I REALLY Need Help...

[Valiant23]

Just moved to this table - and I get to play one hand:\

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand #256314061 at table: Texas Holdem Started: Wed Apr 05 10:25:03 2006 gisp1 is at seat 1 with 2220.00 Peterone is at seat 2 with 1485.00 eho is at seat 3 with 1855.00 Perfect is at seat 4 with 4545.00 KOKAS is at seat 5 with 4475.00 Nemesis5 is at seat 6 with 4960.00 Higgs23pl is at seat 8 with 1500.00 emanze1971 is at seat 9 with 955.00 PBdoubleC is at seat 10 with 1120.00 KOKAS posts the large blind 50.00 Perfect posts the small blind 25.00 Perfect: --, -- KOKAS: --, -- Nemesis5: --, -- Higgs23pl: 10d, 10s emanze1971: --, -- PBdoubleC: --, -- gisp1: --, -- Peterone: --, -- eho: --, -- Pre-flop: Nemesis5: Call 50.00 Higgs23pl: Raise 200.00 emanze1971: Fold PBdoubleC: Fold gisp1: Fold Peterone: Fold eho: Fold Perfect: Fold KOKAS: Fold Nemesis5: Call 200.00 Flop (Board: 9c, 3s, 8h): Nemesis5: Check Higgs23pl: Bet 300.00 Nemesis5: Raise 900.00 Higgs23pl: All in Nemesis5: Call 1300.00 Showdown: Nemesis5 shows: 8s, 9s (two pair, Nines and Eights) Higgs23pl shows: 10d, 10s (a pair of Tens) Turn (Board: 9c, 3s, 8h, Ac): River (Board: 9c, 3s, 8h, Ac, 6d): Mainpot: Nemesis5 wins the pot of 3075 with two pair, Nines and Eights (0.00 rake were taken for this hand)

I am really struggling at the moment and taking a lot of hits like this when I go into a flop ahead and fail to see what I could possibly be losing to, which is the point of this request for help. How could I have got away from this type of hand without tightening up so much that there is no point in playing? I don't really care about the 'bad beat' aspect, but rather I'm looking for suggestions for tweaking my approach. Thanks in advance.:ok

[slick mick]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... Nothing you could do here except bail out on the check-raise saving two thirds of your stack. Just another example of a muppet getting lucky.

[PAULM03]

Re: I REALLY Need Help...

Nothing you could do here except bail out on the check-raise saving two thirds of your stack. Just another example of a muppet getting lucky.

I don't think this was a muppet getting lucky at all. he's chip leader with reasonably high suited connectors, there's no reason IMO why a loose aggressive player shouldn't call 4xBB with that hand. Yes the flop was kind to him, but it's a drawing hand and he probably knew it, so unless it was kind he would probably have just laid it down anyway. In all honesty I would have played the hand the same, with hindsight the only thing you probably could have done is respect the fact that he was chip leader, and taken a few of hands to try and get a grasp on his style.

[brael]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... I can't see how you could've got away from this one. You made a decent sized raise and, unfortunately, the rest of the table folded. With the size of your opponents stack, and only two players left in the pot, it was a relatively cheap call for him to make. He just got lucky on the flop. I might have taken his raise post-flop as a hint though and folded. Very difficult hand to put down given what hit the board. There's always room for improvement in everyone's poker-playing style but one thing you can't factor out is luck! :)

[Valiant23]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... I agree about the muppet, but thats my point. Surely the better players can get away from these situations, and if so, how? Do I show respect for the re-raise and fold? On what basis? If I did this I'd surely be easy pickings.

[slick mick]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... Have to back up my muppet comment. Calling in first position with 89s is not good play, calling a raise out of position (even as chipleader) is even worse. The whole idea of playing suited connectors is to get in cheap and strike if you get lucky. Most of the time play like this is just stupid, this time he got very lucky. As to folding after the check raise you have to make a decision on the info available, unfortunately in this kind of game you rarely get a chance to gather the info needed.

[PAULM03]

Re: I REALLY Need Help...

