rebuy tourneys any thoughts

[fenner]

does anybody enjoy playing rebuy tourneys as Im currently playing titans 9k guaranteed $10 buy in with rebuys every hand for the 1st 1/2 hour you couldnt get to see the flop without going all in with sometimes up to 6 out of the 10 all calling an all in with any 2 cards that were suited, or connected or any pair or an ace with any kicker then all just rebuying 1 person rebought 8 times before giving up with his only play being all in cant say Im enjoying it and wont be around long after the break as they have now dragged me down to their level and I will be going all in 1st decent hand . does anybody play many rebuy tourneys an why?

[fenner]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts there were 430 players with over 500 rebuys and Im sure there was alot like me who wouldnt rebuy

[Galronix]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts I was playing $1 rebuys on VC at the begining of the year on a sat morning. Same format, all in with any 2 cards but if you hung on till the add on, the pots were quite big. I used to set myself a limit of rebuys but most of the time it was a lottery. I got to the top 20 once without a single rebuy or an add on. GL mate :ok

[guesswest]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts I love rebuy tournaments, but I play them as freezeouts - I think that's a hugely neglected strategy by tournament players. Yes your chances of winning without rebuying in a rebuy are lower than your chances of winning an equivalently priced freeze-out. But your chances aren't PROPORTIONALLY lower when you factor in the prize fund vs entrants. The difference is simply that you can capitalise on loose play in a rebuy because your opponents are willing to rebuy, and I think it's possible to pick up bags of equity because of this. Your variance will shoot through the roof playing rebuys as freezeouts vs just playing freezeouts, but I'm pretty convinced there's much greater expectation there.

[slapdash]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts

I love rebuy tournaments, but I play them as freezeouts - I think that's a hugely neglected strategy by tournament players. Yes your chances of winning without rebuying in a rebuy are lower than your chances of winning an equivalently priced freeze-out. But your chances aren't PROPORTIONALLY lower when you factor in the prize fund vs entrants. The difference is simply that you can capitalise on loose play in a rebuy because your opponents are willing to rebuy, and I think it's possible to pick up bags of equity because of this. Your variance will shoot through the roof playing rebuys as freezeouts vs just playing freezeouts, but I'm pretty convinced there's much greater expectation there.

Yes, that sounds logical to me. Though I don't think I've ever made the money in a rebuy (not that I play a lot of them), so I suspect the variance of this strategy is pretty enormous. By the way, this doesn't contradict the received wisdom that it's usually right to rebuy if you do lose your chips.

[guesswest]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts

By the way' date=' this doesn't contradict the received wisdom that it's usually right to rebuy if you [b']do lose your chips.

I was meaning to contradict that. :D I think that's actually where the equity comes from, chip value decreases as the tourney goes on and so you're overpaying for rebuys. I'll only rebuy during the first level.

[Jaded]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts My strategy is simple (bit like all of my play!) Unless I get AA or KK first few hands, fold everything til I get my blinds. Check/fold, and rebuy after my first blind, giving me just under twice starting chips. Play the hell out of AA/KK/AK/QQ until rebuy period finishes, as it's easy enough to get action from the majority of people who'll rebuy 23 times or whatever. Add-on if it'll increase my stack by more than 20%. Then play my usual game and crash out within 5 minutes of the freezeout period :rollin

[Valiant23]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts I have played the odd rebuy tourney online, and more than a few in the local casino. My strategy is pretty much as Guesswest says, in that I play it like a freezout. In fact I find rebuys good in that you are much more careful with your hand selection. I will rebuy (once) in the casino if I lose with A's, K's or Q's. Obviously I'll play out of my blinds as well, but basically its all about survival until the rebuy period is over. I know that online players here despise them (as a rule), but I think if any hope to make the transition into their local casino an acceptance of them is essential.

[Galronix]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts I think it can be very good practice if you want to try playing very tight.

