Tax_Monkey Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Ok this is the 1st hand of the HU semi-final on poker.co.uk: Hand #393938302 at table: $10 + $1 Heads Up Started: Mon Aug 14 23:58:29 2006 Tax_Monkey is at seat 1 with 48000.00 Mikadoo is at seat 2 with 47040.00 Tax_Monkey posts the large blind 640.00 Mikadoo posts the small blind 320.00 Tax_Monkey: 9h, 8s Mikadoo: --, -- Right not the best hand but I decided to play and see the flop cheap if he lets me. Pre-flop: Mikadoo: Call 640.00 Tax_Monkey: Check Flop (Board: Ah, 9c, 2d): So he hasn't raised pre-flop which suggests he hasn't got an A, I decided to over bet the flop to discourage him calling with 2 overcards. Tax_Monkey: Bet 1920.00 Mikadoo: Call 1920.00 Turn (Board: Ah, 9c, 2d, 3d): Tax_Monkey: Bet 1920.00 Mikadoo: Raise 8320.00 Tax_Monkey: Call 8320.00 So he calls my post flop overbet, since he just flat called I've put him on 2 cards higher than 9 but still don't belive he has an ace. Then he reraises me:loon. Now I'm confused, the only thing I can figure is he's on a straight draw. River (Board: Ah, 9c, 2d, 3d, Js): Tax_Monkey: Check Mikadoo: All in Now I'm really confused and starting to think maybe he had a big pair or A rag all along. At this point Gaf? pipes up in the chatbox "Hello debrecen" and the warning box pops up ( you know the one "please choose blah blah blah") and that puts the idea in my head thats the re-raise and all-in are nothing more than a total bluff so I call Tax_Monkey: Call 36480.00 Showdown: Tax_Monkey shows: 9h, 8s (a pair of Nines) Mikadoo shows: 7h, 10d (high card, Ace) Mainpot: Tax_Monkey wins the pot of 94720 with a pair of Nines (0.00 rake were taken for this hand) So the question is was it a totally stupid thing to do, or an inspired call? Even though I won the hand I still don't know.:unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? If you feel that your a good HU player, than trying to win it all in one hand shouldn't be your strategy, especially with just middle pair. Take your time as its still early in the HU session and grind him down. just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? So he hasn't raised pre-flop which suggests he hasn't got an A, I decided to over bet the flop to discourage him calling with 2 overcards. Good call, Bad call I dunno. But the above interested me. You seem convinced he doesn't have an ace because he didn't raise preflop. Why is this ?? Personaly HU, I'm not going to raise preflop with Ace Rag. Why would you expect him to ?? You bet 1920 on the flop with middle pair, he calls. For me that'd screams top pair. You won, but only because you didn't read the signals he was sending (although he was bluffing), I'd have folded to his raise on the turn, when he pushed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensibleboy Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? Bad call? .... NO You read him perfectly m8 and cleaned him out. Im saying no more than WELL DONE ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rippyuk Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? It was obviously in hindsight a good call.. you'd clearly been playing some good heads up poker to get to this point, 'in the zone' if you like, so to rule it out as luck isn't fair. You read the situation, noticed irregularities in his betting pattern, and acted upon them - taking down the match. I'm not saying I would've called here, or that I wouldn't - but I do believe it's possible to make these gut calls when you're in tune with the game you're playing. Besides, middle pair HU is still a strong holding, especially when you can combine that with information you've gained from the way your opponent is betting. You seem convinced he doesn't have an ace because he didn't raise preflop. Why is this ?? Personaly HU, I'm not going to raise preflop with Ace Rag. Why would you expect him to ?? Hellmuth amongst others recommend treating Ax like a monster when heads up.. I don't think I ever check/call it preflop.. then again I don't check/call with many hands!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? for real, you'd raise with a3 off suit ?? You're going to run into a lot a brick walls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? for real' date=' you'd raise with a3 off suit ??[/quote'] HU? Hell yeah! :ok Raise with shite and slow play the good hands. Sometimes.... ;) PS: Tax - I would say your play was the right one in a HU situation. Once you have decided that he's not holding an A in all likelihood you're ahead. Once the river came and he went all in you may have thought 'f*(^%* Boss Media river again' (I know I would), but to have folded there would have been a mistake imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jones12345 Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? Obviously a good call u won the hand nice 1:ok.Why do all us poker players think because a guy gos all in after river hes hit.So many bluffers out there u gotta take a risk once in a while.Nice call monkey keep up the good work :ok :notworthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? for real, you'd raise with a3 off suit ?? You're going to run into a lot a brick walls With A3 offsuit, you're ahead around 85% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginnerjones Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? Hi Seems like a good call...but it was early on reason to think he may have not been bluffing...but poker is a game of chance and feeling...both were proved right in this case...excellent call under all the circumstances..nice play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginnerjones Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? Hi again I forgot to mention skill...to which of have none so it completely slipped my mind...if it had been me I would have folded middle pair early on and try to pick some better spots to grind him down...but as my winnings show...this is only a surefire way to lose not make money...