Chewie2000 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling One other thing is different sites play totally different. Played a $10 Rebuy on 770 last night and it was tight as u like (suprising for a rebuy) where as Stars would be an ALL -in festival. I moved away from stars as the quality had gone right down hill from $5 all the way up to $50. I'm back againbut I either play their MTT's or 18 / 27 seaters. My fav STT' sites at the mo are Poker770 (they've got the cracking Jackpot ones.. win 5 in a row and get $22K or $200 if u 1st/2nf 5 times in a row).. Ive got two in a row at mo so :hope Poker.co.uk is gr8 ... good grind poker and u will make the money on $5/$10/$20. I did a $20 by accident and never looked back. And I do play stars sometime but only 18 and above or a bit of filth with a Omaha 8 STT :ok The only other thing, which is totally my own feeling, is if you want to do well in STT's and MTT's , stay away from the cash tables, it destroys my game very very quickly and I find swapping between the two can become stressful. Other people may be different but if your monitoring your roi etc. closely the affect on these can be quite suprising if you've gone to the cash tables for an hour or so. slaters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerBarney Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Ive been playing 5 seat 2.50+0.50 on Pacific, and it's very hard to maintain a profit because of the monkeys that play on there. Variance comes into effect so much more because of terrible play. I was having an argument with some goon on Stars about how the site wasn't rigged. He claimed that Stars are scripting the flops so that you see so many terrible beats at the lower levels, because it encourages play. Obviously it's rubbish, but he couldn't understand that worse players will stick in their money when they're miles behind, giving more opportunity for bad beats to happen. I hope I can make a decent profit off these STTs (all I want to do is cash out and move somewhere else!), since I'm liking Pacific less and less. Starting with 800 chips and 10/20 blinds up every 8 minutes is not a good structure. Top 3 pay, but 3rd is less than the buy in. The 10 seaters are much better value, but the 5s are easier to win (I'm at ~40% win). I want to move onto playing $10 5 seats on Boss.. especially PokerHeaven. The TV tables display some truly shocking players. Free money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling A very interesting thread. I do think playing at differing levels is a matter of fear and/or confidence. If I play $10 games I play exactly how i want - no nerves, and I do quite well. At a $20 or $50 game, my game is basically the same, but yes, I feel more nervous at the end. If I'm struggling at the $10 level, and the blinds are big - as long as I'm first in I'll go all-in with virtually anything - and do it without any hesitation. At $20 or $50 level I do find that around the bubble I might try more to just make the money - which I usually find has the opposite effect. In my situation - I have a young child and another one on the way, and I really don't want to my poker to cost me any money ever again - and playing to my bankroll enables me to do this - and even take some money out sometimes. However I think everyone has to play the way that feels right for them - to be honest bankroll building is a bit monotonous, but every win takes me one game closer to moving up and MTT's and leagues on here add a bit of variety and the odd quick cash injection - so that is what works for me - but I do understand when Penelopeys says try the $50 games - because that is what workes for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mardell Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling One thing that made me smile a lot in this thread (as it reminded me of myself about a year ago) is the notion that your more likely to win by playing against superior oppenents. I wonder how many people would be prepared to play the $20 and $50 games on a weekly basis if those tables were populated by previous WSOP winners. Not many id wager? Ive lost count of the times ive busted out to sheer bewildering calls. I am fully aware that Ive made a hell of a lot more than ive lost over the long haul though. There is nothing quite like moving all in $1500 into a $60 pot on a 3-hearts flop with the AQ hearts only to be called by some guy with the bare king of hearts, now drawing dead for all his money. Plus as well as a giggle, you usually end up being the new chimp leader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Whilst I understand Pene's point of view, it would be impossible for 2Damn to play a $50 STT, for the same reason it's impossible for me too. That $50 can buy (him) a pack of nappies, or a treat for his children or wife (he may even think that this could buy him a lapdance with her :tongue2). He will be thinking of this at some point during the STT, and be completely unable to play without fear! That, for me is crucial. Almost as important as the way he plays. Okay... I better make my self absolutely clear :loon Everything I have said so far still goes... for me! BUT... The absolute first rule of playing online poker is: NEVER MIX PERSONAL FINANCES WITH POKER BANKROLL! Of course playing stt's at a higher level should NEVER make you struggle buying nappies... or treat your wife... or whatever you fancy. As I said earlier... the figures in my bankroll are merely figures, and will NEVER interfere with my daily finances... untill I withdraw, that is... And now... I