[msaban]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts

I have played the odd rebuy tourney online, and more than a few in the local casino. My strategy is pretty much as Guesswest says, in that I play it like a freezout. In fact I find rebuys good in that you are much more careful with your hand selection. I will rebuy (once) in the casino if I lose with A's, K's or Q's. Obviously I'll play out of my blinds as well, but basically its all about survival until the rebuy period is over. I know that online players here despise them (as a rule), but I think if any hope to make the transition into their local casino an acceptance of them is essential.

agree with most of that, have played a lot of live pot limit rebuy, where to be honest I havent been able to compete with the bankroll of a lot of my competers,my limit is nothing to these guys, however have been very succesfull with just playing tight and putting chips in with the best hand during rebuy perod.I think I won about £4K in 8 vsits to a local casino, earlier in the year. Online, my first milestone is to try and make the end of the rebuy period with my initial stake and generally wont rebuy unless I feel Ive been unlucky or close to the end of this period. Ive played in tourneys where people have said " shall we go into the $5 rebuy with $200 for a laugh", to me if I win $200 I see that as an achievement and wouldnt waste it like that, however once again it comes down to bankroll, whatever is significant to me, may be peanuts for somebody else and this is the attitude your generally competing aginst, people think nothing of calling a raise with dirt in the hope fo doubling up.

[lou saban]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts i have only played a few rebuys online and live and to be honest , if my first experience of poker was a live rebuy then i would have probably never played poker again. i have played 2 rebuy tourneys at owlerton sheffield and found that no matter how tight i tried to play for the first hour and a half i was still guaranteed at least 5 callers or all ins and aa kk qq and other good hands were losing out 74o and other dire hands. its was a nightmare trying to compete with guys who have £600 in their pockets for a £10 rebuy.

[glceud]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts One thing I would add about rebuy tournements is take into account how many rebuys there have been at your table if it has not been split up. If there is a lot of chips at the table then continuing to rebuy is the definate correct procedure. I played in one at prima and after the first hour 8 of the top 11 stacks were at my table because of the ammont of rebuys. On the other hand if after 45 minutes there have been no rebuys at your table it's a waste of time rebuying because the chips just arent there to be won. Funnily enough the guy who made half the rebuys had won a similer tourney an hour earlier and when I checked later he had ended up second in the one I was in , so there must be some method in the madness. Bet and game have an interesting rebuy tourney thats 25 cents to enter and you can rebuy as often as you want for 25 cents no matter what your stack is. So $25 gives you 100,000 chips and an instant chip lead. If any one can work out how to play that tourney let me know!

[GaF]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts I'm just playing a $22 Monster Rebuy on Party and I have NEVER played anything like this - I cannot believe for one second that my opponents play can be profitable for them........ so it's great!!! All rebuys I've played before have been reasonably tight till the last 5 mins of the rebuy period, when it's gone manic as people try to build a stack. Not so here - starting blinds of 20/40 and starting stacks of 3000 - it has been rebuy mania from hand 1 :loon We're now 21 minutes in, the 34 entrants have fallen to 31 and there have been 28 rebuys!!!! My "strategy" at the moment is to call with any 2 cards pre flop in late position with an unraised pot - due to the massive implied odds if I do hit..... Other than that I won't get involved with anything but premium hands..... My 3000 stack has grown slightly to 3370, but with rebuys now at 32, the average stack is now 6800 :loon :loon(29 players left)........

[Burnley Joe]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts How you gettin on GAF?

[GaF]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts

How you gettin on GAF?

I ended up out in about 20th..... Got up to about 4500 chips - 1 min before the end of the rebuy period, had kx soooted on SB - limped in - hit 2 of my suit on a 9 high flop - 1 opponent - I bet, he reraised all in - I figured he'd paired something on the flop, but didn't know what. Thought my flush draw was good, and my overcard, so decided I had the odds to dance - he turned over top pair low kicker - so my read was right ............. I didn't hit one of my outs and his hand held up ....... I SHOULD have sat tight, even if I had the odds, I didn't need to dance!!!! I rebought - for 3000 chips, with the average of 11,000, so probably a bad move, so near the end of the rebuy period (though the add on was a real leveller - 4500 chips). Everyone folded round to me with A9s on the button - I went all in - actually hoping for a call from a worse hand :loon :unsure and got a call (can't remember what it was - or even if it was better or worse!!!) and got beat - I couldn't bear to rebuy 3 times in 3 hands, so called it a day at that point....... Happy to hear your thought and what I could/should have done differently (and why!!) cos I sure didn't deal with the rebuys correctly at the end!!!

