Struggling

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Struggling

Plus' date=' Id wager that the medium stack you were bullying didn't have AA...[/quote'] I folded AA in a tournament. Once Was down to 4 players I had about 4000 chips, the leader 4500, and the other two about 200 and 300. Blinds where at 150. Chip leader moved all in, and I folded aces. Needless to say I was near garaunteed 2nd place by folding as oppose to bubbling. As it turns out he woulda busted my aces as both low stacks called and he made some wierd ass straight.

[robilaruk]

Re: Struggling of course, hence my "i hope this doesn't sound too bad bit" - for expereinced players then play with a underfunded bankroll, but for those trying to progress jumping up too quickly can prove expensive (though it IS a great learning experience and I have found I concentrate more because of the cash at stake :)) (its tricky to put a tone on a post to the forum thats all :) ) maybe we (i.e. all of us) should write the "PL definitive guide to playing STT's"? to help newbies grope their way through the perils, pitfalls and profits! Damo

After all... isn't this a place where different opinions are welcome? quote]

[robilaruk]

Re: Struggling spot on fold every day of the week pick a better spot..... whats a better spot? well whenthe chip leader has folded, or you are ITM Damo

I folded AA in a tournament. Once Was down to 4 players I had about 4000 chips, the leader 4500, and the other two about 200 and 300. Blinds where at 150. Chip leader moved all in, and I folded aces. Needless to say I was near garaunteed 2nd place by folding as oppose to bubbling. As it turns out he woulda busted my aces as both low stacks called and he made some wierd ass straight.

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

(its tricky to put a tone on a post to the forum thats all :) ) maybe we (i.e. all of us) should write the "PL definitive guide to playing STT's"? to help newbies grope their way through the perils, pitfalls and profits! Damo No worries :ok ... Took it for nothing but a good discussion... :) Good idea about that "definite guide"... I'll write 1 chapter... "How to waste all your money... or get rich... QUICK" :lol

[PokerBarney]

Re: Struggling

I folded AA in a tournament. Once Was down to 4 players I had about 4000 chips, the leader 4500, and the other two about 200 and 300. Blinds where at 150. Chip leader moved all in, and I folded aces. Needless to say I was near garaunteed 2nd place by folding as oppose to bubbling. As it turns out he woulda busted my aces as both low stacks called and he made some wierd ass straight.

Are you lot mental? A fold every day of the week?! Situation 1: You fold, big stack wins, you're 2/2 with a stack of 4K against CL's 5K. Situation 2: You call, and win, you're 1/2 with a stack of 8.5K against opp's 500. Situation 3: You call, and lose to CL, you're out 2nd (since shorties are shorter than you). Situation 4: You call, and shorty wins, you take the side pot and double up to 8K. I would beat them all into the pot every single time. Although it would depend on the type of tourney... in an STT I push. In an MTT I push. In a satellite with last 2 of 4 paying, I fold. But I'd have to slap myself in the face as I did it. EDIT: Either of you guys want to play HU? Now I know you're folding AA if I push all in... :)

[slapdash]

Re: Struggling Sounds from Damo's post that the short stacks called after he folded. I presume that if he'd called then they'd have folded, unless they were mental.

[PokerBarney]

Re: Struggling Even better. If they fold you're HU with him. You'd fold the best starting hand and an 82% HU chance? Playing scared of the bubble before it's even there. Wow.

[Cloud]

Re: Struggling I've got to agree with Barney - in that scenario there is absolutely no way you should fold. In fact I'd definately call with AK, KK, QQ, and probably call with AQ, AJ and any high pair. The tournie is begging to be won with AA.

[Valiant23]

Re: Struggling Wow, someone makes an honest post saying he folded AA pre-flop and he gets called mental... nice. :sad

[PokerBarney]

Re: Struggling As further proof of why you should call this every time, consider some maths. Firstly, consider if you call and the shorties fold. Assuming that you win, you will have 26xBB against three short stacks who will have

[Valiant23]

Re: Struggling Noooooooooo problem, sorry. :ok My argument (as devil's advocate only), can only be that poker isn't just about the cards or the maths involved. Sometimes it can be the scenario or recent past experience. Maybe Dave just didn't like the look of the situation and decided he didn't need to be involved. You see, you forgot situation 5: He calls, shorty wins main pot, and CL wins side pot, leaving you on your ass. Thats the wonderful thing about this game. It grabs probablility by the bollocks and throws him ass over tit just when you don't need it, whilst keeping lady luck out of the way by sending her to cook him dinner.