Have to back up my muppet comment. Calling in first position with 89s is not good play' date=' calling a raise out of position (even as chipleader) is even worse. The whole idea of playing suited connectors is to get in cheap and strike if you get lucky. Most of the time play like this is just stupid, this time he got very lucky. As to folding after the check raise you have to make a decision on the info available, unfortunately in this kind of game you rarely get a chance to gather the info needed.[/quote'] I can see where you're coming from, but you're making a judgment with absolutely no idea about his style of play. Some people like to throw the odd curveball and mix their play up a bit, he might have seen V was a newcomer to the table and decided to try to gather some info himself. Fair enough in your opinion he made a bad call and got lucky, but I think it's a step too far to just call him a muppet.

[brael]

Re: I REALLY Need Help...

I agree about the muppet, but thats my point. Surely the better players can get away from these situations, and if so, how? Do I show respect for the re-raise and fold? On what basis? If I did this I'd surely be easy pickings.

If you consider the size of your stack after he's raised in relation to the blinds then you could, in this example, get round the table more than 10 times so you're still in good shape if you fold. If it's early doors in an MTT then there's still some distance to go too. The only way I'd have been :@ about this was if I had reckoned I was ahead despite his raise, pushed all-in, found I was right then got stuffed on 4th and 5th street. He dropped a hint by going OTT. Now, where have I seen that before? :lol :lol :lol Don't forget that you are a good poker player and have a better idea than most of what you're doing!! :ok

[brael]

Re: I REALLY Need Help...

Have to back up my muppet comment. Calling in first position with 89s is not good play' date=' calling a raise out of position (even as chipleader) is even worse. The whole idea of playing suited connectors is to get in cheap and strike if you get lucky. Most of the time play like this is just stupid, this time he got very lucky. As to folding after the check raise you have to make a decision on the info available, unfortunately in this kind of game you rarely get a chance to gather the info needed.[/quote'] But he had position... V was the first to act in the hand so his opponent could get to see what he did first. It was a cheap call for him to make with suited connectors. If he hadn't hit anything on the flop he'd have almost certainly folded to V's bet. I'd have made the same call if I had been him. Could explain a lot mind you... :lol

[6ooner]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... I'd agree with the knowing about the style, He came big time over the top of your 1/2 pot raise, if he's a tight player, I'd generally respect it and fold. -(OK I say I'd do that, I'd want to do that, but I do sometimes think this is the tight players bluff because, of course, every one is trying to get me out of the game!!) I don't think there was any muppetry anywhere, it was a cheap flop for him to see, a bigger raise and you'd have got only the blinds for a semi decent hand, you played to get value in the hand and he flopped lucky. I've always found that extra coffee helps in these situations.

[rosco]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... Think it was unlucky, this situation u will win 9 out of ten times. I come up against this quite abit. even playing higher stakes with $3/$6 4 times the raise and the call not even on the blind with 8 10???? Playing against good players they may like to see a flop with 8,9s if they are late to bet. but calling a raise is pure muppetary. He got lucky you played it right and to put im on 8 9 was very difficult even after the re-raise. You will win more overall with better play as poor players get lucky but overall will loose. I suggest you play a different sites for a bit until this streak changes. Full tilt has better players. the boss media sites has poor players, for me makes it easier to win money. If you can be bothered make a note/diary of good and bad play and review it each week to see what you have done right and where you can improve or change your play.

[brael]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... Just looked at the hand again and realised I made the mistake of thinking Nemesis had position when he didn't. IMO you've got to get out of the way of a check raise. Still think he made the right move by calling V's raise though.

[PAULM03]

Re: I REALLY Need Help...

Still think he made the right move by calling V's raise though.

I agree. Less than 5% of his stack, with the knowledge that if he hits he has a good chance of getting all your chips in because you'd never put him on 89s. What did you put him on V?

[Valiant23]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... Thanks guys - I hoped for some kind of discussion on this, rather than rich tea and sympathy..:ok My 4xBB raise was to separate the wheat from the chaff - personally I think suited connectors below 10 9 are definitely chaff. When ALL the players except for the limper folded and he just called me I had him on a weak A (2-5) suited, or a decent drawing hand, like KJ. I truthfully didn't consider a small pair - though I should have, nor did I suspect a slow played larger pair. Really I suppose the problem is that I had the 2nd best possible flop (the best obviously having 1 or 2 more 10's showing), ie. A rainbow flop with no overcards. That to me was a green light to make any possible draws expensive for him. I honestly think that I will end up adjusting my play slightly and remember that even a pocket pair is only a pair after the flop - even if I have to give up some pots. I understand the muppet comments, and personally I agree (pre-flop), but post flop I think his play was spot on.

