Early Doors

[Cloud]

Second hand of a STT - did I play this badly or was I just unlucky?? - any constructive criticism is welcome. (It was a speed tournament - so bear this in mind). ***** Hand History for Game 4925963599 ***** 0/0 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 27236396) - Fri Aug 11 15:09:33 EDT 2006 Table Monster Qualifier Speed (Real Money) -- Seat 7 is the button Total number of players : 10 Seat 1: GdpaIke (2000) Seat 2: Thorn__ (1960) Seat 3: franco42 (2160) Seat 4: the_cloud (2000) Seat 5: KBBPOKER (1720) Seat 6: kgs77 (2260) Seat 7: jaybeecee (2020) Seat 8: milkmanfl3 (1920) Seat 9: marik69 (2000) Seat 10: livetoplay51 (1960) milkmanfl3 posts small blind (20) marik69 posts big blind (40) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to the_cloud [ Tc, Th ] livetoplay51 raises (80) to 80 GdpaIke folds. Thorn__ folds. franco42 calls (80) the_cloud raises (388) to 388 KBBPOKER folds. kgs77 folds. jaybeecee folds. milkmanfl3 folds. marik69 folds. livetoplay51 calls (308) franco42 calls (308) ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8c, Td, Ks ] livetoplay51 checks. franco42 checks. the_cloud bets (214) livetoplay51 calls (214) franco42 calls (214) ** Dealing Turn ** : [ Js ] livetoplay51 checks. franco42 checks. the_cloud bets (1398) the_cloud is all-In. livetoplay51 folds. franco42 calls (1398) ** Dealing River ** : [ Qs ] Creating Main Pot with $4662 with the_cloud ** Summary ** Main Pot: 4662 | Board: [ 8c Td Ks Js Qs ] GdpaIke balance 2000, didn't bet (folded) Thorn__ balance 1960, didn't bet (folded) franco42 balance 4822, bet 2000, collected 4662, net +2662 [ 9d 8s ] [ a straight, nine to king -- Ks,Qs,Js,Td,9d ] the_cloud balance 0, lost 2000 [ Tc Th ] [ three of a kind, tens -- Ks,Qs,Tc,Th,Td ] KBBPOKER balance 1720, didn't bet (folded) kgs77 balance 2260, didn't bet (folded) jaybeecee balance 2020, didn't bet (folded) milkmanfl3 balance 1900, lost 20 (folded) marik69 balance 1960, lost 40 (folded) livetoplay51 balance 1358, lost 602 (folded)

[sensibleboy]

Re: Early Doors Heres my view on this: You raised preflop which was right obviously. However with 2 callers you would have to put the other 2 on an Ace with a high kicker or a decent pair (or at least I would have). It turns out he only had a 8 9 so that was wrong. Anyway with the 10 coming on the flop you should have moved all in and that probably would have forced him to fold his hand. However you only bet 214 and he rightly called with bottom pair and a straight draw. Whereas if you moved all in, would he really have called with bottom pair and a straight draw especially as he knows you raised preflop. I wouldnt think so and even if he did you can at least tell yourself you made the right move but luck just went against you.

[Cloud]

Re: Early Doors The post flop bet of 214 was the part of the hand that was designed to boost the pot by a little - the rainbow flop and the unlikely straight gave me the confidence to do that. However in doing that I knew I was giving a free card - but I thought it real unlikely it could hurt me. When the Jack came after the flop, that's when I knew there were straight possibilities - but I thought the all-in then would see off anyone with a straight draw. I'm still wondering if I was being greedy with the post flop bet - but the payout was 75% for 1st place - so I knew I had to play relatively aggressively.

[robilaruk]

Re: Early Doors 1200 chips in the middle on the flop - so bet more than 200 please and do not give them great odds to call with any 2 (200? any 2 broadway cards to make a straight and people are calling) - make it a decent bet 600 or so otherwise fine - like the turn shove after the mistake on the flop Ignore the trips and the thought of slowplaying, (hey who I am to say after my debacle!!) but on a 10 handed table you are more likely to be up against a King, or two pair or drawing hand especially given your raise PF - and agianst 2 oppos you want to get HU at least on that flop I would say Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: Early Doors good reasoning on the first part 2nd part - I wouldn't move all in - I would however make a value bet of half the pot or so - enough to make chasers pay for incorrect pot odds but enough to bleed some more chips - and yes 214 into a 1200 pot is bad 3rd part - would he prolly have called with bottom pair on the flop to a push?- he has 2 cards to come and will blindly believe you have AQ and have missed, or that he will get lucky with 2 to come and out draw you - lets see he might well call with 2 cards on the turn it is a poor call from the villian - if cloud has raised with an A, then a Q beats him - so he is actually only calling to hit a 7 for his straight or an 8 for trips, as the 9 for 2 pair might also fill clouds straight if he has a Q (if he assumes that cloud hasn't already got trips - obviously the 8 give a FH - I am thinking this from the villians perspective) cant see too much wrong apart from the poor flop bet Damo

Heres my view on this: You raised preflop which was right obviously. However with 2 callers you would have to put the other 2 on an Ace with a high kicker or a decent pair (or at least I would have). It turns out he only had a 8 9 so that was wrong. Anyway with the 10 coming on the flop you should have moved all in and that probably would have forced him to fold his hand. However you only bet 214 and he rightly called with bottom pair and a straight draw. Whereas if you moved all in, would he really have called with bottom pair onespecially as he knows you raised preflop. I wouldnt think so and even if he did you can at least tell yourself you made the right move but luck just went against you.

