APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...)

[Jaded]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...)

What happens if you cant? Sod ya? tough luck? Id sooner take my chances in a random draw than a fastest finger 1st competition

Morl, Sharpey's suggesting a freeroll where the top 120 get the chance to go to the live final, not a fastest finger first type thing.

[morlspin]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...)

Oh and I do think my idea is best Have an online password protected freeroll tourny for all apat members on pokerstars and when the field hits 120 invite these players to play at the card club.

I see that now.....but when you 1st read it, it made me think that when you get 120 in they qualify, not down to 120 in the freeroll

[Sharpe1ne]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...)

I see that now.....but when you 1st read it' date=' it made me think that when you get 120 in they qualify, not down to 120 in the freeroll[/quote'] It's ok fella ,I appreciate you come from Newcastle:lol :lol

[morlspin]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...)

It's ok fella ' date='I appreciate you come from Newcastle:lol :lol[/quote'] ;) its not me who cant write clear posts mate!

[DesD]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...)

"Pot Kettle and Black come to mind." Why? I don't like the APAT because of stuff like this - the definition of an amateur player as stated on their front page: "For the avoidance of doubt, Membership of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour is NOT available to any individual who earns his or her SOLE income by playing poker" This basically means that anyone can play, since very few pros earn their sole income from actually playing poker. Secondly - what's the membership fees all about? That's what tourney fees are for, right? The "benefits" listed for members include... "Members will benefit from improvements in organisation, public image and the value of sponsorship brought to the game by the APAT." - They're going to improve my image? How can my fees improve the value of sponsorship? If we don't pay the fees, the tournaments will be badly organised? Come on.. "Members can participate in an exclusive and high profile series of live and online APAT tournaments, with a considerable added value prize pool, and guaranteed media coverage" - But I can do this all over the place, in various tourneys without having to pay membership to some club. "Successful Members will receive expenses paid entries to European Poker Tour, World Poker Tour and World Series Of Poker main events, which will offer a tremendous learning experience" - Nothing to do with membership fees, these are prizes that you win. "Members can keep up to date with Association news and detailed Tour reports in each new issue of PokerPlayer magazine, with a subscription offer of 13 issues for £5" - Again, this isn't a benefit of my membership.. if they were free, then it would be. The only REAL benefit I can see, is being on the board and having a say on the running of the APAT. But since only 3 people will be elected to do so, there's very little chance of an unknown player having this position. Until someone can provide me with concrete benefits or reasons for having to pay membership, I see it as a money grabbing manouver, without foundation. They're trying to cover their costs from our pockets, and I don't like it. Thirdly - are they a union body, or a tour operator? The website suggests that their main functionality is running tournaments (which is great, it's always nice to have more live games in the UK), but at the same time they bandy around stuff about trying to get into the Olympics. It's great in theory, but it would be nice to see some concrete evidence of where membership fees are going, and what they're actually achieving politically (with all the lobbying they're talking about). I'm just not convinced, that's all, but then I have always been very skeptical. I will keep my big mouth shut, but my eyes and ears wide open.

