Fixed Limit

[Stephen]

What can a slightly above average player expect to make per hour (eg one BB) and what would you estimate to be the maximum loss in say a 4 hour session. Hope some of you have opinions and thanks in advance.

[Cloud]

Re: Fixed Limit I think the answer depends on limits. At a medium limit size, a good player would expect to make one big blind an hour. At smaller limits I would expect it to be somewhat higher. Couldn't tell you the worst case scenario.

[PokerBarney]

Re: Fixed Limit Playing limit poker at low stakes is (in my experience) often the same as playing any other poker variation against a bunch of blind players who don't have either a) very talented guide dogs, or b) braille cards. In other words, there's no point because no-one will fold, everyone will draw out on you, and you will die. Maybe I just hate limit.. actually yes, I hate limit. It's almost impossible to bluff, or to put any real pressure on anyone. Cards rule the limit roosts, and it makes for a dull game. All IMO of course :)

[Stephen]

Re: Fixed Limit I'm playing at the 5/10 level and would be interested to hear from anyone making around 1000 pm with a couple of years experience.

[guesswest]

Re: Fixed Limit Just my opinion - but I think it's very difficult if not impossible to make a profit playing limit at micro-stakes, I know I can't do it. I used to regularly beat bigger games when I was playing limit regularly - at $5/$10 (and sometimes $10/$20) I was making about 4BB an hour averaged over at least 200k hands. But I just can't beat micro-stakes, can maybe just about beat the game, but not the rake. I think it's a combination of things that makes it hard to do, but it's NOT cos 'it's full of fish that'll call with anything' :D Edit: That's 4BB an hour over 2 tables, just to be clear.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Fixed Limit

What can a slightly above average player expect to make per hour (eg one BB)

The pro's figure that making about one, maybe two BB an hour playing Limit Poker would see you doing well. "Slightly above average" probably means your a break even - small profit kind of player, but being that I dont play Limit, and I dont know you at all I cant really comment...

and what would you estimate to be the maximum loss in say a 4 hour session.

The maximum you can lose in a 4 hour session is your entire bankroll.... YOu could get dealt aces ever hand straight for 4 hours, and have it cracked almost every time. Highly unlikely and if that happens the universe would probably collapse - but my point is that poker IS a game of chance, and even playing PERFECT poker you can and will go on some length losing steaks if you play for long enough....

[Stephen]

Re: Fixed Limit Thanks for the replies guys. I operate with a 200 x BB bankroll to pretty much eliminate bankruptcy.I've been playing for two years and have consistently made the one BB per hour "pros average?".Whats prompted me to ask for feedback from you guys is that so far this month I have experienced severe losing sessions on 10 occasions.IE losing more than 75 x BB in a four hour session.Normally I would expect no more than 4 or 5 of these bad lossing sessions per month. I just wondered if anyone else perhaps with more years experience than myself could confirm or otherwise that FIXED LIMIT can be this volatile.

[FatBoyFat]

Re: Fixed Limit

Thanks for the replies guys. I operate with a 200 x BB bankroll to pretty much eliminate bankruptcy.I've been playing for two years and have consistently made the one BB per hour "pros average?".Whats prompted me to ask for feedback from you guys is that so far this month I have experienced severe losing sessions on 10 occasions.IE losing more than 75 x BB in a four hour session.Normally I would expect no more than 4 or 5 of these bad lossing sessions per month. I just wondered if anyone else perhaps with more years experience than myself could confirm or otherwise that FIXED LIMIT can be this volatile.

Hi Stephen, I'm no expert and I haven't checked the facts I'm quoting here but Sklansky et al historically have recommended a 300BB bankroll as good money management that should be sufficient to absorb the -ve variance a winning player would experience every now and then. This would therefore suggest that 200BB wouldn't pretty much eliminate bankruptcy, expecially as you have experienced a 75BB downswing in 4 hours recently. Another 125BB and your bankrupt on that measure. Some of the high stakes online players have talked about 1,500BB downswings occurring and you might want to look up some of the stats programs that are out there to calculate your risk of ruin with a 200BB bankroll. I would imagine that it is higher than you would want it to be. I think StatKing may be a useful program for you, there is a section where it will tell you how much you need in your bankroll if you are prepared to accept a 5% chance of going broke. The program should give you guidance on how to interpret this. IMHO I actually think that limit is probably more volatile than what you have experienced to date. GL, FBF.

[Stephen]

Re: Fixed Limit Thanks FBF , I will download the StatKing demo.

[H1ghlander]

Re: Fixed Limit 300 x bb is the recommended bankroll for a limit, i must stress that fixed limit holdem is a completely different beast table image is paramount i would seriously consider changing tables if you go behind by 30x bb so that you can preserve some sort of image , what kind of games do you prefer 10 handed or 6 handed i'm a short handed fixed limit player one that destroys a table short handed but stick me on a 10 handed game and i will get destroyed it just does not suit my style of play when high limit players are talking of 1500 x bb down swings these games are often short like 2/3 players then the game does get very violent only a poor player would expect to have such a swing playing 5/10 again it all depends on the game you play in do you go for small av pots or large average pots to suit my game i always opt for games with the biggest average wilder the better this is fraught with danger tho simply because the variance can be higher than normal however the upside is your win rate is substantially higher i tend to float around limits looking for juicy games i'm often on 1-2 fixed or 2-4, 3-6, 4-8 and 5-10 and game selection Bankroll Management is very important very few people when they get stuck can walk away sometimes you just have to something once said to me when i embarked on a career playing poker and to this day i utilise it quote* there is always another day for poker it is not going anywhere the game will still be here tomorrow* basically if ya having a bad day switch of the pc come back the day after fresh And remember this too You have to kill the snake before it bites you

[chelskired]

Re: Fixed Limit

what kind of games do you prefer 10 handed or 6 handed i'm a short handed fixed limit player one that destroys a table short handed but stick me on a 10 handed game and i will get destroyed it just does not suit my style of play And remember this too You have to kill the snake before it bites you

Would you mind expanding on this comment mate? I am having Major probs on Mansion Short handed tables (Dome) and 38th is my best finish. Not bad considering but cant get my head round 6 players every hand and work out when/if i should be in/out etc so any experiences/storys/hand history that you could talk thro would be great:ok C.R.