[Hodgey]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... I think you just got unlucky with this. I also agree that him calling the raise is ok, because he's a big stack and it's very little to him.

My 4xBB raise was to separate the wheat from the chaff - personally I think suited connectors below 10 9 are definitely chaff.

He's only one away from your definition of non-chaff with 89 suited. So if you slightly lower your definitions you will be ok in the future! :ok

[6ooner]

Re: I REALLY Need Help...

My 4xBB raise was to separate the wheat from the chaff - personally I think suited connectors below 10 9 are definitely chaff.

I'd agree completely but I think Dan Harrington says that he uses medium to high suited connectors as a randomiser to change his style sometimes. To be perfectly honest, as chip leader he may have wanted to be seen for a small price to change his table image. Another famous quote which sums it up is "Sh1t happens, don't beat yourself up about it" - (it just generally happens to me!):cry :cry :cry

[Valiant23]

Re: I REALLY Need Help...

I'd agree completely but I think Dan Harrington says that he uses medium to high suited connectors as a randomiser to change his style sometimes. To be perfectly honest, as chip leader he may have wanted to be seen for a small price to change his table image. Another famous quote which sums it up is "Sh1t happens, don't beat yourself up about it" - (it just generally happens to me!):cry :cry :cry

Thats my normal reaction to it, but if it keeps on happening then there has to be something I'm missing. It's difficult to say that this is the latest in a long line etc., without sounding like a cry-baby, but how else can I stress that this is why I'm asking for help, to see if there was something that someone else could see that I could not. Anyway more news on Nemesis.... hopefully. :hope

[Doob]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... I like low-medium suited connectors and am far more likely to call a raise with these than Ace-Rag (ie A9 to A2) as you are less likely to be domnated. Once you were check-raised the only possible hand you are beating is a pair of 9's (If he puts you on AK, AQ) and I think then this is a fold for me unless I'm on tilt when I will call. An example I had last night was when I raised with TT UTG and got 1 caller, flop comes 863 and I put out a stop-go bet of about half the pot and my opponent raised me all-in. It was on the points bubble so I folded and still feel this was a good fold but probably just another example of me playing ultra-tight!

[Valiant23]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... I watch Danno quite a lot in the afternoons, partly because I expect to get called out in the afternoon's, and partly to see if he is a sh't player (no comment :lol). When he started his Happy thread I popped on to watch him before I take my son to the dentist, and lo and behold he was sat with Nemesis.

