Dumbass.............or Typical Heads Up

[Valiant23]

Ok - a brief history. Tigerwing was on his arse when there were 7 players left and needed a miracle run of cards to stay alive - which he got. Him and Dacey were having a "my A-kicker is bigger than your A-kicker" contest while I was picking up what I could. Going into heads up I was a 2:1 underdog and needed my best game to have any chance. I clawed it back once to about 50:50 and then lost it to a straight that I bet into (I had a low pair :eyes). So I had bluffed a lot of pots, including some of his raises with an A on the flop when I had nada.

------HAND 5------ Game #2224202114: Hold'em NL (4000/8000) - 2006/05/01 - 22:36:13 (GMT) Table "PP Grand Prix 2471082 - 1" Seat 9 is the button. Seat 8: Valiant23 (78680 in chips) Seat 9: tigerwing (80880 in chips) tigerwing: posts the ante 1000 Valiant23: posts the ante 1000 tigerwing: posts small blind 4000 Valiant23: posts big blind 8000 ----- HOLE CARDS ----- dealt to Valiant23 [Qs Js] tigerwing: raises to 24000 Valiant23: calls 16000 ----- FLOP ----- [Kc 9s Ac] Valiant23: bets 16000 tigerwing: calls 16000 ----- TURN ----- [Kc 9s Ac][3s] Valiant23: bets 16000 tigerwing: calls 16000 ----- RIVER ----- [Kc 9s Ac 3s][Jh] Valiant23: bets 21680 and is all-in tigerwing: calls 21680 ----- SHOW DOWN ----- Valiant23: shows [Qs Js] (A Pair of Jacks, Ace high) tigerwing: shows [7h Ah] (A Pair of Aces, King high) tigerwing collects 157360 from Main pot ----- SUMMARY ----- Total pot 157360 Main pot 157360 Rake 0 Board [Kc 9s Ac 3s Jh] Seat 8: Valiant23 (big blind) showed [Qs Js] and lost Seat 9: tigerwing (small blind) showed [7h Ah] and won (157360) with A Pair of Aces, King high

So - apart from losing, what did I do wrong? As I get some input I'll try and explain what was going on in my head. :lol :wall :wall :wall

[slick mick]

Re: Dumbass.............or Typical Heads Up I think you played it as well as you could, with a strong hand you got sucked into a difficult pot that you couldn't really get away from. Just unlucky that he made his higher pair.

[Jaded]

Re: Dumbass.............or Typical Heads Up IMO... (Disclaimer: Those who've seen me play will realise that making sensible decisions is never a strong point of mine, so take this with a pinch of salt!) Pre-flop good play, no way you fold with QJs in that position but not strong enough to reraise with. Bet on the flop for me is a little small... pot is 48k and you're betting 1/3 of that. I realise it's a probe bet but I think I'd have gone for maybe 24k... On the turn - what do you have him on? Choices are presumably 2 clubs for a flush draw, straight draw like you, a K or an A. I don't THINK too many people would have hung around on many other hands with the two big cards out there. Again, 16000 seems a low bet - either bet big as a bluff, or check and hope to get something to help you next card. After the river, I think I'd be checking, maybe folding if he bets (yes, I do fold SOMETIMES.) You've only got 3rd pair/decent kicker, and the possibility of him with an A or K would have me scared. Second disclaimer: What I'd probably have ACTUALLY done is lost most of my money trying to bluff him either pre-flop or on the flop - but this is a considered response!

[GaF]

Re: Dumbass.............or Typical Heads Up Heads up is difficult to look at like this- because (IMO) it is as much about what has gone on before than what either of you hold now...... I don't like the flat call pre flop (but that may well be as much down to my "style" as saying it was a bad play) - for me it is all in or fold - ESPECIALLY as you are out of position following the flop. Because of the flat call and being out of position, you have given yourself some really tough decisions - you have an inside str8 draw - which I'm sure you wouldn't chase - but because you haven't got position, you want to be aggressive and you want to "ask questions" of your opponent. So you bet (fair enough). He flat calls!!! That should scream at you to be careful!! You then pick up a flush draw as well as your inside str8 draw. BUT you are still an big underdog to hit an out and with 2 overcards (and the best you have seen) you must be pretty confident that you are behind. Are you pot committed by this stage? Yes I think so - so you should have been all in before this - you should be looking to maximise your "fold equity" - you wanted him to fold - you weren't looking to "string him along" (which is what your smaller bets were trying to do). For me - the BIG error was the flat call pre flop for 30% of your stack. The pot was big enough - you either maximise your "fold equity" and shove, or you fold and lose 1 BB.

