone out whether it was me or anyone else on this forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laidbackbloke Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: Pot Odds or Not? A Debate crunch crunch :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: Pot Odds or Not? A Debate crunch crunch :):rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin I just saw that being chucked into your perma-grin you git! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaulc Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: Pot Odds or Not? A Debate crunch crunch :) lol neil,we can expect to here from you next week then?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: Pot Odds or Not? A Debate now i dont expect everyone to agree with everyone else,it would be a boring world otherwise,but to ( imo ) slate morls off for having a moan maybe some of the people on this forum should have a good look at themselves...... How do you feel about people slating Hodgey's play, teaulc? We've disagreed with him, but nobody's been rude to Morls in this thread. But personally, I have to say I'm appalled by the disrespect that has been shown to Hodgey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: Pot Odds or Not? A Debate Have to confess I've just looked at the hand for the first time (I have got so bored of the "look what this muppet called with"/"How could I have played this better, calling 72o all in pre flop with my AA" threads, that I don't usually bother reading Hand Histories any more cos they're usually Bad Beats in "disguise"!!!) However, the SB raises all in when short stacked - it costs me 905 more to call and I'm getting 3-1!!! Where's the debate???? Surely you call with any 2 cards, without hesitation? I know I do EVERY TIME!!!! You KNOW the SB is pushing with any 2 there........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted September 15, 2006 Share Posted September 15, 2006 Re: Pot Odds or Not? A Debate lol neil' date='we can expect to here from you next week then??????[/quote']He started typing his reply last night! It'll be ready in time for Christmas. Apparently the BBC are considering broadcasting a transcript instead of the Queens speech. :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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