AJ Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Got thinking about this recently, as I found myself doing it a few times, when you're playing a STT and someone goes all in, early rounds, either pre flop or at the flop, is it a sign of a strong player or a weak player. I used to think it was a bold strong move, but I now think it shows bombastic empty fear, and is a clear indication of a weak player. If you have a good pocket pair, then surely it's better to see the flop at least, before committing yourself, afterall three 2's will beat a pair of aces. Even all in at the flop with a made hand is a sign of weakness imho, it doesn't extract the value, 95% of times people will fold and you'll scoop a very small pot. For me the only time to go all in, is with a strong made hand, if I'm reraised I'm coming to the conculsion, that "all in" can indicate a slight lack of confidence in their hands, where they don't have the balls to take it to the river and extract proper value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? It's a very weak play - and I can't understand it. If you play a hand you want to extract as much as you can out of it - and if you're scared of someone taking you on, don't get involved in the first place. HOWEVER...there are two scenarios where I'll go all-in early - both with monster hands. a) The very first hand in low stakes STT's. I've been called enough times to make it amazingly profitable. b) I have an awful table image - and have just been caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? Agree about the very first hand, I played a $5 STT on virgin a couple of weeks back, got AA first hand, went all in, got 2 callers, floped a third ace, and went on to a very easy win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULM03 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? What about in the latter stages when the blinds are a considerable proportion of your stack? Surewly in this situation the best way to get value is to shove? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? All depends what you've got and what he's got left I suppose. I guess the question is, when you shove all in, do you want a call ? I think that 90% of the time on lower value STT's, people don't want the call. They have a good hand, but don't try and extract max value from it, due to fear someone will draw a flush / straight etc. I've done it myself, scopped up 300 chips in blinds with a good pocket pair, when I could have played it for much more. But playing the hand out brings more reward, i think people don't do it, because they remember the time that someone caught a flush on the river to beat their AAA, and they think better safe than sorry, they scare off people drawing at the pot, despite the maths saying they'll win the vast majority of the larger pots. To me it's a fear thing, and the sign of a poor player. I'm trying hard not to do it myself. I only go all in if I really want the call Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? It CAN be a way of leading people on... to think you're a loose muppet... when you're really not... They will definitely call your great hands later on... ESPECIALLY good in STT's... :ok So... I don't agree that it's necessarily weak play... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? What about in the latter stages when the blinds are a considerable proportion of your stack? Surewly in this situation the best way to get value is to shove? Fools did specify in the early stages :ok Generally, has to be a weak player - HOWEVER the stronger players can take advantage of how an all in for little reward is perceived by their opponents...... Agree - if you have AA in first hand, can be very profitable to shove ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lou saban Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? most of the time i would say it was a weak player , what is the point in going all in with a strong pocket pair if everyone is going to fold and you just take the blinds (which arent really worth stealing in the early stages anyway) but i also think the price of buy in makes a difference, in lower limit stt you get a lot of muppets going all in in the first few hands to double up early on (pretty much like a freeroll) but not so much in higher buy ins. i have been unfortunate enough to get high pocket pairs in the first few hands and put in a decent raise only to be re raised all in by someone who hasnt got a pair or a card higher than a bloomin 7 and i lose, personally , i would rather get dealt trash in the early stages so i can fold and just watch the other players and see how the table is going to play out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 17, 2006 Author Share Posted July 17, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? playing a game now, first hand, guy goes all in with 66, gets called by AK suited, and catches a 6 on the river to win. And someone says wp. 3 of us left, I'm on 1000 chips, never played a hand, other 2 on about 3500 each, they both go all in with crap, I'm ITM and I've not played a hand, although I'm 6 to 1 down in chips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mardell Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? So... I don't agree that it's necessarily weak play... Indeed. Like every pker conundrum the answer is always "it depends". So much relies on the situation. Using STT SNG's and an example. If the blind are curently 200 and you have 1000 then making a 3xBB raise to 600 is going to leave you pot commited anyway. YOu know you have to move the rest in if you miss. Why give yourself a chance to change your mind after a scary flop - get it all in. Like wise in the early stages of a SNG when the blinds are low pretty much any "sensible" raise you make relative to the blinds is still a small ammount relative to the chip stacks and if you've got Aces your going to get called in four places and your going to get outdrawn. Id be inclined to hump it all in and see if anyone is daft enough to call with AK. Youd be supprised how often they do :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mardell Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? Another thing that occurs to me: In poker, as in life, the strong prey on the weak. However good a player you are, there is alway someone better. Now in a cash game if you find that your simply outclassed you can simply get up and find a softer table. However in a tournament if you know you simply cant outplay the people your sat with your pretty much stuck for the duration. When you find yourself in that situation you have almost no chance to win if you "play". You pretty much have to let the cards do the talking. Ive been there myself and by adopting a selective all in strategy for that particular STT Ive managed to scrape 3rd where id given myslef almost no chance to win at the outset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? It's a lot to do with the board. People are more likely to push on semi-bluffs (open ended, flush draw, overcards etc) so if the board's straightening or flushing that's a likely holding, conversely people push on top pair, bottom two etc when the boards on the make to shut out draws. If someone pushes on a random useless looking board, especially with not much already in the pot, that's when you should worry that they have a legitimate big hand. And as has been said it can go both ways, if you push with big hands you don't have to be called that often, you can get called a lot less, and still have bigger +EV. Again you can normally get a read on that from the board, if someones doing it without a conceivable hand that they'd either be looking to protect or semibluff at, they either have the goods or are totally clueless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Re: STT - All in Strong or Weak ?? the only time i ever go all in early on is when i've built a large pot pre flop with a high pp (but not aces)and the flop comes down raggy ,just incase a ace follows on the turn or river . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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