[PokerBarney]

Re: Struggling It's fair enough that he might decide not to be involved, but statistically it's a favourable situation. It's one of the better situations to be involved in, when you know it's +EV. And yes, poker isn't just about maths and cards, it's about players and psychology as well. But a lot is about the maths. Deciding whether a certain play is profitable in a certain situation depends a lot on statistics and probability. Situation 5 is mighty unlikely. And although it might happen every now and then (like my Ako vs Runadrum's AKo where I lost), you can't play always being scared of straight flushes and the like. It might lower your average profits in the examples above by 0.5 or less, but the difference is negligable. Winning poker is about the long run, and making these calls is undoubtedly a good thing in the long run.

[Valiant23]

Re: Struggling Totally agree about the 'long run' view, but where I think we're differing (only very very slightly) is that I'm looking at it in abstract (short term with possible mitigating circumstances), and you've giving the absolute spot on correct advice. On the subject of AA (my chance to gloat). I was low stack in an STT and had it twice two hands running. :nana

[AJ]

Re: Struggling Folding AA is the correct thing to do here, in terms of this STT. I'd tend to fold it because a push here shows the CL is a weak player, a push at this stage is stupid, the correct raise from him, regardless of what he has is 300 chips (enough to put the 2 shorties all in), you call it and then you both check to the river. Then play HU with first and second assured between you. This bad play tells me the CL isn't a good player, is overly reckless and calls too much. I'd fancy my chances against him heads up, no worries. Agaisnt a stronger player, and with a eye to the long term, you shoul call it; the +EV is very high and winning the hand garuntees a tournement win. This is one of the times when tourney play is very different from a ring game; survival is more important than a very pos EV. If situation 5 happens, then it's nh, gg and fire up another one.

[PAULM03]

Re: Struggling

Folding AA is the correct thing to do here' date=' in terms of [i']this STT. I'd tend to fold it because a push here shows the CL is a weak player, a push at this stage is stupid, the correct raise from him, regardless of what he has is 300 chips (enough to put the 2 shorties all in), you call it and then you both check to the river. Then play HU with first and second assured between you. This bad play tells me the CL isn't a good player, is overly reckless and calls too much. I'd fancy my chances against him heads up, no worries. Agaisnt a stronger player, and with a eye to the long term, you shoul call it; the +EV is very high and winning the hand garuntees a tournement win. This is one of the times when tourney play is very different from a ring game; survival is more important than a very pos EV. If situation 5 happens, then it's nh, gg and fire up another one.

I agree with this. I'd fold AA here. As has been said STT is about survival to the money. Once you're in the money it's a whole different ball game.

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

Wow, someone makes an honest post saying he folded AA pre-flop and he gets called mental... nice. :sad

Yeah, Afterall... AA is JUST top pair... :unsure I would fold AA too if it meant I wasn't sure of getting in the money... against bigstack and 2 very low stacks just waiting for us to have a fight... no way...

[PokerBarney]

Re: Struggling " I'd tend to fold it because a push here shows the CL is a weak player, a push at this stage is stupid" - all the more reason to call, because he's probably shoving junk, or a large pair (I've seen donks open push 20-30xBB with QQ/KK/AA...), and you're a huge favourite. Perhaps I'm too entrenched in MTT play - I play to win, not to scrape into the money. Survival is important, but surely a win is worth more than several scrapings? Is it that STT payout structures are much flatter than MTTs, so it doesn't necessarily matter where you cash, as long as you do?

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

Oooooh, but STT's are no way near the same as MTT's ... I play to win them too...and not just scrabe into the money... But STT's are about survival untill 3 left... NOTHING else. 2 completely different strategies!!!

[AJ]

Re: Struggling

Survival is important, but surely a win is worth more than several scrapings? Is it that STT payout structures are much flatter than MTTs, so it doesn't necessarily matter where you cash, as long as you do?

