AJ Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 As some of you might know, I'm having a bit of a crisis with my heads up play at the end of STT's, I'm winning no more than 1 in 3, and the confidence is in freefall. Tonight I find my self heads up at the end of 5 player STT on Virgin, do I call the guy here, or lay it down assuming an overpair. Essentially the STT is at stake in this hand ===================================================== Hand #388326591 at table: 5 Player $5 NL Started: Mon Aug 07 20:33:18 2006 ADRIANUS is at seat 4 with 2970.00 FOOLSGOLD1 is at seat 5 with 4080.00 FOOLSGOLD1 posts the large blind 300.00 ADRIANUS posts the small blind 150.00 FOOLSGOLD1: 7s, Qs ADRIANUS: --, -- Pre-flop: ADRIANUS: Raise 600.00 FOOLSGOLD1: Call 600.00 Flop (Board: Qh, 3d, 2s): FOOLSGOLD1: Check ADRIANUS: All in FOOLSGOLD1 ????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold I'd push all in. If he had AA or KK he'd have bet the flop harder. If he had slow played the flop with those hands he wouldn't now push all in - the slow play would continue. He's gone all in because you've checked the flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold I think it's very hard without knowing more about the other guy. How has he been playing up to this point? If I didn't know anything about him, I'd probably fold this one. But I think it's a lot more likely he's beating you with a pair of queens and a better kicker than with an overpair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiolasvegas Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold Without any other info, my pick would be to push all-in. Unfortunately, I'm a bit of a maniac HU, so perhaps that's not a lot of help. The small pre-flop bet, followed by an overbet on the flop doesn't look like a Ks or As monster. I'd have to play this as if he's missed the flop and I'm ahead. Also, I'd shove with nothing if I thought I could get someone holding top pair post-flop to fold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted August 7, 2006 Author Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold He's been quite tight to this point, as have I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socky1 Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold If he has AA or KK then he played it very well IMO and like previos poster said if was slowplaying it he may of continued the slow play. So what hand are actually putting him though well the obvious One is the Stone Cold nothing however im putting him a low pair or maybe double ended straight draw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Puntalot Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold I'd be all in instantly, you have top pair and they are queens, you're not making a mistake by going all in, imo. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Puntalot Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold If I was guessing what the guy had, I would say a pair of jacks or AK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted August 7, 2006 Author Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold Here's the full hand history, I call. ===================================================== Hand #388326591 at table: 5 Player $5 NL Started: Mon Aug 07 20:33:18 2006 ADRIANUS is at seat 4 with 2970.00 FOOLSGOLD1 is at seat 5 with 4080.00 FOOLSGOLD1 posts the large blind 300.00 ADRIANUS posts the small blind 150.00 FOOLSGOLD1: 7s, Qs ADRIANUS: --, -- Pre-flop: ADRIANUS: Raise 600.00 FOOLSGOLD1: Call 600.00 Flop (Board: Qh, 3d, 2s): FOOLSGOLD1: Check ADRIANUS: All in FOOLSGOLD1: Call 2520.00 Showdown: ADRIANUS shows: 7h, 6s (high card, Queen) FOOLSGOLD1 shows: 7s, Qs (a pair of Queens) Turn (Board: Qh, 3d, 2s, 7c): River (Board: Qh, 3d, 2s, 7c, 5h): FOOLSGOLD1 shows: 7s, Qs (two pair, Queens and Sevens) Mainpot: FOOLSGOLD1 wins the pot of 6240 with two pair, Queens and Sevens I win the pot, and the STT (played 2, won 2 tonight ;) ), but I was a heartbeat away from folding. He's raised pre flop, then pushed at the flop with 7 6 off suit, looking back at it from here, it's just a very poorly executed bluff. Even with 76 off, surely he'd have to put me on a higher card and a equal chance of making a pair. and beating him. I suppose he had straight possibilities. I think (now) my check on the flop enticed him into thinking I had nothing, if I'd bet here, I think he would have folded. If he was going to steal, he should have pushed all in straight away pre-flop. I'd have folded Q7 in a second. I don't think either of us played well. Very nearly worked though.................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Puntalot Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold I would call 100 times out of 100 there, quite simply you have to - heads up is all about aggression. I've only played 7 heads up and won 5 of them, 2 of them MTT's and 2 STT's, but I win more than I lose because of the aggression I show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold I would call 100 times out of 100 there' date=' quite simply you have to - heads up is all about aggression. I've only played 7 heads up and won 5 of them, 2 of them MTT's and 2 STT's, but I win more than I lose because of the aggression I show.[/quote']Controlled aggression. ;) Top pair HU is a massive hand and if someone goes all in you have to call. Fools, I think you maybe need to realise the fun that you can have when you get HU. You can raise with 64os, flat call with QQ, play Q 10 as though they're pocket Aces because you will see SO few showdowns. All of the above plays could be criticised at any other time, but when you're HU, anything goes. Text book poker goes out of the window. Try this next time you get heads up. If you have a hand that you'd fold, then raise with it. If you have a hand that you'd call with, raise it bigger. Then when you hit a 'real' hand, flat call. A poor player would sense weakness and maybe the'll try and raise you off the hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmcroft Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold words of wisdom from mr v :ok however HU me 63 os got busted by JJ just now on an STT :spank however i'm still :rollin :rollin i'll look forward to losing another $10 profit in me next game V!