will shut up... :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling One thing that made me smile a lot in this thread (as it reminded me of myself about a year ago) is the notion that your more likely to win by playing against superior oppenents. I wonder how many people would be prepared to play the $20 and $50 games on a weekly basis if those tables were populated by previous WSOP winners. Not many id wager? Okay... too early I promised to shut up... sorry... last one... :loon See... the PL's ARE the superior opponents... and my point: We want to play against decent players, because it is easier to win... and you won't get bad beats by muppets... AND... I seriously doubt that $ 20 and $ 50 tables are populated by previous WSOP winners... if so... I am buying in this year while I'm there :loon Anyway... just wanted to post how I make my steady poker winnings... and it is NOT in the $ 3, 5 or 10 buy ins... tried that...didn't work... for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Whilst I understand Pene's point of view, it would be impossible for 2Damn to play a $50 STT, for the same reason it's impossible for me too. Yes, Mrs.Hype would soon be getting them boltcutters out if she found him spending $50 on a poker game!!! :$ :$ :loon It'll swing in your favour eventually 2damn. Just read the second harrington book I lent you for some tips ;) :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling I'll add my tuppence worth if no-one minds! Of all the tables I play and I've paid up to the $50 tables that have been mentioned, the hardest tables to win on are the Punters Lounge League Games! :loon Maybe it's just me, but I find the standard everywhere else is lower than these games. TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Sorry Pene like I said before I wasn't criticising your choices at all, but I was stressing the fear factor rather than the financial factor. :ok 2Damn stated that like a lot of us he is only playing with winnings already, and not using his own finances (which I would recommend to anyone, anywhere). I think that for most the choice of level of buy-in is dictated by there bank-roll. I still play at $5 on BM because I have enough buy-ins at that level to absorb (almost) any adverse variance......touch wood.:hope If not, then I'll just have to rebuild my roll through the freerolls..... I think I'm playing at my level in those anyway.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling I'll add my tuppence worth if no-one minds! Of all the tables I play and I've paid up to the $50 tables that have been mentioned, the hardest tables to win on are the Punters Lounge League Games! :loon Maybe it's just me, but I find the standard everywhere else is lower that these games. TQMHmmm, and I think Hyperman did okay last night playing with this exalted bunch.;) I agree too btw T... I learnt a hell of a lot off you all in a very short space of time.:clap :notworthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mardell Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling See... the PL's ARE the superior opponents... and my point: Well - me Im a fish. Too long away. Everyone doing so well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Well - me Im a fish. Too long away. Everyone doing so well! Somehow I don't believe that ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Hmm this is a good thread. I know what you mean about whether or not to play £10 / £20 games where the comfort zone is breached but it's probably more rewarding in the long run...you can bluff good players etc less likely to be called by a muppet....or play in the £3 / £5 where it's very comfortable but probably not so rewarding due to more idiots playing for a laugh rather than a serious gain. The one thing I would say which hasn't been mentioned is TILT. It is very easy after a run of bad finishing positions to think oh sod it I'll move up a gear to a higher level and still play badly at that level because of what's gone before. Or.. immediatley pile straight back into another game and lose all discipline and start playing like the other muppets sat around you, grabbing a beer from the fridge and going all in with your 33 first hand etc... My worst losing run is 12, and a good friend of mine came 4th EIGHT times in a row...can you imagine??!? When you start to get angry with the game then you'll most probably end up losing. Take a break, go and watch an episode of Alan Partridge or read a book and approach your next game clear-minded and ready for action. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Also as has already been touched on...bank roll - should be kept separate from all other betting activity (horses football etc) and not be needed to fund bills etc... should be money that is not required. I like to have 20-25 "lives" so account for 25 - 30 x your tournie stake as your bankroll. ie $10 games requires a bankroll of minimum $250 but that's just me.... :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Hmm this is a good thread. I know what you mean about whether or not to play £10 / £20 games where the comfort zone is breached but it's probably more rewarding in the long run...you can bluff good players etc less likely to be called by a muppet....or play in the £3 / £5 where it's very comfortable but probably not so rewarding due to more idiots playing for a laugh rather than a serious gain. The one thing I would say which hasn't been mentioned is TILT. It is very easy after a run of bad finishing positions to think oh sod it I'll move up a gear to a higher