mikerowe Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Not necessarily looking for advice/comments here, just thought I would share :) At Sheffield Ecclesall Rd £20R Pot Limit (my 'home' game :D ) tonight. Bout 14 runners left, pay last ten, total prize pool around £4800. Ive got maybe 5500 chips(making me around 4th smallest stack), blinds have just gone up to 500-1000. In big blind, look down at AKs. Not a terrible hand by any means, but one caller raises pot, another reraises, action on me. To call would put me all in. What I *should* do is fold it away? At least one player would be out, I've got enough for another few orbits...:hope I don't. I push them all into the middle. 2 callers turn over TT and 88. Yup, my ace comes but so do two eights. Me and another player out - what's worse is at the same time another player goes out on the other table, leaving only 11 in. The bubble goes 2 hands later. Am I annoyed with myself? Yes - not for playing AKs but for not being completely aware of the chip levels, state of play on the other table. Tactics and awareness in short. Annoyingly 3 weeks ago came 3rd there for £750 after taking out the bubble with AKs :) Feh. Live and learn. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgej Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... Unlucky mate. Did the same last night on SO. AK is a good hand, but still only A high. We'll learn for next time :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... I don't think it was a bad decision to go all in with AK. You had around a 40% chance of taking the pot, which is better then the 33% you needed for good pot odds. Also, presuming the prize money was skewed so that there was more at the top end - it is better in tournies to play for 1st, rather than limp and just try and take the money. The only reason i wouldn't go all-in was if I thought I was genuinely a better player than the people I was playing against - and thought I could out-play them otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... And just re-read your thread - and saw you were in the big blind - and that makes the case for all-in much much stronger. Your pot odds are much larger than you need to go all-in - to me it's an all-in without a second thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... Your 6/7 handed with AKs and 5bb left, its a no brainer there imo. Worth a think due to the bet and raise but still gotta go with it on that stack, your probly gona coinflip there but absolutely no reason to think your up against AA or KK in which case you gamble there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... errr NO NO NO a pot raise followed by a reraise and you want to play AK? crikey JJ is definately being folded here, QQ probably, KK maybe, AA I am calling you are behind at this stage to most hands - forget the 5K you have left and the BB of 1K, save your chips for raising/reraising next hand (or the hand after) yes it might be a bubble resteal play, but it is not worth it to play, just fold and move on - this is a live tourny, generally people play tighter live than online (generally!!) Damo And just re-read your thread - and saw you were in the big blind - and that makes the case for all-in much much stronger. Your pot odds are much larger than you need to go all-in - to me it's an all-in without a second thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... coin flipping? you reckon? :lol Damo Your 6/7 handed with AKs and 5bb left' date=' its a no brainer there imo. Worth a think due to the bet and raise but still gotta go with it on that stack, your probly gona coinflip there but absolutely no reason to think your up against AA or KK in which case you gamble there.[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... I'm going to have to diasagree here Damo. He already got a 1000 chips in the middle - so going all-in he is commiting another 4500. So if the reraiser is the only one to call his all-in, there are at least 13000 chips in the middle (5500 mikes - 5500 caller - at least 2000 by the original raiser) - so he is getting pot odds of at least just under 2 to 1 with AK suited - which I would definitely be calling in a 7 handed game. Now presuming he gets both players all-in - he is once again committing 4500 chips - this time to win 16500. In the actual scenario he was around 40% chance, which fully justifies the all-in. Actually he would need a winning percentage of more than around 27% to justify the call. With AK suited, I would be playing this in a 7 handed game every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... why gamble when someone has said "I have a hand" and someone else says "NO I HAVE A HAND THAT BEATS YOURS" :) that just silly - you don't need to play your AK against either of them - forget what you win, you are not likely to win in this case - you would be better folding and playing any 2 next hand or the hand after by shoving to take the blinds you cannot take either of them off this hand by shoving - it is an easy call for both of them and AK is great HU when you are the aggressor, not when you are calling to 2 aggressors, this is the major difference in this particular hand - they are both calling the shove as they have great pot odds - you don't have great pot odds at all. and you can't use the fact that you know what the others have to justify the odds in calling - you should judge it purely on actions and not the actual cards people have, otherwise it is a result driven answer and not a strategy driven answer (this is why I think it is best to post it without cards because we can then discuss the what if's - just my personal preference) YMMV of course Damo I'm going to have to diasagree here Damo. He already got a 1000 chips in the middle - so going all-in he is commiting another 4500. So if the reraiser is the only one to call his all-in, there are at least 13000 chips in the middle (5500 mikes - 5500 caller - at least 2000 by the original raiser) - so he is getting pot odds of at least just under 2 to 1 with AK suited - which I would definitely be calling in a 7 handed game. Now presuming he gets both players all-in - he is once again committing 4500 chips - this time to win 16500. In the actual scenario he was around 40% favourite, which fully justifies the all-in. Actually he would need a winning percentage of more than around 27% to justify the call. With AK suited, I would be playing this in a 7 handed game every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... You haven't the "time" left in your stack to wait for AA or KK...... I'm all in here with AKs....... You try and limp into the last money place and you have very little chance of winning the tourney, which I'm assuming is the objective ....... HAVE to go with AKs...