[Burnley Joe]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts I think that you did the right think with regard to rebuying just before the break. I think you got unlucky with the caller if you were on the button, but then i guess they thought the same thing about trying to get chips before the break. I would have done exactly the same and quit, as you would be chasing if you did a rebuy again as the chances are that they would rebuy as well

[GaF]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts

I think that you did the right think with regard to rebuying just before the break. I think you got unlucky with the caller if you were on the button, but then i guess they thought the same thing about trying to get chips before the break. I would have done exactly the same and quit, as you would be chasing if you did a rebuy again as the chances are that they would rebuy as well

Surely if my expectation from the first rebuy made that a correct decision, then my expectation from another rebuy would also have been positive? The situation between the first rebuy and the second rebuy hadn't changed enough that they can both have been correct decisions.....either in rebuying the first time, or not rebuying the second time, I'm CERTAIN I made a mistake in one of my decisions.... IIRC the average stack was about 11,000 , but there were also stacks of 30-40,000!!!. If I rebought and then added on, I would have expected to be on 7,500 ish - the average would probably have been about 14,000. There were 20 players left - looking back at the lobby now - after all buy ins and addons, the prize pool was $1806 distributed amongst top 6 ($672, $414, $248, $182, $132, $115) I REALLY don't know whether the rebuy was worth it or not!!!!

[Rookie]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts I played a couple of Re-buy tournaments and i don't like them very much. Its even worse at Party-Poker, because they can rebuy if they put all thier chips in the middle of the table, software glitch or something.... I will never Re-buy, if i lose all my chips i'll just save the money to start a new tournament, But i will Add-On if i Feel im in good position and Contending for final table.

[GaF]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts

But i will Add-On if i Feel im in good position and Contending for final table.

Specifically to NL Holdem - The more chips you have, the less value there are to incremental chips ..... If I am doing well, then I feel I am probably overcharged for an add on. Similarly, if I am doing very badly, then an add on probably won't realise the value of the chips often enough - I'm only tempted to add on really if I'm between these two extremes ...... Not very experienced with add ons though, so more than happy to listen to counter arguments :ok

[slapdash]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts

Specifically to NL Holdem - The more chips you have' date=' the less value there are to incremental chips .....[/quote'] I don't think there's anything specific to NL Holdem about that. The argument (Mason Malmuth's, I think) is that it's a feature of tournaments that are not winner-takes-all. [imagine a 100 player tournament with a $1000 prize pool, where first prize is $300. A typical player starting with 1% of the chips would expect to win 1% of the prize pool, $10, on average. But if he instead had 95%, or 100%, of the chips, he wouldn't expect to win 95% or 100% of the prize pool, because the most he can win is first prize. So those 95%, or 100%, of the chips are worth at most 30 times as much as the first 1%, not 95 or 100 times as much. This doesn't prove that as you gradually increase the chip percentage from 1% to 95%, the incremental value of each additional chip gradually decreases, but it seems a reasonable assumption.]

[GaF]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts Taking what you've said a step further slapdash - whilst the proportion of chips you have cannot be the proportion of the prize fund you win, Sklansky argues in "Tournament Poker for Advanced Players" that "It is a common conception that your chances of winning a tournament against equally skilled players are equivalent to the fraction of the total tournament chips that you hold (in your stack). Thus if you own 15 percent of the chips, your chances of winning are 15 per cent. This happens to be right, even if most people don't know why. Assuming everybody is equally skilled and is playing similar strategies, the chance of each player coming in first is precisely in proportion to the size of their stacks. .... " If this is true, then it runs counter to the argument that incremental chips are more valuable to shorter stacks than larger stacks i.e. he argues that the marginal value of a chip is always equal, regardless of the size of your stack. My gut feel is that this cannot be right, but I haven't fully thought it through and considered it yet ...... and I'm sure sklansky is far more knowledgable than me, so I won't dismiss his ideas (just yet :P)

[slapdash]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts No, Sklansky is talking about your probability of winning, not your expected prize money. In fact, I think he makes that distinction in the book. Whether he's right that your chance of winning is proportional to your chip stack, I don't know ... but I wish I did! If you're heads up and the blinds are so large that somebody is automatically going to be all-in every hand, then it is exactly true. Sklansky gives two arguments in his book, one of which is more or less an argument that it's true if somebody's all-in every hand, and the other of which is complete nonsense, as far as I can make out.

[guesswest]

Re: rebuy tourneys any thoughts DS is not so much wrong here as totally irrelevant, I think like the lot of the book he's just filling space. It only applies, as slap mentions, if every player is all-in every hand. It ignores the fact that you have a vastly different range of options in terms of how you play your stack with different stack sizes. I suspect he is aware of this flaw with his 'similar strategies' disclaimer, but doesn't expand on that to concede how very rare identical strategies would be here, and how largely useless that analysis is to tournament play as a result.