Hi Barney, I know I'm not going to win you over, but I will try to answer your questions where possible. I've put your questions in bold as I'm not a quote on / off whizz. I didn't even know what phishing was....... This basically means that anyone can play, since very few pros earn their sole income from actually playing poker. I have answered the professional question in my response to Jaded above. Let me kow if you want to discuss further. Secondly - what's the membership fees all about? That's what tourney fees are for, right? All tournament fees will be paid out in prize money on the day of the tournament. If you pay us £75.00, then the Association does not see a penny of that. In reality the membership fees cover a small percentage of the costs of running the APAT. For example:- To design, setup and maintain the website cost a couple of thousand pounds. The domain name APAT.com cost a small fortune. A necessary spend though because we want want our marketing to be effective. Database software - hundreds. Logo design - hundreds. To view venues around the UK to assess their suitability to run our tournaments. To bring 4 APAT organisers to several events, travel and accomodation. And don't start talking about booze bills and the like because APAT is not paying for any of that stuff. Advertising and promotion of the Association. And I could go on and on. The average membership fee is around £6 due to the PokerPlayer offer. If we secure 2,000 members then we will do very well to break even as an Association in year one. The membership fee reduces to £5 in year two in recognition that the setup costs will have disappeared. I might be wrong but I do not think it is unrealistic to charge a membership fee for the level of service we want to lay on for our members. I know I could not afford to fund it personally. But I am willing to give a huge percentage of my time, as are my colleagues, to deliver something that has not been successfully done before. "Members will benefit from improvements in organisation, public image and the value of sponsorship brought to the game by the APAT." - They're going to improve my image? How can my fees improve the value of sponsorship? If we don't pay the fees, the tournaments will be badly organised? Come on.. Image: There are thousands and thousands of players who would like to play the game in a live environment but cannot because their partner has the view that the roof over their heads will be lost. We want to correct their view of tournament poker and bring these players into the game. Please bear in mind that 1.2m poker related gift were sold in retail last christmas. There are not 1.2m players in the UK. Value of Sponsorship: The larger our Association is, the stronger our hand will be to sit down with the GC and the corporate gaming companies to negotiate rules, structures and added value for our members. At the moment this is a vision, but unless someone goes after it aggressively then it will not happen. Your membership fees enable us to put on the most professional face possible when sitting with these incredibly wealthy companies. Tournaments badly organised: Certainly if we cannot send our people to the events, then they will be organised as they currently are. APAT events will start on time. There will be one understood set of rules, players will be treated with a great deal of respect and gain from the additional value that we will negotiate on their behalf. If you are happy with the way your tournaments are currently run then I will accept that you do not need the APAT. However, if you are not, then you will not be able to change things on your own. Members can participate in an exclusive and high profile series of live and online APAT tournaments, with a considerable added value prize pool, and guaranteed media coverage" - But I can do this all over the place, in various tourneys without having to pay membership to some club. Will you pay a registration fee to the Casino? Will you play the same rules at every event. Will the level of added value be equal to that of the APAT - for a £75 entry fee? Will you find your name in the press or on a plane to Barcelona or Vegas if you win? For £75? "Successful Members will receive expenses paid entries to European Poker Tour, World Poker Tour and World Series Of Poker main events, which will offer a tremendous learning experience" - Nothing to do with membership fees, these are prizes that you win. This support was offered by PokerStars because of the level of professionalism that we brought in our negotiations. APAT is on the home page of PokerStars.com, and we have our own informtion page on their website. The largest tournament site in the world. Look at the only other people they talk about worldwide! Their own tournaments, a relationship with some motor racing team and APAT. You can even link to us directly from their client. We achieved that without a single member. Just think what we could achieve with 5,000 or 50,000? Could we send 50 or 100 people off to play the Caribbean WPT event? Why not. "Members can keep up to date with Association news and detailed Tour reports in each new issue of PokerPlayer magazine, with a subscription offer of 13 issues for £5" - Again, this isn't a benefit of my membership.. if they were free, then it would be. They sell for £1.50 per issue and each issue will contain news and tournament reports on all APAT events. Look out for the interview and picture of Purr of Aces in the November issue. The only REAL benefit I can see, is being on the board and having a say on the running of the APAT. But since only 3 people will be elected to do so, there's very little chance of an unknown player having this position. I am an unknown. The three members selected will also be unknown. Being known has very little to do with it. Having the drive and ambition to deliver for our members is what we are looking for. Until someone can provide me with concrete benefits or reasons for having to pay membership, I see it as a money grabbing manouver, without foundation. They're trying to cover their costs from our pockets, and I don't like it. Our costs? These are our members costs. If I used my evenings as I used to then I would not generate any of these costs. I can assure you once again that there will be no jolly's on the APAT. Everybody involved works very hard, and of course as 'luck' would have it, we have banned ourselves from the tournaments! Thirdly - are they a union body, or a tour operator? The website suggests that their main functionality is running tournaments (which is great, it's always nice to have more live games in the UK), but at the same time they bandy around stuff about trying to get into the Olympics. It's great in theory, but it would be nice to see some concrete evidence of where membership fees are going, and what they're actually achieving politically (with all the lobbying they're talking about). The APAT is both. Amateur Poker Association & Tour. We will only achieve politically when we have the support of a large and rowdy membership behind us. We have been in operation under a month and we are still spending lots of time finding our position on certain issues in consultation with a wide number of forums, and tidying up the occasional hurtful quote here or there. I can tell you are rowdy Barney ;0) now lets have you as a member! I'm just not convinced, that's all, but then I have always been very skeptical. I will keep my big mouth shut, but my eyes and ears wide open. Above all else don't keep your mouth shut. We will only improve with feedback and if we can convince you to join then somewhere along the line 100 others will have joined up also. We do value all feedback - providing it is fair. Apologies for the length of the post. Regards, Des.