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? Eeek!!! My comment made you call :loon Personally, I don't like it ...... if he is the kind of player who will keep pushing all in with nothing when you're raising - then you should be playing "ABC" poker against him - you'll have far better situations against him...... Although you got the right result, and read him right, it doesn't necessarily make it a good call..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerBarney Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? "You bet 1920 on the flop with middle pair, he calls. For me that'd screams top pair." Flat call with top pair, HU, with the top being an ace with no preflop raising? I can imagine this happening sometimes, but to then push the river isn't a value bet. It's a "bugger off and fold your middle pair" bet. The overbet on the flop looked the same - like TM was trying to push him off the hand, so he decided to try the same thing on the turn (a silly time to do it.. since it's very unlikely the 3 helped him, unless he's got 45 or something). Tax - the check on the river was horrible. You're basically asking him to push all in. Why not push over the top of him on the turn if you're sure you're ahead? Don't give him the odds to draw. So the call was good, because his bets didn't make much sense. But, had you played the turn more aggressively, you wouldn't be in that tough spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? Personaly HU' date=' I'm not going to raise preflop with Ace Rag. Why would you expect him to ??[/quote'] HU, I raise pre flop with any A-x, unless I'm trying to mix it up with a specific hand...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? because HU play is about high cards - high cards win HU and if you are not raising with an Ace then what would you raise with?:eek :eek :eek high cards with HU matches, not pairs or straights of flushes - you must raise with an Ace otherwise you are going to get beat by letting someone in for free most flops miss hands (you will hit a pair on the flop about 30% of the time), so assume that it has missed your oppo and get betting this is a fundamental piece of HU play, one that needs mastering if you are to win more than you lose - always always always raise with an Ace and be prepared to reraise and/or shove if its your BB and the SB raises when you have an Ace HU I am raising a huge range of hands everything from AA to 32 (in other words EVEVRY conceivable holding) dependant on chips stack to blinds to how I rate how loose/tight my opponent is, and you will find most other people are also doing similar Damo You seem convinced he doesn't have an ace because he didn't raise preflop. Why is this ?? Personaly HU' date=' [b']I'm not going to raise preflop with Ace Rag. Why would you expect him to ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? disagree, what better chance have you got? if you read him as bluffing then get your chips in whilst you are ahead! forget the sucky out draw, you need to win NOW not by playing ABC poker later and being beaten by better cards - poker is about winning not about playing 'proper' poker and winning 'properly' get them in whilst ahead, the odds are in your favour for him to NOT hit his sucky draw so it was a good call if you believe he was bluffing/behind - of course with the full HH it makes it easier to judge (next time just postthe HH up to just before your decision to generate more comment and then what you did later to see what folks think? just a thought, as it becomes less results led and more decision lead) Damo Although you got the right result, and read him right, it doesn't necessarily make it a good call..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? the only time I mix up with Ax is AA, especially if I am the sb and the BB has consistenly shown he shoves if you limp :lol :lol :lol its too powerful to play cleverly and get outdrawn, so maximise its value PF and hope for the call Damo HU' date=' I raise pre flop with any A-x, unless I'm trying to mix it up with a specific hand......[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? The way I think about ace-rag heads-up is that it's not a big favourite against many hands, but it is a favourite against most (about 85% to 90%, depending on the rag), and that means that if you raise, then you don't mind if he folds, since he probably had pot-odds to call, and you don't mind if he calls, since you're probably ahead. It's more complicated than this, of course, but generally it's the hands where you're only slightly ahead where it's most important to raise. You don't want him to have a chance of catching up without paying for it, but you don't particularly mind if you chase him out, as your advantage is worth less than the blinds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? disagree' date=' what better chance have you got? if you read him as bluffing [/quote'] But how certain can you be that he is bluffing? When this is the first hand you have seen him play? If it is a bluff, then it is a diabolical play (and in the Semi Final, I would have to give him more respect than that) and you probably will go on to beat him - if it isn't a bluff, then you are out of the tourney....