Where is poker going?

[ThePro19]

When I first started playing poker nearly 2 years ago, the game was enjoyable and although it was still mostly the luck of the cards, there was a little skill in playing. 6 months later I found online poker, and what a difference. Players were playing anything and everything... not how I had learned to play the game (watching Late Night Poker on TV). Worse was to come. Within a couple of months these same players were frequenting the casino live games and playing the same way. Money seemed to be no object. A lot of players are happy to throw money into the pot because of what lies at the other end. There is no respect for what they already have, i.e. they are prepared to have 10 £10 buy-ins in the hope that they may win £1000. That is all they have their sights on (which is no bad thing), but totally forgetting that if they don't get there they lose £100. Now that to me is some serious gambling and no longer just a bit of fun... especially as these players are playing every night. So, as far as I have seen, the game is changing. (For those who have been playing longer, please let me know if it used to be any different). Should we be changing with it? Should we be playing poorer hands? We see loads of posts (particularly from Danny Cash and myself) about bad beats. (I assume we're not the only ones!) Is it time we gave some of the cruel luck back? Should we play tight, or should we chase? Which is the more profitable? I would like to think that tight play would reward, but my net profits in online poker does not show that. Your thoughts?

[Masterplan]

Re: Where is poker going? profits are there to be made, but there's just as much skill in choosing a table and your opponents as there is in playing the hands now, spotting the loose players and the calling stations is why i always sit out a cash game as long as i can to observe before playing a hand

[Valiant23]

Re: Where is poker going? First off Pro, its Danno the bad beat king, Danny Cash plays any old crap. :lol :lol :lol :lol Very interesting.... You see I have been playing for 6 months now, so despite my age I am one of the new generation. Do I play any old crap? Only sometimes. Now this made me smile....

A lot of players are are happy to throw money into the pot because of what lies at the other end. There is no respect for what they already have, i.e. they are prepared to have 10 £10 buy-ins in the hope that they may win £1000. That is all they have their sights on (which is no bad thing), but totally forgetting that if they don't get there they lose £100. Now that to me is some serious gambling and no longer just a bit of fun... especially as these players are playing every night.

as that is how I discovered poker before LNP. I have told many times about how my taxi driver colleagues have become so addicted to trying to take down the big one, that they would waste a nights takings in doing so. I KNOW that you will have played against some of them - I'm certain of it. The next night they would go out to work with barely enough fuel to get them through the shift, and they were awful, terrible adverts for the game of poker. I'm pretty sure that they were crap players, and that I could take them now. The image they portrayed put me off taking the plunge until I found PL 6 months ago. Honestly. I wanted to play the game, as I liked the look of it, butwas scared to because of these players, who by your definition, are also part of the 'new breed', but who I consider to be 'old skool'. I do understand some of your frustrations, but I am certain that you have the ability to adapt without detracting from what is a sound enough game. The people who 'survive' this revolution will realise the best way to play poker, and accept that programmes such as The WPT have as much to do with 'real' poker as MOTD has to do with 'real' football. 1 more thing, though. I saw Penelopeys play 45 hearts one night this week, and despite the 'foolishness' of this she won. Now in out of context this is awful play, BUT this is Pene's favourite 'rag' hand, her lucky omen. If you know this about Pene you know that she will play those cards. This doesn't make her a bad player. I've watched her play on several nights and KNOW she isn't. But the player who she knocked out with that hand may still be cursing her now.

[DC]

Re: Where is poker going? Thanks for that Mr V :(

[Valiant23]

Re: Where is poker going?

Thanks for that Mr V :(

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol You should be happy mate, Boro are through...

[DC]

Re: Where is poker going? Pro, I'm actually getting sick of the game. I've kept a record since last September and was happily making a profit every month from £10 STT's. I was regularly placing 1st, 2nd and 3rd and making over £5.00 on average per game. Since January I've won only 2 games, my profits have diminished, I'm now 'earning' less than £2.50 a game and finding it hard to justify spending 3 hours a night playing this game when I could be doing something more rewarding. The only tournament I seem to do ok in is the Mon/Weds Sporting Odds Dollar Up!! I've noticed an increase in bad beats, lunatics and poor play and yes it is affecting my confidence. I'm not aware of my style getting any looser, I don't feel I'm doing anything wrong but I'm placing 4th, 5th and 6th now in these tournaments. It could be just a bad phase, cold cards etc but my whole attitutde towards the game has changed. There's that much poker shoved down our throats now that everyone and anyone seem to think they can win with no thought or effort to learn the game, calculate out's, strategy etc etc... I agree with you that it's becoming more of a gamble to some now rather than a test of logic, maths and strategy.