Hand #256482527 at table: Texas Holdem Started: Wed Apr 05 14:29:31 2006 Nemesis5 is at seat 1 with 3245.00 chatard is at seat 2 with 1390.00 bulldog5 is at seat 3 with 2415.00 danno375 is at seat 4 with 2055.00 buchtom9 is at seat 5 with 3375.00 blademan is at seat 6 with 1795.00 Loukoum is at seat 7 with 1805.00 tipooo is at seat 8 with 1945.00 pinochio23 is at seat 9 with 870.00 KTKTKT is at seat 10 with 85.00 Loukoum posts the large blind 50.00 blademan posts the small blind 25.00 blademan: --, -- Loukoum: --, -- tipooo: --, -- pinochio23: --, -- KTKTKT: --, -- Nemesis5: --, -- chatard: --, -- bulldog5: --, -- danno375: Jd, As buchtom9: --, -- Pre-flop: tipooo: Fold pinochio23: Fold KTKTKT: All in Nemesis5: Call 85.00 chatard: Fold bulldog5: Call 85.00 danno375: Call 85.00 buchtom9: Call 85.00 blademan: Call 85.00 Loukoum: Fold Flop (Board: Jh, 2c, 7h): blademan: Check Nemesis5: Bet 200.00 bulldog5: Call 200.00 danno375: Raise 750.00 buchtom9: Fold blademan: Fold Nemesis5: All in bulldog5: Fold danno375: All in Showdown: Nemesis5 shows: Js, Qs (a pair of Jacks) danno375 shows: Jd, As (a pair of Jacks) KTKTKT shows: 9s, 9c (a pair of Nines) Turn (Board: Jh, 2c, 7h, 4s): River (Board: Jh, 2c, 7h, 4s, Ah): danno375 shows: Jd, As (two pair, Aces and Jacks) Sidepot 2: danno375 wins the pot of 4140 with two pair, Aces and Jacks Mainpot: danno375 wins the pot of 560 with two pair, Aces and Jacks (0.00 rake were taken for this hand) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand #256483957 at table: Texas Holdem Started: Wed Apr 05 14:31:20 2006 Nemesis5 is at seat 1 with 1190.00 chatard is at seat 2 with 1390.00 bulldog5 is at seat 3 with 2130.00 danno375 is at seat 4 with 4700.00 buchtom9 is at seat 5 with 3290.00 blademan is at seat 6 with 1735.00 Loukoum is at seat 7 with 1780.00 tipooo is at seat 8 with 1895.00 pinochio23 is at seat 9 with 870.00 tipooo posts the large blind 50.00 Loukoum posts the small blind 25.00 Loukoum: --, -- tipooo: --, -- pinochio23: --, -- Nemesis5: --, -- chatard: --, -- bulldog5: --, -- danno375: Ah, Ad buchtom9: --, -- blademan: --, -- Pre-flop: pinochio23: Raise 200.00 Nemesis5: Call 200.00 chatard: Fold bulldog5: Fold danno375: Raise 1000.00 buchtom9: Fold blademan: Fold Loukoum: Fold tipooo: Fold pinochio23: All in Nemesis5: Call 1000.00 Flop (Board: 6d, Kc, 8h): Nemesis5: Check danno375: Bet 190.00 Nemesis5: All in Showdown: Nemesis5 shows: Js, 7s (high card, King) danno375 shows: Ah, Ad (a pair of Aces) pinochio23 shows: Jh, As (high card, Ace) Turn (Board: 6d, Kc, 8h, 9c): River (Board: 6d, Kc, 8h, 9c, Jd): Sidepot 2: danno375 wins the pot of 640 with a pair of Aces Mainpot: danno375 wins the pot of 2685 with a pair of Aces (0.00 rake were taken for this hand)

. Danno very kindly pointed out to Nemesis "That was for Valiant", whilst some pillock called Higgs23pl was cheering in the chat box:rollin :rollin :rollin Makes me feel a hell of a lot better about this morning, but I still feel not seeing this is a blind spot in my game.

[6ooner]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... I take it back- he's a muppet - he just likes suited cards, there's no way you'd have seen it coming.

[danno375]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... glad to help valium mate!!!

[brael]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... That last hand looks like some real muppet play. You'd NEVER catch me doing that!! :tongue2

[Valiant23]

Re: I REALLY Need Help...

That last hand looks like some real muppet play. You'd NEVER catch me doing that!! :tongue2

So it was YOU under an alias!!!! :@ :@ :@

[rosco]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... will look out for Nemesis, looks like easy money, Then again there could be a cert badbeat

[brael]

Re: I REALLY Need Help...

So it was YOU under an alias!!!! :@ :@ :@

You mean you didn't recognise my style?? I'm so disappointed...! :lol

[robilaruk]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... the one thing I tend not to do when i first arrive at a table is raise (unless AA KK QQ - simply because you don't know how loose/tight the table is, and also because the 'regulars' on there have been playing nicely and a newbie decides to start pushing them around :) re your play - well in general I can't fault the PF raise or the continuation bet on the flop - again you ahve to ask what he might have to re-raise you, but I don't thinkI would have him on 2pr - either TPGK (A9 etc) or trips would spring to mind. I don't see you doing anything wrong in shoving either, because if you call you are pot committed anyway. just one of those things matey Damo

Just moved to this table - and I get to play one hand:\ I am really struggling at the moment and taking a lot of hits like this when I go into a flop ahead and fail to see what I could possibly be losing to, which is the point of this request for help. How could I have got away from this type of hand without tightening up so much that there is no point in playing? I don't really care about the 'bad beat' aspect, but rather I'm looking for suggestions for tweaking my approach. Thanks in advance.:ok