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? I was watching the game Tax and TBH I was surprised to see your call (but not as surprised as when I saw his cards) but now working through your reasoning it does seem to make sense but everyone is different and HU play has so many variations depending on the read. As this was the first hand the only read you really had was that this guy was from Debrecen :lol ( not a bad read). Well done and sorry I'm missed the final I had to get up early this morning but very well played :clap:clap:clap PS I raise preflop with anything above J high (bearing in mind that is the average hand HU) but sometimes HU depending on the pattern of play I may check an A to mix it up a little and that A would have been on my mind and wouldn't have called the all in but who am I to say I finished 11th :cry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tax_Monkey Posted August 15, 2006 Author Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? Eeek!!! My comment made you call :loon Personally, I don't like it ...... if he is the kind of player who will keep pushing all in with nothing when you're raising - then you should be playing "ABC" poker against him - you'll have far better situations against him...... Although you got the right result, and read him right, it doesn't necessarily make it a good call..... Sort of, in reality I think I was just looking for an excuse. Have thought about this a lot today and I think you've hit the nail on the head with this: Although you got the right result, and read him right, it doesn't necessarily make it a good call..... Thanks for the replies guys some interesting viewpoints. To answer Foolsgold, yes HU I pretty much always raise A rag, as Slap says your a favourite most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? the only time I mix up with Ax is AA' date=' [/quote'] Sorry mate - disagree - if it is low M, no argument, but in a HU tournament where you start with high M, then being overaggressive (especially against a patient opponent) will see you undone..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tax_Monkey Posted August 15, 2006 Author Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? Tax - the check on the river was horrible. You're basically asking him to push all in. Why not push over the top of him on the turn if you're sure you're ahead? Don't give him the odds to draw. Very interesting point. That hadn't occured to me, as I say by that point I was totally confused by the way he played but I can see how my check would have encouraged him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? Sorry mate - disagree - if it is low M' date=' no argument, but in a HU tournament where you start with high M, then being overaggressive (especially against a patient opponent) will see you undone.....[/quote'] I agree ... except that I don't see how what you wrote is disagreeing with what Damo said about Ax and AA. :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tax_Monkey Posted August 15, 2006 Author Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? disagree, what better chance have you got? if you read him as bluffing then get your chips in whilst you are ahead! forget the sucky out draw, you need to win NOW not by playing ABC poker later and being beaten by better cards - poker is about winning not about playing 'proper' poker and winning 'properly' How much of a read do you need though? I had decided he'd not got an A but beyond that was pretty clueless:lol EDit: I posted the full HH because by that time quite a few people knew the result anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? I agree ... except that I don't see how what you wrote is disagreeing with what Damo said about Ax and AA. :unsure My disagreement was that in a High M game you do need to mix it up with Ax from time to time - if you ALWAYS raise with an A, you are being too consistent and too predicatable when there is too much time left in the tourney. Damo is saying raise with Ax EVERY time, in a high M game..... I'm saying I will occasionally flat call with Ax in a high M game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? How much of a read do you need though? I had decided he'd not got an A but beyond that was pretty clueless:lol So you considered he could have 2 pair, trips, 9 with higher kicker, a straight or an overpair less likely than it was a complete bluff? (based on nothing except he was from Debrecen :lol :lol ;)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? (based on nothing except he was from Debrecen :lol :lol ;)) And of course his betting pattern........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tax_Monkey Posted August 15, 2006 Author Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? So you considered he could have 2 pair' date=' trips, 9 with higher kicker, a straight or an overpair less likely than it was a complete bluff? (based on nothing except he was from Debrecen :lol :lol ;))[/quote'] Yep. Thought it was a given Debrecen=Complete bluff with shite:lol:lol:lol:lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Re: Good call/Bad call? good call tax mikadoo just went all in 1st hand of the cruise and went out :rollin:rollin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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