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgej Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold Fools - i would have played it exactly the same way. Check after the flop, but hope he goes allin. Always a bit of a struggle when evenly matched, but that allin was either a large hit (2 pair or minimum overpair), or a huge bluff. With the cards on the board and no preflop raise, it would need to be a call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold what a dream play for you - such an easy call - you have TOP PAIR - ignore your kicker, generally (90% of the time) its not important if your confidence is low and you can't outplay your oppo then just call with any pair on the flop regardless you will be ahead most of the time (somewhere between 50-60% of flops miss folks) and win most of those when you do get called Never lay down top pair unless you have a VERY specific read or the board is really dangerous (3 card flush/str etc), in which case think about it Hope you called and don't be led by results if you did and he flipped over trips etc - IT IS THE CORRECT CALL EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK (and twice on sunday!) Cheers Damo As some of you might know, I'm having a bit of a crisis with my heads up play at the end of STT's, I'm winning no more than 1 in 3, and the confidence is in freefall. Tonight I find my self heads up at the end of 5 player STT on Virgin, do I call the guy here, or lay it down assuming an overpair. Essentially the STT is at stake in this hand ===================================================== Hand #388326591 at table: 5 Player $5 NL Started: Mon Aug 07 20:33:18 2006 ADRIANUS is at seat 4 with 2970.00 FOOLSGOLD1 is at seat 5 with 4080.00 FOOLSGOLD1 posts the large blind 300.00 ADRIANUS posts the small blind 150.00 FOOLSGOLD1: 7s, Qs ADRIANUS: --, -- Pre-flop: ADRIANUS: Raise 600.00 FOOLSGOLD1: Call 600.00 Flop (Board: Qh, 3d, 2s): FOOLSGOLD1: Check ADRIANUS: All in FOOLSGOLD1 ????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold no no no very bad to fold here - you have top pair, what is beating you? AA KK 33 and 22 - he may have a Q but with 2 out that is a slim chance and even if he does you haven't lost it yet you are winning this hand 8/10 at the minute and will win 6/8 at showdown - this really is an easy call and is a +EV call in the long run If you are worried about hitting top pair and losing then best not to play anything bar AA preflop as you cannot guarentee to be ahead at any point :tongue2 Why wouldn't you call with your Q - what would be your minimum kicker to call with Slap? Just call and don't be result led - it is the correct play to make every day of the week Damo I think it's very hard without knowing more about the other guy. How has he been playing up to this point? If I didn't know anything about him, I'd probably fold this one. But I think it's a lot more likely he's beating you with a pair of queens and a better kicker than with an overpair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold words of wisdom from mr v :ok however HU me 63 os got busted by JJ just now on an STT :spank however i'm still :rollin :rollin i'll look forward to losing another $10 profit in me next game V!!:loon :$ :$ :$ :$ Sorry elm! BUT, obviously if you have shite and you get reraised then you have to lay it down don't you? :unsure I've walked into big hands too, but the exercise for foolsgold is to make him let go of any preconcieved ideas once he is playing HU. I would never ever go all in with something such as 63os, but occasionally I will play those cards and raise. I think I've possibly played more HU poker than fools, and it took me a long time to realise that sometimes the worst hole cards can be the winning hand (as Damo has proven with his 'pop quiz'). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold OK, maybe I'm wrong, but ... no no no very bad to fold here - you have top pair, what is beating you? AA KK 33 and 22 - he may have a Q but with 2 out that is a slim chance and even if he does you haven't lost it yet Yes, there are only two queens out, but there are LOTS of high kickers. There are 96 hands he could have with a queen and a higher kicker, plus 12 more with a queen and a 2 or 3 making two pair, and the majority of these 108 hands are consistent with his betting. There are only 18 ways for him to have AA, KK, 33 or 22, and with 12 of these (AA or KK) he's quite likely to have slow-played pre-flop. He's WAYYYY more likely to have a queen than one of the other hands that is beating you. you are winning this hand 8/10 at the minute and will win 6/8 at showdown - this really is an easy call and is a +EV call in the long run If you are worried about hitting top pair and losing then best not to play anything bar AA preflop as you cannot guarentee to be ahead at any point :tongue2 Why wouldn't you call with your Q - what would be your minimum kicker to call with Slap? I wouldn't call, because I'd already have bet, and wouldn't be in this situation. I just don't think this hand is quite good enough to try to induce a bluff. Just call and don't be result led - it is the correct play to make every day of the week Not sure how I'm being result led. The result was that I was wrong. :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold There are 96 hands he could have with a queen and a higher kicker Whoops, 48. I never could do maths. :$ But the point still stands. If he's beating you, it's probably with a queen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rippyuk Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold Even without reading anyone elses response, mine would be to call, every time. Heads up I