level and still play badly at that level because of what's gone before. Or.. immediatley pile straight back into another game and lose all discipline and start playing like the other muppets sat around you, grabbing a beer from the fridge and going all in with your 33 first hand etc... My worst losing run is 12, and a good friend of mine came 4th EIGHT times in a row...can you imagine??!? When you start to get angry with the game then you'll most probably end up losing. Take a break, go and watch an episode of Alan Partridge or read a book and approach your next game clear-minded and ready for action. Good luck I'd rather come 4th again:lol :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling We want to play against decent players, because it is easier to win... and you won't get bad beats by muppets... Really can't agree with this. I think this is to do with selective memory, people remember the unusal, and forget the mundane. If bad players make poor calls, then long term you'll win. The numbers don't lie. Sure from time to time you'll lose a hand where yuo're 10 to 1 fav. But that also means over time you'll win 9 of them. Play tight, retain your disiplince and poor players are to be welcomed. Just don't get bored at the table, and feel you've got to "do something" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerBarney Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Bad beats happen more often and lower levels, because players put their chips in when they're miles behind more often. The beats that happen at higher levels are marginal, so don't count as "bad". Re-re-raising all in with a flush draw and two undercards is not something you'd see a decent player do, so the suck out doesn't happen (I know it's not that much of a suckout, but if you take pot odds into account, the drawer had no business being in the hand). Playing against good opponents is easier because you have more idea of what they're doing, and they don't do stupid things and get rewarded for them. And while the numbers don't lie, they don't take into account stack sizes, tournament position and so on. While I don't mind taking a bad beat when the beater has 10% of my chips, I sure as hell care when it knocks me out of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Playing against good opponents is easier because you have more idea of what they're doing, and they don't do stupid things and get rewarded for them. Perhaps is absoulte terms yes, you may get bad beated slightly more times a day. But in real terms, you'll win 90%+ of the times that the muppets push in. If you're huge fav when the money goes in, and you lose, don't get upset, it happens, it's math. Over the long term you'll make enough cash to buy a yacht. I love the poor players that make the crazy calls, they paid for my holiday. It's like offering an even money bet, and giving him a bag with nine white balls and 1 black, tell hm to close his eyes and pick one, he wins if he hits black. It's a crazy mug bet, that no sane person should make, but people call at these odds in poker everyday. It can piss you off if he hits the black, sometime 2 or 3 times in a row, but long term I'd offer this bet all day and night. A long term player (2000+ stts) should welcome these people, because over time, you'll make a fortune agaisnt them. Short term, they can be annoying I know, but it's all about your goals I guess. As I come from a sports betting background, I may have a different slant on this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Really can't agree with this. I think this is to do with selective memory, people remember the unusal, and forget the mundane. If bad players make poor calls, then long term you'll win As I said earlier... I don't do long term... I do profit :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masterplan Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling i enjoy knoing when sit down at a table with muppets that i should win it, i know that with any stack size going into the final 3 that unless i get unlucky i will win it because my final 4 play in stts is so strong against them. if i had to play against decent tag players the tactics i've developed wouldnt work and my roi would be even worse than it is atm (24.9%):/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling Slightly off-topic - sorry 2Damn... This is only a snapshot, but I wanted an opportunity to play at higher buy-ins, to test the water... So I used my freeroll winnings on Stan James to play the STT's... Basically if I got ITM I went up a level, if not I go back down. Firstly I played and won a $5, then a $10... Just playing on a $20, the amount of bad play and 'bad beats' was truly shocking. To say this is representative of this level is wrong I know, and it won't affect me when I go back up. I went out in 5th, and I'm so back on the $10. I think my point here is that ther is such a thing as 'richer muppets'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Re: Struggling I think my point here is that ther is such a thing as 'richer muppets'. Sure are.... ME :loon :nana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2damnhype Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 Re: Struggling Thanks for all taking the time to reply guys and gal, and really happy that it has led to some good discussion rather than just cries of MUPPET :lol I probably won't have the opportunity to play again until Friday night anyhow, and will respond properly then. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Re: Struggling Best to play games if you have the bankroll to play them - this has been discussed a few times and a ball park figure is around 50 buy-ins (some say 30, others 100). Please don't play higher buy-ins just because muppets are outdrawing you - if you can't afford it, then you will go broke (I amde a post about my STT progression awhile ago - have a search and see what happened to me ;)) re muppets - you get muppets at every level and people value betting, though you do tend to have less callers when you see raise, re-raise and you shove your ACES - you will prolly end up with one caller at a $20+ buy in rather than 4 at a $5 buy in....... Damo which stakes are you playing?? I know for a fact that you WILL get more bad beats when you play low stakes... because more muppets are in them and they will call everything with crap hands and often get lucky. Therefore, play higher stakes!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Re: Struggling you want to bet? I have made that move before against a medium stack when I have the massive satck when there is a a real shorty on the table and its bubble time - the medium stack panics and throws their hand away to get ITM (just like i throw my hand aay when i am the medium stack and get bullied :)) people do it all the time - that IS good play in the right situation Damo The beats that happen at higher levels are marginal, so don't count as "bad". Re-re-raising all in with a flush draw and two undercards is not something you'd see a decent player do, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Re: Struggling Isn't poker just a fabulous game... :nana :nana There are soooooo many ways to either win or lose :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Re: Struggling I think what you have achieved is great Pene and I have a lot of respect for you as a poker player - in fact you are one of the best I have played aginst in a variety of games since being here (so much so that I hate seeing you on my table LOL) however this is a REALLY bad post regardless of your confidence in your play, no one should ever play the $55's buy-in with only 4 'lives' - it might be ok if you are a world class player, but a novice reading this will think it is easy to do - it is not and I think that should be emphasised - someone new to the game can go broke following this line of thinking, and we should be encouraging people and giving sensible advice, not posting a 'lucky story', thought you are not lucky but a good player who understood what you are doing and how to play to get ITM (sorry if this sounds harsh, it is not meant to be) I just don't want a newbie reading this and burning their $200 bankroll thinking they can beat the $55's (or $22/$33) because you get more chips and the play is 'better' than at the $5.50 and $11's Damo But I must still say. My bankroll HAVE been down to $ 200 at one point... and I kept on playing the $ 50... because I knew there was no way I wouldnt reach the money in 4 games, playing my usual strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Re: Struggling I think what you have achieved is great Pene and I have a lot of respect for you as a poker player - in fact you are one of the best I have played aginst in a variety of games since being here (so much so that I hate seeing you on my table LOL) however this is a REALLY bad post regardless of your confidence in your play, no one should ever play the $55's buy-in with only 4 'lives' - it might be ok if you are a world class player, but a novice reading this will think it is easy to do - it is not and I think that should be emphasised - someone new to the game can go broke following this line of thinking, and we should be encouraging people and giving sensible advice, not posting a 'lucky story', thought you are not lucky but a good player who understood what you are doing and how to play to get ITM (sorry if this sounds harsh, it is not meant to be) I just don't want a newbie reading this and burning their $200 bankroll thinking they can beat the $55's (or $22/$33) because you get more chips and the play is 'better' than at the $5.50 and $11's Damo He he, we all have bad days :loon However... I will post my advice, how I do things in the online poker world... regardless of who is reading the posts. I would assume all are growns ups and capable of making their own sound decisions based on all the posts in this thread!!! Not just based on my bad advice :ok See you at a table near you soon :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Re: Struggling After all... isn't this a place where different opinions are welcome? And it lets people pick and choose among different advice... Like being in a candy store :loon Have the ones you like... and the ones you don't like... leave them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerBarney Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Re: Struggling Damo - "you want to bet? I have made that move before against a medium stack when I have the massive satck when there is a a real shorty on the table and its bubble time - the medium stack panics and throws their hand away to get ITM (just like i throw my hand aay when i am the medium stack and get bullied :)) people do it all the time - that IS good play in the right situation" I agree, in the RIGHT situation it's a great play to make. This guy chose entirely the WRONG situation to do it, and didn't do it for the right reasons. Plus, Id wager that the medium stack you were bullying didn't have AA... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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