[Sharpe1ne]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...)

;) its not me who cant write clear posts mate!

:rollin :rollin Try post 34 mate it's a bit clearer in there.

[PokerBarney]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...) Des, I appreciate the time you took to write that, thanks. Unfortunately for you, I would like to discuss it further :) "He clearly should be labelled a professional but it will be difficult for the APAT to police him, and in this grey area, players will need to use their own judgement and honesty as to whether they are professional or not." So basically you're not going to police this rule, seeing as it's pretty much impossible unless you physically recognise someone. You mentioned that membership fees cover running costs - that's what I expected, but no other poker operator does that! Everything you listed applies to other sites like PokerStars, yet they don't charge a membership fee. I know you're not charging tourney fees for the first tourney, but you will for the rest, correct? (Oh, and you shouldn't be paying for database software. Use MySQL, it's free. Secondly, since when did .com names cost a fortune? You could've bought that name for £20 for 2 years.) "All tournament fees will be paid out in prize money on the day of the tournament. If you pay us £75.00, then the Association does not see a penny of that." Yep. The £75 is a buy in. The "+blah blah" bit (eg, $1+$0.20) is the fee, and I see you're not charging for the first tourney. I wouldn't expect the APAT to see any of the £75. "We want to correct their view of tournament poker and bring these players into the game" This is a commendable vision, but I can't see how you (a tour operator) can persuade my girlfriend that poker won't take all my money, especially seeing as you charge extra fees. "The larger our Association is, the stronger our hand will be to sit down with the GC and the corporate gaming companies to negotiate rules, structures and added value for our members." I will accept that this is a benefit of being a member, but not that it justifies the membership fee. "Will you pay a registration fee to the Casino? Will you play the same rules at every event. Will the level of added value be equal to that of the APAT - for a £75 entry fee? Will you find your name in the press or on a plane to Barcelona or Vegas if you win? For £75?" But the added value comes from sponsorship doesn't it? It doesn't cost you anything to provide... so while it's a benefit, it STILL doesn't justify the cost. Oh, and I would'nt have to pay casino reg fees for the WSOP, WPT, EPT etc (AFAIK). "Our costs? These are our members costs." You said above that they were YOUR costs (running the website etc). Costs that every other poker operator incurs. "I can tell you are rowdy Barney ;0) now lets have you as a member!" I can be a bit yes. I'm not coughing up until I can see why I should. So far, you've just told me that I'm paying for the website and the company running costs. I suppose it comes down to this: you can either charge tourney fees, OR a membership fee, not both. Or, get a bank to support you until advertising and other subsidiary revenues start rolling in. I understand that you need to acquire revenue from somewhere, but charging people twice for the same reason is not fair. No-one else does it!

[DesD]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...)