generally work on the principle that if I have it, chances are they don't.. more often than not you're the only one who connected with the flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold ok let me ask you this You have AA KK 33 22 Q3 Q2 QA QK QQ QJ Q10 are you shoving that flop? or are you betting for value to get another 200-300 out of your opponent? if you shove and your oppo has nothing he folds and you gain nothing - if you shove and oppo has a 3 or 2 he is probaby folding (I would say 80% of the time) so you gain nothing people are only shoving with a bluff or a lower pair than QQ hoping that you missed the flop, or a 3 or 2 or a draw or Ax flops miss 67% of the time (according to Annie Duke in IE mag this month) - I would never ever(well 99% of the time) lay down top pair heads up- it is madness to do so, and if you are then this is a serious leak that you need to fix right now Damo OK, maybe I'm wrong, but ... Yes, there are only two queens out, but there are LOTS of high kickers. There are 96 hands he could have with a queen and a higher kicker, plus 12 more with a queen and a 2 or 3 making two pair, and the majority of these 108 hands are consistent with his betting. There are only 18 ways for him to have AA, KK, 33 or 22, and with 12 of these (AA or KK) he's quite likely to have slow-played pre-flop. He's WAYYYY more likely to have a queen than one of the other hands that is beating you. I wouldn't call, because I'd already have bet, and wouldn't be in this situation. I just don't think this hand is quite good enough to try to induce a bluff. Not sure how I'm being result led. The result was that I was wrong. :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerBarney Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold Fools - "He's raised pre flop, then pushed at the flop with 7 6 off suit, looking back at it from here, it's just a very poorly executed bluff. Even with 76 off, surely he'd have to put me on a higher card and a equal chance of making a pair. and beating him. I suppose he had straight possibilities." It was quite a good bluff. You couldn't call unless you had the Q, and there's not a lot of chance of that after you checked. I would've done exactly the same as him. Plus, you did *almost* fold... :) Slap - " Yes, there are only two queens out, but there are LOTS of high kickers." With Q7o on that board, you're 80% against a random hand. Considering HU is so short and the need for agression, I don't think you can ever fold it since he might've been raising with anything. I think the interesting question here, is why check the flop? If you're checking, it's probably to get him to bet right? In which case, great - you've got all his chips. You can't possibly call the raise pre-flop, hit top pair and then think you're behind. If that *is* what you're thinking, why bother calling pre-flop - what are you hoping to hit? So Fools - what was your strategy on the flop? Why the check? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted August 7, 2006 Author Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold The check was a holdiong move, he'd raised preflop in my mind I put him on a pocket pair. At this stage I figured myself ahead, but wasn't sure. I was trying to get an idea of where he was. tbh I expected a check in return or at most a flat raise.The check was to let him bet, and try and get a better picture of where he was. In retrospect (great thing eh ??) This handed control of the hand to him, from that point I was reacting to his plays, rather than controlling it myself. Learned a lot here, thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Fear Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold I would have folded before the flop.:unsure But then again, maybe that's why I never win (m)any Heads-Up games:cry Red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerBarney Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold "The check was a holdiong move, he'd raised preflop in my mind I put him on a pocket pair. At this stage I figured myself ahead, but wasn't sure" "The check was to let him bet, and try and get a better picture of where he was." A check is never a holding move. You can't get an idea of where he is by checking. The chances are he'll bet whether he's strong or not.. you're not putting him to any decision. If you want to find out where you're at - put in a good sized bet. If he's strong he'll raise, if he's not he'll fold. Oh, and top pair on the flop (HU) is almost always in front. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Re: Call or fold why would you fold here? you are getting 3:1 to call and you are only behind to, and getting incorrect odds to call AA KK & QQ PF - against every other hand he has you are getting at least the correct odds to call (even the Q better kicker hands where he is a 70/30 fav QA to a 63/37 Q8 = a massive 7% swing). And guess what your odds are if he has 77 - I think you will be pleasantly suprised :) whats nice is they are suited, so thats another 2% in your favour (assuming he hasn't got the same suit). Its 300 out of 4080, 1/13 or your stack and piddling amount to hit the flop and beat him. If you are folding these hands in this situation it is a leak and needs fixing quick! (if the blinds were 400/800 then it becomes a marginal call in my book, as he is pot commited and you are all in on the flop regardless) - but in this case you can see a cheap flop and chuck it if it completely misses you at little risk to your stack. Hope this helps :ok Damo ps to be honest I am calling with any 2 cards to a min raise in this situation - its that clear cut pps Red if you are struggling then either post some HH, or scenario's for us to discuss and hopefully help you get better at HU play. I would have folded before the flop.:unsure But then again, maybe that's why I never win (m)any Heads-Up games:cry Red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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