[viggosen]

Re: Dumbass.............or Typical Heads Up I Agree with GotaFancy, I hate calling with such a big part of my stack out of position, to me it will always be an all-in or fold in that situation, and QJs is plenty good to reraise all in with when blinds is so big compared to once stack.

[guesswest]

Re: Dumbass.............or Typical Heads Up Certainly don't think you played it that badly, but I agree with others that you should be more aggressive here. For the oft mentioned reason that it gives you two ways to win instead of one, by getting a fold. For that reason I'd probably have reraised preflop, or folded, but assuming you did call and see the flop you should definitely have been all-in if you chose to play it. Because with the 16k bet you're pot committed to your draw regardless of what happens, so you should bet everything you can to lower your risk (tho obviously it'll still be high), because there are a handful of hands he may fold to a bigger bet here, like medium pocket pairs. Now you have to beat them as well as all the hands that'd call either bet. As a general rule I'd say when stacks are that small in relation to the blinds heads up, if you're flat calling it can be the right play, but you need to have a really specific and well formed reason to do so. Maybe to milk on a huge hand, or because you think your bluff will be more effective after the next street, or to manipulate position, or something. But if you don't have a specific reason in mind your default play should be raising or folding.

[AJ]

Re: Dumbass.............or Typical Heads Up Heads up, check and call aren't options for me, you either raise or fold. If you're calling or checking heads up, then imho, you're not happy that you're going to win the hand, so shouldn't be in it at all , when he rasied 24k, i'd have either pushed all in or folded. With QJ suited, I'd tend to think I'd have laid it down. Paying 16k to see the flop looking for a flush draw isn't worth it, you've got to put him on a pair or at least holding a A or K. Blinds are only 10% of your stack, 8k in the pot, your not committed, walk away from the hand, and attack his BB next hand.

[Dodger]

Re: Dumbass.............or Typical Heads Up In a heads up, after however much time it has taken to get there, tactics used throughout the game go straight out of the window. Watch the games on TV and you see that even the top pros make wild bets with duff hands. For me, at the stage you were at here, with the blinds so high, the All-In button flashes deliriously, shouting ''SHOVE 'EM ALL IN MATE''. After all ...even the worst of hands often has a reasonable chance of winning at that stage. As you implied in the top post, nothing you would have bet would have shaken him off his Ace, so the way you played the hand becomes irrelevent, this bloke wasn't going to move. It would be easy to criticise your play, if this had been early in the match, but then you probably would have played it totally different, maybe even folding preflop? Who knows? Anyway, heads-up...anything goes, and we were not the ones who had played so damned well to get into that position in the first place.

[viggosen]

Re: Dumbass.............or Typical Heads Up Well, I guess it also depends on how frequent villain raises in the small blind, when I say reraise all- in with QJs, I assume he that villain plays normal, and raises frequently to everytime from the small blind. If he is a very weak player who only raises with the really big hands, then it is of course a mistake to reraise all-in with QJs.

[Valiant23]

Re: Dumbass.............or Typical Heads Up I know that I played it badly. If I had no complaints then I think I could have coped, but the fact is I am really annoyed with myself on several levels, and was still thinking about this hand when I drifted off to sleep.

• I was the better player - he played chase the Ace.
• When he found one he made no attempt to disguise the fact.
• I could have folded on the flop and still got the lead back through better play.

He was an average tight-passive player and I usually have no trouble with these types of player, but I think getting AA twice and very little to show for them really annoyed me.

Bet on the flop for me is a little small... pot is 48k and you're betting 1/3 of that. I realise it's a probe bet but I think I'd have gone for maybe 24k...

For me - the BIG error was the flat call pre flop for 30% of your stack. The pot was big enough - you either maximise your "fold equity" and shove, or you fold and lose 1 BB.

I hate calling with such a big part of my stack out of position, to me it will always be an all-in or fold in that situation, and QJs is plenty good to reraise all in with when blinds is so big compared to once stack.

but I agree with others that you should be more aggressive here.

Heads up, check and call aren't options for me, you either raise or fold.

For me, at the stage you were at here, with the blinds so high, the All-In button flashes deliriously,

I have to say you are all right. :D A couple of things that stick in my mind - Mike Caro said in SSII "When playing an aggressive player and you have a good hand, let him do the betting for you". Hard to believe for some of you but I was the aggressor here. Another 'tip' written in stone and oft-forgotten, "Don't try and bluff bad players, they won't understand what you're doing. Just play the cards" (K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid). I think I have played a lot of quality heads up thanks to the PL games, and assume that everyone who gets to that stage is of a similar quality to PLers. Some great analysis here, certainly enough to confirm what I think I knew. :ok :ok Another lesson learnt.