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaban Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... I'm torn two ways here, it depends on the people who are already in the pot, if their tight and only played premium hands, (I'm folding) or like to get involved in a lot of hands (then I'm all in) and of course their chip stacks. They will be renaming that 14th position after you at Eccy road soon, Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... and you can't use the fact that you know what the others have to justify the odds in calling - you should judge it purely on actions and not the actual cards people have' date=' otherwise it is a result driven answer and not a strategy driven answer [/quote'] Agree totally - the important thing is "Did I make the right decision?" not "Did I get the right result?" - we all know what Poker is like and that outdraws do happen - that doesn't make these decisions wrong...... However, knowing the cards - would you think the call is right? Risking $4500 to win $16,500 with a 40% shot - has to be a no brainer!!!!! You HAVE to call - it's your best value chance to increase your stack...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... ""HAVE to go with AKs......"" not against 2 people who have already raised and reraised you don't - they are calling you every day of the week - shoving AK against 2 limpers is the right play, but not calling. and why wait for AA or KK, you shove any 2 next hand if its folded to you in the SB - and shove any 2 the hand after after its folded to you on the button - they are positive plays that will win you chips - here you are just gambling and hoping to outdraw 2 players - that is poor tatical play - you have enough chips to do some damage next hand, but not this hand, fold it and move on Damo You haven't the "time" left in your stack to wait for AA or KK...... I'm all in here with AKs....... You try and limp into the last money place and you have very little chance of winning the tourney, which I'm assuming is the objective ....... HAVE to go with AKs...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... In the one caller scenario the pot odds would be justifed in calling every hand there is apart from AA and KK - hands like AQ or KQ or even AK (not suited) I would be favourite - and the coin flip scenario is to my advantage as the pot odds are just under 2 to 1. I would take my chances 7 handed in that scenario with those pot odds. The other scenario is easy in hindsight - as we know the cards - you're right. But with AK suited 7 handed once again, I personally would feel pretty confident that I had more than 27% chance of winning an all-in against two other players - 7 handed of course. I don't call this gambling - I would call it playing to gain a positive expectation - and I have already said that I wouldn't go all-in if I thought I was a better player than the rest of the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... no because that is result driven and not strategy driven I am not interested in what cards they have, but what the right play and I will stick to my original post that shoving (actually calling) is not the right move here against 2 opponents Damo However, knowing the cards - would you think the call is right? Risking $4500 to win $16,500 with a 40% shot - has to be a no brainer!!!!! You HAVE to call - it's your best value chance to increase your stack...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... One point nobody's mentioned yet against AK is that with three (good?) hands playing, then if two of them are interfering with each other, it's likely that one of them is yours. E.g., a fairly likely scenario is that the original better has a big ace and the reraiser has a pocket pair, which would be good for the pocket pair and bad for the other two hands. Also, especially this close to the money, the chips you stand to win are each worth less than the chips you stand to lose. So even if you know the pot odds are in your favour, that may not be enough to make a call a +EV decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... as I said YMMV (you mileage my vary) what you are doing is calling not shoving - you have no leverage with your hand against either player here pot raise =5K (1500 blinds + 1000 BB call = 2.5K = +2.5K raise) then the reraise by villian 2 (of course villian one might fold - tricky to know without a read and how many chips he has, in which case you would be HU and then its a better call - if you could guarentee only one play then its becomes better call, but you can't) AK is best when raising and playing against 1 person, not calling against 2 Damo In the one caller scenario the pot odds would be justifed in calling every hand there is apart from AA and KK - hands like AQ or KQ or even AK (not suited) I would be favourite - and the coin flip scenario is to my advantage as the pot odds are just under 2 to 1. I would take my chances 7 handed in that scenario with those pot odds. I don't call this gambling - I would call it playing to gain a positive expectation - and I have already said that I wouldn't go all-in if I thought I was a better player than the rest of the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... Not necessarily looking for advice/comments here, just thought I would share :) Mike :lol Welcome to the Punter's Lounge!