[slapdash]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... Re the original hand and whether he's a muppet: I understand what people are saying about calling with this kind of hand and a big stack in the hope of hitting the flop. But the size of Mr. V's stack is also relevant. By calling instead of folding, he could only possibly win 1550 chips, so he's only getting about 10/1 odds even if when he hits the flop he will always get Mr V all-in and he always wins when he hits the flop. In practise neither of these will always happen, so he's getting much worse odds than that. [Edited: got the numbers wrong first time.] Re whether Mr. V should have escaped: The main reason for calling with hands like suited connectors is that if you hit the flop then your hand is well disguised and you're likely to win a lot of chips. Well, he hit the flop and his hand was well-disguised and he won a lot of chips. I think that's just poker. Re long spells where things seem to go wrong all the time: It's certainly a good thing to reflect on the reason things aren't going well, but it can be overdone. There's a lot of luck in poker (and other forms of betting) and I think almost all of us underestimate how long a purely random losing (or winning) spell is likely to last, so when things aren't going well we convince ourselves that we've lost our touch and when things are going well we convince ourselves we are Masters of the Universe. I think an exercise like this might be instructive: Start with a bank of 50 points. Each day, shuffle a pack of cards and pick one, trying to pick a high card. Give yourself 2 points for an ace or king, 1 point for a queen, jack or ten, deduct two points for a two or three and one point for a four, five or six. Repeat this five times a day or so, and try to convince yourself that it's important and that the results are down to your skill. Keep a record for a few months but don't analyse it until the end. See whether you feel you have unusually long good or bad spells, and at the end of the experiment analyse the data to see whether your impression was correct.

[robilaruk]

Re: I REALLY Need Help... he has approx 100BB so limping UTG with a drawing hand to hit a monster is normal calling the raise - well its another 150 to win 325, so he is getting just over 2:1 - so if all the Hero has is AK he is getting his odds - and again he has commited only 1/50th of his stack. I can't fault the chip leader on this, if he hits nothing he bails, but he has hit a monster (apart from the str/flush) The only thing I think is a 'muppet play' is the raise on the flop - if the Hero does only have AK/Q/J and not an overpair it is probably going in the muck to the raise and two overcards are more likely than a higher PP - a smooth call would be the way I would play it and hope the turn hits one of his cards and then get my chips in. This is not a muppet hand IMHO - you have to use your chipstack when you have that many chips, otherwise you are wasting them, as they are worthless when the blinds hit 200/400, when you have only 10-12 BB, not 100. Just my thoughts Damo

Have to back up my muppet comment. Calling in first position with 89s is not good play' date=' calling a raise out of position (even as chipleader) is even worse. The whole idea of playing suited connectors is to get in cheap and strike if you get lucky. Most of the time play like this is just stupid, this time he got very lucky. As to folding after the check raise you have to make a decision on the info available, unfortunately in this kind of game you rarely get a chance to gather the info needed.[/quote']

[guesswest]

Re: I REALLY Need Help...

he has approx 100BB so limping UTG with a drawing hand to hit a monster is normal calling the raise - well its another 150 to win 325, so he is getting just over 2:1 - so if all the Hero has is AK he is getting his odds - and again he has commited only 1/50th of his stack. I can't fault the chip leader on this, if he hits nothing he bails, but he has hit a monster (apart from the str/flush) The only thing I think is a 'muppet play' is the raise on the flop - if the Hero does only have AK/Q/J and not an overpair it is probably going in the muck to the raise and two overcards are more likely than a higher PP - a smooth call would be the way I would play it and hope the turn hits one of his cards and then get my chips in. This is not a muppet hand IMHO - you have to use your chipstack when you have that many chips, otherwise you are wasting them, as they are worthless when the blinds hit 200/400, when you have only 10-12 BB, not 100. Just my thoughts Damo

I'm not sure on this re: muppet play, I agree with you in principle that suited connectors are worth playing at this price when you're stacked, so I don't think it's a horrible call or anything - but I'm not convinced V had enough chips for him to get the implied odds here. It'd partly depend on V's table image, and I dunno what that was, but I'm guessing he was playing fairly considered poker - that raise makes me think either overpair or AK. Yes he just about has odds against AK but even if he gets lucky and hits the flop, he can't play the hand with any confidence with one pair because he's just as likely to run into an overpair, and even then if he does run into AK, it that isn't far behind with two more cards to come. So really he needs to be flopping two pair or some kind of big draw to make this hand pay, and I'm not convinced he's winning enough chips vs the chances of that happening (although it did happen) to justify the call out of position - and being that he's out of position he has to play his cards, which loses one of the advantages of having a big stack. Edit: errr scratch the position comment, misread the hand :$ - still not convinced V had enough chips to justify his call tho.