By folding there you get ITM, then you play for the win. For me an STT has a several distinct phases. Early, I play nothing but top ten hands, even this I'll fold to a dangerous looking board. Middle, We start losing people, blinds are 75/150 100/200. I start doing the occasional blind steal in late position, I'll limp some hands to see if I can catch a flop. If I go into a hand I go to win, a good flop where I think i'm ahead I'll raise 5xBB, but always maintan my FE. Bubble Tighten a bit, play good hands only, I' expect to have something like 15 x BB at this point. Again play position and blind steal to maintain my chip stack, not really looking to grow my chips here. May push hard with a made hand, like trips on a board without flush or str8 potential. but always have FE to walk away from a hand. ITM I play LAG, raise or fold, if reraised push. Go hard for first place. At this stage you should never call, if you're calling you're likely behind in the hand and shouldn't be in it.

[Masterplan]

Re: Struggling

Oooooh, but STT's are no way near the same as MTT's ... I play to win them too...and not just scrabe into the money... But STT's are about survival untill 3 left... NOTHING else. 2 completely different strategies!!!

i agree to a point. for me stt's are survival till the bubble(4 left for my usual). from that point onits very easy to pick up chips by raising roughly 1 in 6 regardless of how strong your hand is. AA ... i have never and will never ... ever fold preflop.

[Cloud]

Re: Struggling I am surprised by this thread - my STT play strategy seems a bit out of line with some other players. With 4 players left - that's the time I'm at my most aggressive. Other players just don't want to call you - and it's a great time to pick up chips. Most of my wins are set up at this stage - go into the final three as chip leader - and life is easier at that stage. Occasionally I bubble, but when down to the final 4 - I finish in the money around 85% of the time - so it works for me.

[Valiant23]

Re: Struggling

By folding there you get ITM, then you play for the win. For me an STT has a several distinct phases. Early, I play nothing but top ten hands, even this I'll fold to a dangerous looking board. Middle, We start losing people, blinds are 75/150 100/200. I start doing the occasional blind steal in late position, I'll limp some hands to see if I can catch a flop. If I go into a hand I go to win, a good flop where I think i'm ahead I'll raise 5xBB, but always maintan my FE. Bubble Tighten a bit, play good hands only, I' expect to have something like 15 x BB at this point. Again play position and blind steal to maintain my chip stack, not really looking to grow my chips here. May push hard with a made hand, like trips on a board without flush or str8 potential. but always have FE to walk away from a hand. ITM I play LAG, raise or fold, if reraised push. Go hard for first place. At this stage you should never call, if you're calling you're likely behind in the hand and shouldn't be in it.

For me thats pretty much spot-on, except HU/ITM. That is when I try and use my perceived image to my advantage. I also try and take the completely opposite stance of my opponent. Until I am controlling about 66% of the chips. Then we play by my rules. ;) Cloud, I understand your strategy, and see it a lot. If it works for you then great!:ok

[Masterplan]

Re: Struggling

For me thats pretty much spot-on, except HU/ITM. That is when I try and use my perceived image to my advantage. I also try and take the completely opposite stance of my opponent. Until I am controlling about 66% of the chips. Then we play by my rules. ;) Cloud, I understand your strategy, and see it a lot. If it works for you then great!:ok

this is why i'm always more aggessive on the bubble, i want half the chips in the table going into ITM. i've got a good pic of an exceptional bubble position lead i had in a game yesterday around somewhere, i'll post it soon :)

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Struggling

Are you lot mental?

More often than not yes - hence my Poker Name of "Muddle"

Situation 3: You call, and lose to CL, you're out 2nd (since shorties are shorter than you).

Absoloutly agree if the shorties were in the call becomes more correct. However I should probably clarify the situation a little further. This was a preflop all in by the BigStack and the Shorties were to act after me. Had I called they no doubt would have folded hoping to seem me busted or the chip leader crippled just as badly as them. Its a pretty unique situation to be honest and had the chip stakes been more level I would have called in a heartbeat. Had we been down to 3 already I would have called easily as well.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Struggling

You see, you forgot situation 5: He calls, shorty wins main pot, and CL wins side pot, leaving you on your ass.