[robilaruk]

Re: Early Doors you don't need to boost the pot - there is 1200 chips in there! its 3/4 of your total stack!! if they have missed then they will fold, if they have a draw you need to make them pay - 214 achieves nothing except to entice a call for 6-1 pot odds re free card - I am as guilty as anyone at this - but not a good idea with so many chips at stake shove - nice - if they are drawing make them pay - can't fault you on this and yes you were being greedy on the flop, too greedy, you should have grabbed the 1200 already there rather than get another 200 out of them :) next time!!! :hope :ok Damo

The post flop bet of 214 was the part of the hand that was designed to boost the pot by a little - the rainbow flop and the unlikely straight gave me the confidence to do that. However in doing that I knew I was giving a free card - but I thought it real unlikely it could hurt me. When the Jack came after the flop, that's when I knew there were straight possibilities - but I thought the all-in then would see off anyone with a straight draw. I'm still wondering if I was being greedy with the post flop bet - but the payout was 75% for 1st place - so I knew I had to play relatively aggressively.

[Valiant23]

Re: Early Doors To be fair this is one of those examples which displays one of my failings... I want to get paid, but I don't want to give people runner runner opportunities, and I have a little difficulty in seeing that kind of danger. It isn't until these unlikely cards hit to give the gutshot str8 or runner flush that I start to bet heavily, in order to try and close the hand down - unfortunately the kind of people who think that, "I've hit a pair (they don't consider the overpairs), and if I get another or a Q or J comes then its worth chasing", are likely to call anything on the turn and stake their tourney on catching the river.

[robilaruk]

Re: Early Doors i would say this as a quick rule of thumb if you are unsure how to play the flop if you have reraised PF, hit trips and there is: an ace or K (not both) on the board - BET A LOT at least half the pot- the chances are that someone has hit their A or K and will call to your trips - if they have set over set, you are unlucky if there are 2 broadway cards on the flop - bet pot or SHOVE if pot bet is around 50% of your remaining stack if there are two flush cards on the flop - bet pot or SHOVE if pot bet is around 50% of your remaining stack if there is a Q to your lower trips, bet half pot if there is a J to your trips, bet 1/3 pot about it really Damo

To be fair this is one of those examples which displays one of my failings... I want to get paid, but I don't want to give people runner runner opportunities, and I have a little difficulty in seeing that kind of danger. It isn't until these unlikely cards hit to give the gutshot str8 or runner flush that I start to bet heavily, in order to try and close the hand down - unfortunately the kind of people who think that, "I've hit a pair (they don't consider the overpairs), and if I get another or a Q or J comes then its worth chasing", are likely to call anything on the turn and stake their tourney on catching the river.

[AJ]

Re: Early Doors Let's try and look at it from the prespective of other chair. You've been raised pre flop and called, if your oponent (the cloud) pushed with the following board. [ 8c, Td, Ks ] What would you do ? what hands would you call with ?? me, with this board, I'd call the push holding, AA KK, AK, K8, K10, KQ or 10-8. Any other 2 cards I'd fold I'm another that says you should have oushed on the turn, there was enough chips in the pot to win, no need to slow play for an extra 200 chips, asking for trouble with a straight draw on the board

[guesswest]

Re: Early Doors I like the idea of slow playing this a bit. Obviously it increases your chances of busting but it's a much safer opportunity than you're likely to have to pick up an equivalent amount of chips later, especially in a speed tourney, so I have no objection to the theory. But I think you should have bet more on the flop anyway. Your bet is so small it looks weird and you want to put out as much as he's likely to call. And since, as you say, there are no draws on the board, it's highly unlikely you'd get a reraise if someone has hit a hand. I'd have stuck in whatever bet feels like your typical continuation bet - something in the region of a half pot-size bet Useful here is probably to imagine you have a hand you'd like your opponents to put you on. If you had AQ or 99 or something like that on this flop, and you were having a go at buying it/finding out where you are, I'm guessing you'd put in more than you do with your set here. You want to make your bet whatever it'd be in that situation because that's the hand you want to represent. If they have absolutely nothing they'll probably fold, but they'd fold to your smaller bet anyway, and as Damo pointed out, chances that they've connected with this flop are pretty good.

[Cloud]

Re: Early Doors Cheers guys for the advice. I'm glad I got some vindication for the slowplay - but yeah, it was a weird way to play it - and I paid for it. The hand actually did play out quite well - I managed to get a player all-in with an open-ended straight - with pot odds of only 2.3 to 1 - but unfortunately he hit the straight. I do actually think that as he called in that situation, he might well have called whatever I had done post flop (including the all-in). I know I'd like to play him again ;) 300 posts!!!!!!!