[Stephen]

Re: Fixed Limit table image is paramount i would seriously consider changing tables if you go behind by 30x bb so that you can preserve some sort of image yep i can see the logic in that what kind of games do you prefer 10 handed or 6 handed i'm a short handed fixed limit player one that destroys a table short handed but stick me on a 10 handed game and i will get destroyed it just does not suit my style of play both i only play decent starting hands and then play the odds bluffing no more than 5% of hands.unlike NL i dont see any edge in mixing it up. when high limit players are talking of 1500 x bb down swings these games are often short like 2/3 players then the game does get very violent only a poor player would expect to have such a swing playing 5/10 again it all depends on the game you play in do you go for small av pots or large average pots to suit my game i always opt for games with the biggest average wilder the better this is fraught with danger tho simply because the variance can be higher than normal i prefer to grind out my profits on the slow docile tables. quote* there is always another day for poker it is not going anywhere the game will still be here tomorrow* basically if ya having a bad day switch of the pc come back the day after fresh thats the one i find the hardest.

[H1ghlander]

Re: Fixed Limit 10 handed game is for waiting ok if your multi tabling and are prepared to just play selected hands, 6 handed completely different game because premium hands dont come round as often you have to lower your starting hand requirement use a standard utg policy of AJ or above you still need powerhouse hands in these positions 6 handed very much suits an aggressive player not the game for passive players at all , once you get to mid position suited connectors are great pop in the odd reraise from late positions to create value and for in case you spring a flop Try the more fiesty games main reason for this you can limp in a lot more with big hands where players are ramming and jamming, its much easier to disguise your hand and get a decent pot out of it say for example a $1/$2 game with av pot of $5 is pitiful your playing rocks wheres as the same game with an AV of $12 or above is a game of gamblers exploit them for the weaknesses but contary to popular belief do not checkraise sure it puts in extra bets but it also has a negative effect you want players to relax just play cards not worry about being checkraised again by you in essence takes the fun out the game for them, your sending a signal to them you mean business which thus makes them play a little bit tighter A book i find helping with rationalizing logic if going onto a bad run is Zen the art of poker not really a book about strategy but certainly worth the investment it helps take away tilt factors for fixed limit holdem Sklansky has a book called holdem for advanced players 2nd edition Sklansky is probably one of the best authors on fixed limit I cannot comment on games on the Mansion software because i only play on Littlewoods so therefore dont know the players what you could do for quick reference instead of taking notes is simply grade the players on a scale of 1-10 .. 1 being poor 10 on rare exceptions for top class players or set it to personal preference upto you but once you have a player database built up it makes game selection much easier saves time on sweating up a game you can jump right in

[Stephen]

Re: Fixed Limit once you get to mid position suited connectors are great pop in the odd reraise from late positions to create value and for in case you spring a flop surely the best way to play suited connectors is the same as smaller pairs get in cheap ?

[H1ghlander]

Re: Fixed Limit yes but you have to raise it up every now and again so your game does not become predictable say you boost the pot with 78 and the flop comes 788 rainbow they sure as hell wont put you on anything close to 78 if anything the standard policy will be check call the big cards trying to outdrw you on the turn or river i'm not saying raise all the time with suited connectors just every now and then purist will shirk with horror at the next statement but personally i play as many hands as possible but not trash like 8-3, 7-4 etc etc hands with a modicum of playability

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Fixed Limit

purist will shirk with horror at the next statement but personally i play as many hands as possible but not trash like 8-3' date=' 7-4 etc etc hands with a modicum of playability[/quote'] Ive watched you play Omaha Hi-Lo 6 handed on Ladbrokes. I did notice you liked to mix it up a lot but very rarely got yourself in a really bad spot. Nick tons of small pots while everyone waits for the nuts to bust you, and then you get away super cheap. Was fun to watch :) I notice that Ladbrokes now offer the "Money Tree". Very similar to Prima rounders bit with a slightly softer structure in the opening levels. Whats the play like on those? Plenty of people playing them? Problem I had with ladders is after id built my tokens I struggled to get more than one final level game in a day outside of the weekends...

[H1ghlander]

Re: Fixed Limit very rarely play on Ladbrokes these days omaha hi-lo my preferred game became a rock garden even at the micro limits all the fish got fed up i guess i asked them to match the rakeback deal i was offered elsewhere surprisingly they said no so i said fair enough you dont want my 35k a year in rake i will go elsewhere it made financial sense to i have noticed the money tree tho looks same as ladders to be honest just different starting stake funny enough after my initial success on the ladders on ladbrokes i got bored not enough finals going each day

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Fixed Limit

so i said fair enough you dont want my 35k a year in rake i will go elsewhere it made financial sense to

Seems to be that a lot of these poker rooms don't particularly value customers. The ammount of rooms that have ripped me of (most notable truepoker and the VC rooms (Racing Post and The Sun) with deposit bonuses etc...makes you wonder if they think they can make a living with no customers?

after my initial success on the ladders on ladbrokes i got bored not enough finals going each day

Same as my complaint...