Indeed. My logic was that even though there is a good chance I will end up with all the chips going into 3 way, there is still a 20% chance that aces get cracked to an under pair. As it stood it looked like by folded I get heads up with a player even stacked. A player I felt I could beat My own personal experience with STT is that if I play for third, then play to win I do better than if i attempt to go for the top spot everytime. Of course had this mean a ladders/rounders/sattelite the fold becomes even more clear cut as the prizes are equal. When third is as good as first why even risk 4th when your so likely to get it by folding?

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Struggling

Perhaps I'm too entrenched in MTT play - I play to win, not to scrape into the money. Survival is important, but surely a win is worth more than several scrapings? Is it that STT payout structures are much flatter than MTTs, so it doesn't necessarily matter where you cash, as long as you do?

MTT's are a different kettle of fish as going out on the bubble usually means missing out on a prize barely above your buy in. You absoloutly should be going for the final table, and indeed the win. As you say STT are much flatter with prizes at 50%, 30% and 20% of the pool. Initally you want to be getting 3rd to double your money, and then you should be absoloutle fearless in going out because after youve doubled your money all the +EV is in getting the top spot.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Struggling

For me an STT has a several distinct phases.

Seems you take a similar view to me. Looks like im not completely alone at least :D

[Masterplan]

Re: Struggling

Indeed. My logic was that even though there is a good chance I will end up with all the chips going into 3 way, there is still a 20% chance that aces get cracked to an under pair. As it stood it looked like by folded I get heads up with a player even stacked. A player I felt I could beat My own personal experience with STT is that if I play for third, then play to win I do better than if i attempt to go for the top spot everytime. Of course had this mean a ladders/rounders/sattelite the fold becomes even more clear cut as the prizes are equal. When third is as good as first why even risk 4th when your so likely to get it by folding?

i can understand you thinking ... but it seems that its a very defeatist attitude to the play. in my personal experience if i worry about getting beat then i dont play agressively enough. its like the cup half empty/half full analogy. instead of thinking what hands am i beating(all of them with AA) you'er thinking ... what is going to beat me (anything, jsut not very likely)

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Struggling

instead of thinking what hands am i beating(all of them with AA) you'er thinking ... what is going to beat me (anything' date=' jsut not very likely)[/quote'] Well I knew I had the best hand. Obviously as you say. The key point is that by calling all in before the flop I abandon my fate to chance. Now I am by no means a great player, but I do like to think Ive got some game. The guy I was likely to end heads up with was pretty weak to be honest, and was playing a pretty predictable "all in" strategy. I was fairly confident that once I was heads up with him I would be able to limp the small blind knowing hes only going to raise a monster in which case i can fold, and knowing that he will fold repeadedly on the flop if i make a minimum bet and he has no part of it. And sure enough thats actually how it went down. I folded the two low stacks called. His JJ made the straight to see us heads up and a proceeded to whittle him away with small stabs at unraised pots on the flop. He eventually cracked at 1500 chips vs 8500 blinds at 200 moving all in with A2o against my pair 7's. The Ace didnt come and I took first. Had I called I would have busted on the bubble. In summary if you think you can out play someone heads up, then why risk your tournament life (however much a favourite) in one throw of the dice.

[PokerBarney]

Re: Struggling " The key point is that by calling all in before the flop I abandon my fate to chance." - How about this: He min-raises, you call, shorties fold. You flop top pair with a flush draw, but he has overcards. Again, you're 80% favourite.. do you call his all in now? "In summary if you think you can out play someone heads up, then why risk your tournament life (however much a favourite) in one throw of the dice." Because you'll be doing it HU eventually, and I'd rather go in with this very favourable situation, instead of Ax vs 77. You're trying to avoid chance, but obviously you can't avoid it completely in poker. You could get your money in with the best hand every time and still lose to this guy. I can see how you'd want to avoid this sort of thing, but it's very much a results-oriented view of the hand. I still think it is a profitable call in the long run. In this situation you may have lost, but generally it would make the job of winning much easier. Maybe this is why I don't play STTs. :)