Doob Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Hello, Can all you excellent Punters Lounge people help to stop me bubbling in STTs and MTTs. (I've always been told flattery gets you everywhere :lol ) It happens so often it can't just be down to luck and I'm still fuming at my 4th place in last nights Champions League game. Telepe/Penelopeys what was I doing wrong when there were only 4 of us left? Any help/experiences of "bubble play" would be appreciated. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danno375 Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Doob........I am not sure if my advice is worth a bubble of man fat but you can have it! I am an extremely patient player and don't mind getting short stacked waiting for my hand. when it gets to the buble i have two stratagies. 1) wait for the big hand. Play it big and because you have been origami man to date the table SHOULD respect your raise. Then you know that anyone you are up against is either a big hand( cointoss possibly) or a muppet who is chancing his arm(easy chips) 2) conitnue to be origami man. I have scraped into the money with nearly no chips left on the bubble and sat smiling as two of the big guys go head to head and neither will back down. one goes and you're in. Now if you have been getting decent cards and played them well and have amassed a good stack then those rules don't always count. You can afford to be a bully and see a few more flops. BUT Don't be one of the big guys i mentioned and drop on the bubble!I am not saying fold the nuts just because someone goes in against you....just be careful. Some players will bet big BECAUSE it is bubble time and know that other players don't want to have been sat there for hours with no reward. My opinion is that is a fantastic stratagy and very successful. It is fraught with danger and peril though. Muppets are everywhere remember! They do get lucky. Oh my god.....do they get lucky. I had AA and this moron............. you know the rest. Try to be sensible and let fly when you have a good hand. Just make sure you don't join me so regularly in the bad beat thread! Good Luck Danno the wise or not delete as appropriate! Edit: when it gets to the buble........... erm... i don't mean that nice young man with a fine singing voice and a favourite of Micheal Parkinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble That's wrong, I know because I've been a referee/umpire in subuteo, shuffleboard and barebacking for 20 years, and I take great pride in knowing how to apply those lessons to poker I really think you should be getting aggressive on the bubble, unless your stack is absolutely crippled. It's the easiest time in the tournament to pick up chips, and you'll need to pick up chips to win. You'll bust a bit more but 1 first place is worth 50-100 minimum cashes in larger tournaments, am convinced there's more positive expectation in being aggressive even if it's painful bubbling. Just with the proviso that if you run into reraises it's more likely than ever to mean you're up against a legitimate hand, because the other players are generally scared of bubbling and less likely to push without the goods. I don't know the situations involved, but I'd guess you've just ran into opponents with cards at the wrong time - I'm guessing one 1st/2nd type finish will add up to more than those bottom cashes when it comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danno375 Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble fair enough.... told you doob....... only my stratagy.... i find that patience pays..... guess goes for the throat.... you decide which suits your game best......... you have your phone a friend left! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAC Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble We call it "Sweaty Fourth" in my house. Again, it's all done to personal preferences but I try and look for a patient player who maybe a little bit frightened (like yourself - no offence) of bubbling and raise him or her with anything, if you get re-raised then at least you know they have a hand. It pays to pray on the guys desperate to hit the money and who are short stacked, they may even fold good hands to you. I've also found that it suits me to wait in position on a STT and just go all in on the next shortest stack. Doesn't always work but I'll be nadgered if I'm just going to be sucked out on the blinds with an 8-2. I've played 4 1000 players MTTS on consecutive nights this week and monied in all of them. In MTT's you can afford (IMHO) to wait for the other guy's to make mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danno375 Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble waiting for mistakes is what i am getting at............ Never be afraid to play a good hand.. although I have folded a good hand when two others are taking bites out of each other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Will also add to what I'd said - I'd missed that you were saying STT's as well as MTT's. If a tourney only pays 3 then the prize differentials aren't particularly great, so you might want to play more cautiously - you also likely have a read on the 3 players left so that'll dictate play. I was thinking like MTT's that pay $30 for last cash and $5k for 1st, in that situation you should always attack on the bubble, it's a great time to pick up chips and you can afford to bust loads of times before you're winning less than the occasional top 5 type finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAC Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Doob, You could always play on a very cheap STT and just play your normal game but then try being more aggressive than normal when you get down to 5 and below. One out and out bluff on a short stacker could see you make the cash (or could see you out in 5th!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble I'm with Danno on this one....!!! Tightness... Patience, tightness.... Patience ...and then strike when a good hand is there... No bluffing shortstacked at this "bubblepoint" !!!!!! And normally there will be some less patient players who will knock eachother out... ...that happened in yesterdays Champions League too :tongue2 Well, this works for me... I VERY rarely go out on the bubble... seems just such a waste of time :lol (okay... hit me now...obnoxious...I know) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAC Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble No bluffing shortstacked at this "bubblepoint" !!!!!! Thats interesting to know!!!! ...and then strike when a good hand is there... What if it doesn't come, Lady P? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Thats interesting to know!!!! What if it doesn't come, Lady P? :) He he... I might have to change my strategy after this.... :lol And it will come... or if it doesn't just sit tight and let the others fight.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAC Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble And it will come... or if it doesn't just sit tight and let the others fight.... Not always so in my experience and what if it's a STT? - you have to be aggressive at some point if none of the remaining players are going to knock each other out for you. But I do agree though. Patience is sooooo important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Not always so in my experience and what if it's a STT? - you have to be aggressive at some point if none of the remaining players are going to knock each other out for you. But I do agree though. Patience is sooooo important. Exactly my experience in STT... I play a lot of STT's at SO and waiting and patience almost always bring me in the money... :D Unless I have become very shortstacked, I won't be that aggressive... not until HU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAC Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble I guess it's all down to personal preference I suppose. I play my STT's on Nordic - a very aggressive place to play, which suits me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philossify Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Hi Doob, I went out 5th yesterday AJs versus GAF's 99 (a reasonably fair fight so it didn't irk me that much). Heres my theory of bubble (or close to bubble) play - mind you I sometimes have problems converting theory into practice :cry 1. Play tight but aggressive if you are high stacked ... bully for alll you are worth (Pene and Gaf are very good at this the swines :rollin ) and don't let people stay for cheap flops. What constitutes a bullying hand depends on how many people on the table and their reative stacks. In a four person game I'd say that if your are clear chip leader and have an above average hand (KT, small pair , medium suited connectors, Ax) then you bump to (say) three times BB (of course you could also be bumping with a really good hand). 3BB should probably represent something like 8% or less of your stack. Ideally you want to be last better after the flop. Be prepared to stack if reraised (or reraise if you think you've got them) particularly by the stronger hands. Be prepared to stay distance from all-in by short stacks (probably won't cost that much anyway if they are really short stacked) unless you've really gone bluffing/buying, in which case you don't want to give the short stack a complete double up. 2 If short stacked then patience is the key ..... wait for premium hands and get all your chips in, the smaller your stack the more the need to shove em all in. If everyone folds you've stolen some blinds and can survive another round waiting for the premium hand or someone else to get killled, if not and you win you've doubled up (at least). Expect that 50% of the time your all-in attempt will fail, especially when really short stacked. Total bluffing when short stacked can be dangerous. and the bigger the field (IMHO) the more you want to try and hang on and let someone else take the risk. Of course there comes a point where the blinds are eating you alive (especiallly in a 4/5 player game when only 3 places paid :) ) and the higher stacks are happily sitting there waiting for you to go - under those conditions you have to start reducing your hand requirement under which you'll get your chips in - it can get to the point where whatever your two cards are your going all in - remember that 27 still has something like a 35% shot against any other two random cards.... and a 13% shot against something like AA. 3. If medium stacked (i.e. there are as many people with stacks lower than me as stacks higher than me) then I personally tend to play very tight and try and wait fro the lower stacks to go - but still play premium hands aggressively. What you don't want to do is fall from medium stacked to low stacked if at all possible which means you have to try and (at least) maintain position by either protecting your blind or stealing others - its always horrible having some really aggressive high stacked bully (mentioning no names :lol ) sitting closely on your right and you have to be prepared to punish them if you think they are trying it on. Of course when theres only 4 people left then you are always close to the bully. Anyway theres some of my thoughts. :cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble 1. Play tight but aggressive if you are high stacked ... bully for alll you are worth (Pene and Gaf are very good at this the swines :rollin ) LOOOOOOOL.... GaF... Phil calls us bullies :loon Are we going to just take that???? :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin Well, I AM scarier than some peoples mum... :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble In general you shoud be trying to steal lots of blinds and being aggressive around the bubble, its definitely +EV to do so, Guesswest has the right idea. It can depend tho, if everyone else is being mental then sit back and play a big hand and dotn bother getting involved. But if everybody tightens up which is what usually happens, then start-a-raising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doob Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Thanks for the responses. I think the word is patience. I did lose patience last night when the good hands didn't arrive and began "inventing" good hands but was disappointed in that the few times I did bluff they were called/re-raised. This will be a useful thread to re-visit the next time I get to bubble time or chico time or whatever it is called :D . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6ooner Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Thanks for the responses. I think the word is patience. I did lose patience last night when the good hands didn't arrive and began "inventing" good hands but was disappointed in that the few times I did bluff they were called/re-raised. This will be a useful thread to re-visit the next time I get to bubble time or chico time or whatever it is called :D . Patience is indeed a virtue, and there are times when the cards don't come (I've been waiting since Christmas 2003). Once you develop a style/strategy you're happy with you'll find you need to keep adjusting it. Think about every hand, if you played 2 pair on a well spread flop and someone with nothing stays in to river a straight there's nothing you can do about it, sometimes you're destined to go out. Examine the reasons you played that particular hand and if they're good and you lost .... that's poker. That's my 2 penneth of waffle anyway, the main reason I'm posting is to say never let it get you down, you can't win them all and there's always another tournament around the corner. If you're worried about the amount you've bought in with or losing out on the cash you're propbably playing stakes that are too high for your own comfort - foget the stakes and paly the game- once you've bougt in the money is gone you just have to try and win a prize. Disclaimer: This is you understand 'just my opinion' - quite often not worth a toss!:loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgej Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble The one thing i need to work on is bluffing. Rarely do it and never a decent amount. In MTT's and sometimes Stt's, if you are in 4th/5th place and the blinds are getting big, don't be afraid of going allin with a semi decent hand. Just don't target the large stacks - the others will not be thinking about protecting their blinds, but focus more on staying in the game. Just make sure it is a bet that will make them stop and think. Also use your position on the table. If people aren't raising after the flop, you may want to put in more than 1x raise. They may have the highcard and a low kicker, waiting to see who else has a hand to bet against. If they just want to see the next card, make the chasers pay 'til it hurts. Those rivers are a pain so get rid of chasers if you have a decent hand/position. I noticed when playing against GaF on betfred that he isn't scared of going allin. While i would not recommend it, this can work quite well if it means losing half your stack or just losing a BB (GaF won by the way). What i have noticed and tried to stop recently is the "do unto others" syndrome in my play. I try not to bully because i don't like being bullied and show cards because i like to see what others were playing. Stopped showing now and don't try to slowplay as much - just with hands that i think won't be beaten on the river. (Although the occasional fishing trip is still in order) If you have a good hand after the flop, make a good bet. Too many hands of mine are lost because i don't push opponents hard enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Whilst patience is a required skill, I think for those who aren't naturally aggressive then aggressiveness near the bubble is an acquired skill. I recognised the failing in my game of a lack of aggression, and in attempting to rememdy this the pendulum swung to far and I was being too aggressive with the same results (ie. Going out too early). Don't expect an immediate improvement if you do change your style - any 'experiment' needs time to be perfected, and I suppose that patience plays its part there too. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble I agree with all of this - I cannot see the point in settling for 'just in the money' - there is no money at that point, you get your buy-in a nd a bit back - the real money is top 3 and for that you will need lots of chips and lots of luck So I push my edges (or non edges) as much as I can all the way through the tourny to get chips, sometimes I win but most of the time I lose, and that I have learn to except. I did brilliant in January playing like this (something close to $700 profit, with half of it in the $up), but only finished ITM once in Feb - did I play any different? I doubt it, its just the way the cards fell and how my bets panned out aginst the others. I for one am only interested in top table/top 3 (unless I have played in a super satellite and qualified for a big buy in tourney when ITM pays a similar amount to a top table finish in my usual full buy ins - then I will be patient to scrape into the cash before picking my spot and shoving!) Just my thoughts Damo :cheers Damo That's wrong, I know because I've been a referee/umpire in subuteo, shuffleboard and barebacking for 20 years, and I take great pride in knowing how to apply those lessons to poker I really think you should be getting aggressive on the bubble, unless your stack is absolutely crippled. It's the easiest time in the tournament to pick up chips, and you'll need to pick up chips to win. You'll bust a bit more but 1 first place is worth 50-100 minimum cashes in larger tournaments, am convinced there's more positive expectation in being aggressive even if it's painful bubbling. Just with the proviso that if you run into reraises it's more likely than ever to mean you're up against a legitimate hand, because the other players are generally scared of bubbling and less likely to push without the goods. I don't know the situations involved, but I'd guess you've just ran into opponents with cards at the wrong time - I'm guessing one 1st/2nd type finish will add up to more than those bottom cashes when it comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avongirl Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Well played on BetFair tonight Doob. Good to see a man following advice and getting a result so quickly! I must think of a question to ask and see if it works for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick mick Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble The bubble has burst:drums well done Doob:nana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friskyfitz Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble The bubble has burst:drums well done Doob:nana Sorry mate - I never knew it was you at the tables. Sorry for not chatting that much but i genuninely did not know you were a member here.... :$:$ Well done on £60 :ok:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doob Posted March 25, 2006 Author Share Posted March 25, 2006 Re: Help I always seem to Bubble Cheers all, this thread worked a treat. No worries Fitz, you played a good aggressive game well played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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