Des, I appreciate the time you took to write that, thanks. Unfortunately for you, I would like to discuss it further :) "He clearly should be labelled a professional but it will be difficult for the APAT to police him, and in this grey area, players will need to use their own judgement and honesty as to whether they are professional or not." So basically you're not going to police this rule, seeing as it's pretty much impossible unless you physically recognise someone. You mentioned that membership fees cover running costs - that's what I expected, but no other poker operator does that! Everything you listed applies to other sites like PokerStars, yet they don't charge a membership fee. I know you're not charging tourney fees for the first tourney, but you will for the rest, correct? (Oh, and you shouldn't be paying for database software. Use MySQL, it's free. Secondly, since when did .com names cost a fortune? You could've bought that name for £20 for 2 years.) "All tournament fees will be paid out in prize money on the day of the tournament. If you pay us £75.00, then the Association does not see a penny of that." Yep. The £75 is a buy in. The "+blah blah" bit (eg, $1+$0.20) is the fee, and I see you're not charging for the first tourney. I wouldn't expect the APAT to see any of the £75. "We want to correct their view of tournament poker and bring these players into the game" This is a commendable vision, but I can't see how you (a tour operator) can persuade my girlfriend that poker won't take all my money, especially seeing as you charge extra fees. "The larger our Association is, the stronger our hand will be to sit down with the GC and the corporate gaming companies to negotiate rules, structures and added value for our members." I will accept that this is a benefit of being a member, but not that it justifies the membership fee. "Will you pay a registration fee to the Casino? Will you play the same rules at every event. Will the level of added value be equal to that of the APAT - for a £75 entry fee? Will you find your name in the press or on a plane to Barcelona or Vegas if you win? For £75?" But the added value comes from sponsorship doesn't it? It doesn't cost you anything to provide... so while it's a benefit, it STILL doesn't justify the cost. Oh, and I would'nt have to pay casino reg fees for the WSOP, WPT, EPT etc (AFAIK). "Our costs? These are our members costs." You said above that they were YOUR costs (running the website etc). Costs that every other poker operator incurs. "I can tell you are rowdy Barney ;0) now lets have you as a member!" I can be a bit yes. I'm not coughing up until I can see why I should. So far, you've just told me that I'm paying for the website and the company running costs. I suppose it comes down to this: you can either charge tourney fees, OR a membership fee, not both. Or, get a bank to support you until advertising and other subsidiary revenues start rolling in. I understand that you need to acquire revenue from somewhere, but charging people twice for the same reason is not fair. No-one else does it!

Hi Barney. Unfortunate? - no....I could write about this subject all day...lol....but I suspect your fellow Punters would get bored pretty quickly. I'm going to keep this response pretty brief as I believe the crux of your concern is the membership fee. First of all, we are not a poker organisation like PokerStars. We do not earn a penny from any of the tournaments we run, either live or online. That answers one of your key questions. The APAT will not be charging a a registration fee for ANY of our live events. To answer another of your questions, yes you would pay a considerable registration fee to participate in a WSOP, WPT or EPT event. I believe the EPT charge is £50 at the Vic for the 2006 event, and 250 euro in Dublin. The APAT will charge a single low fee to cover membership of the Association and any event you may play in over the course of a year. You will not get raked in each new event as you would in the other tournaments mentioned above. Plus we will add close to $100k of added value to our prize pool. The EPT and WSOP do not add a tremendous amount over and above the buy in. Lucky amateurs eh! If that does not convince you then I don't think I will be able to (and I hate giving up!). If it does, then take the plunge and join in the fun in time for the Italian Open on Saturday evening. For $22 dollars you will get 5,000 chips, a shot at an APAT title and some serious medals, and ranking points which might see you on your way to the Caribbean. Cheers, Des.

[equinoxx]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...) I signed up yesterday. When will I get an email with the password for Saturday? Are the medals awarded for the internet events???

[DesD]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...)

I signed up yesterday. When will I get an email with the password for Saturday? Are the medals awarded for the internet events???

Hi Equinoxx, You will receive details of the Online Series and password this evening. Yes, we are awarding medals for the internet events also. Regards, Des.

[Burnley Joe]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...) Top 3 or does it go down to top six? LOL

[PokerBarney]

Re: APAT goes Pro ? Plus revised registration process for Birmingham Tourney...) "The APAT will not be charging a a registration fee for ANY of our live events." That's what I wanted to hear :). Most statements up until now gave the impression that only the first event would not charge reg fees, and all others would. I have no problem with you charging players these fees, but charging them twice (membership and tourney) would be scandalous. I'm pleased to see you're not trying to do that. Thanks for your efforts, you've swung me (a little bit ;)). I'm looking forward to seeing how successful you are at keeping pros out of the games, and the general feedback of the first live event. If all goes well.. I may even join in the fun :)