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... as I said YMMV (you mileage my vary) what you are doing is calling not shoving - you have no leverage with your hand against either player here pot raise =5K (1500 blinds + 1000 BB call = 2.5K = +2.5K raise) then the reraise by villian 2 (of course villian one might fold - tricky to know without a read and how many chips he has, in which case you would be HU and then its a better call - if you could guarentee only one play then its becomes better call, but you can't) AK is best when raising and playing against 1 person, not calling against 2 Damo OK - yeah I'm calling not shoving - but that doesn't change the percentages I'm quoting - or my play. I think we'll agree to disagree on this one - one of those intriguing poker scenarios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... your leaving a big question out .what was the prize money distibution ?this would effect what i would do greatly +size of other stacks left in. if winning this hand takes you up to say 5th you may be winning 500 insead of 100 . do you want to scrape the 100 but leave yourself with a tiny stack or go for it and reap a bigger reward ,you never know maybe even win;) i think id have followed your play on the hand and gone out ,it is a game of chance after all and sometimes you need to take a chance ,after all the hand that was worst dog before the flop won, and you were not too far behind the 10s so i thought it was a good call no matter the outcome:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... I'm with Damo here. I'm not denying the strength of AK, but its still only Ace-high. You give me AK suited against one limper I'll be happy to shove, but as much as I'd hate doing it, I'd fold in this situation. In fact I've been in this situation at my local cardroom and folded AKs. It was the right thing then too. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikerowe Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... They will be renaming that 14th position after you at Eccy road soon' date=' Mike.[/quote'] :rollin Too bloomin true. I think my recent 6 outings there have ended up 14th, 3rd, 14th, 16th, 7th, 13th :lol I love the debate this post has sparked. I think, despite the positive comments, I should have passed. I would say that as I lost. If I had taken the pot I would have been in a decent position (maybe 4th biggest stack) going into the final table. This was my rationale for making the call. The point about prize money distribution is a good one. At Eccy road, like many other places, all the cash is in the top three places really. Come 10th, 9th, 8th you're only really getting your buyins back. Feh, live and learn. Next time, who knows. Tried to get into the 30 quid NLH rebuys at Owlerton tonight but missed the end of registration by 4 minutes. This may be a sign :lol (ps Alex - friendly dealer and part time home game player - is back in employment and was dealing tonight. Like he never left....) Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... Have just sent this into PokerNightLive - lets see what Tikay thinks you should have done ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... Pfft! What does he know? :@ You may as well ask Dan (all in) Harrington. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... I actually think the "right" answer might depend on the prize structure. I think calling is clearly right in a cash game, or in a winner-takes-all tournament (at least if you're not a lot better than the remaining players), but is clearly wrong in, say, a satellite with 10 winners. In between those extremes, the EV of calling will gradually slide from positive to negative as the prize structure changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... Tikay folds, but reluctantly by the sounds of it..... He wants the Fold Equity he'd get with acting first...... Also said he's been browsing the forum and was intending to sign up and join us :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... Pfft! What does he know? :@ You may as well ask Dan (all in) Harrington. ;)Tikay folds, but reluctantly by the sounds of it.....Obviously the guy knows his stuff! :lol :lol :lol :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... coin flipping? you reckon? :lol Why the mocking tones? Did you not read the original post they had Tens and Eights as it turned out. Hardly a ridiculous scenario! errr NO NO NO a pot raise followed by a reraise and you want to play AK? crikey JJ is definately being folded here, QQ probably, KK maybe, AA I am calling If you maybe fold KK here, thats absolutely ridiculous. Totally ridiculous infact, you have 5bb left. AA you are calling you say? REALLY Im well aware theres no fold equity in this but with such a short stack with a hand that could easily win you have to go with it imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... If I had taken the pot I would have been in a decent position (maybe 4th biggest stack) going into the final table. This was my rationale for making the call. The point about prize money distribution is a good one. At Eccy road, like many other places, all the cash is in the top three places really. Come 10th, 9th, 8th you're only really getting your buyins back. Reading on that cements it for me as well. I cant believe youd probably fold QQ either I really cant! Its all about stack sizes, if id have say 10-12bb I could see some sort of folding argument coming in with the AK but not really not on 5bb, thats critical man. Have you even really got any fold equity anyway with such a stack, not much is there tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikerowe Posted August 24, 2006 Author Share Posted August 24, 2006 Re: Playing tactically... lets see what Tikay thinks you should have done ;) Interesting. Got into a few hands with him last week in the Owlerton festival. Nice guy - made him smile with my instruction to the dealer to 'bring it all over here' when all-in, still players with chips. In the end my pocket tens caught another ten on the flop and held up :D Still none the wiser, but not sure I would be if this was discussed ad infinitum. I was literally down to a coin flip to call, but the thing that tipped the balance for me was that I have previously arrived at the final table short stacked and found it a real struggle to make any plays when down to a couple of big blinds. This led me to make the play in an attempt to arrive at the final table in the top half of the chip stacks. Anyway, next time I get into this situation I'll post a poll and we can see what the balance of opinion is :rollin Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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