[Valiant23]

Re: Where is poker going? Danny, could it be time for you to 'move' your poker 'home'? I'm doing okay at the moment on the Boss Media STT's at the moment.... :hope :hope :hope

[jeffster]

Re: Where is poker going? Interesting observation / comments, Pro... I liken Poker to learning to drive - We all pretty much start as really bad players, but then (hopefully) progress as our game gets better.... However, there does appear to be a lot of players who will just call / raise anything, as long as they have two cards in front of them, hoping no doubt to take down the "big one". I have even noticed this in the league games that I play, as mentioned on another thread, and remember, these league games are NOT played for money, just points / rankings.... The first Poker site I used was "poker.co.uk", run by a guy that I now know from offices in central Bristol. Matt told me about the Bristol & West poker group (http://poker.meetup.com/321), and through joining the group, I got to know a few other players, play a few low buy in (I love John & Lindsays Friday night £5, which is good fun ) home games....Eventually, I accompanied some of the guys to the £20 rebuy at the Stanley Casino in Bristol, for a guaranteed £3,000 prize fund.... Well, that Casino game really opened my eyes, and I aint gone back since ! There were some total tw@ts there, with a lot of verbal as well, who would call with ANYTHING, lose, stick their hand in the hand in the air and shout "Rebuy !"....Good poker, is it B*ll*cks ! :@ Hell, there were two guys down there, who are apparently millionnaires, who had a stack of £20 notes about three quarters of an inch thick, they would just call anything and everything, and continually have to re-buy...Now, if they are millionnaires, why be interested in a £3k tourney ? If they were good or wanted to become good Poker players, surely they would play "properly" for a start, and could afford to enter some really good tourneys that the likes of us on PL aspire to.... I think you have to continue to play to the best of your ability, which will hopefully win out in the end, as the "calling stations" get bored, or have their house re-possed through Poker debts, and just dissappear from the game...Sure, newbies will always come in to the game, and play poorly at first, but will hopefully become more competent as time goes on.... Poker has got be a unique game...Yes, there is an element of gambling, but also an element of skill...Hopefully, most of the players who play using 100% gambling "skills", wont last in the game very long...

[msaban]

Re: Where is poker going? good thread Ive only been playing 10 months ish - my wife taught me after she learnt the game (at the time I was spending every hour studying for my cisco exams), anyway I tend to do things to the extreme very quickly and found myself going from player points freerolls to $650 tournaments online to playing live for major pots in a very short time, and have probably played every hand ( whats the maths 52x51 different combinations ? ).However what frequently winds me up, is when people dont understand a bet. Its one thing to make a bet with 72o, its completely different to call one with that. One thing I have noticed is that the higher the entry stakes, the better poker that is played - especially live. £10 rebuys are just a crapshoot during the rebuy period whereas £30 ones there seems to be a lot more respect for a raise. Ive got the bug that much that my days off studying football form guides - once a constant profit maker are now non existent - but just like that 90th Min penatly - theres always some git who tries to ruin all the good work with a stupid decision Mike

[ThePro19]

Re: Where is poker going? Guys - thanks for all your views, makes good reading. Firstly, sorry Danny... I knew it started with a D but didn't have time to check it out as I was in a rush. Looks like we're all in agreement. But it looks like you all still think the best way to play is the 'skill' game. I've thought about writing this post for a few days, but only did it earlier today after I read a couple of threads this morning... particularly the one from Masterplan about if anyone would have played his 95 any differently... and that after playing 56 and 10 8. And about raising with crap cards... yes, I agree that's a bluff and part of the skill of the game, but to call with it is pure stupidity and sooooooooooooooooooooo annoying when they keep hitting. That said, there are times to call with poor cards too. For example, I remember playing a live game some months ago. Adminttedly, it was during the re-buy stage, but 3 or 4 players had gone all-in for about 1k each. Got round to the BB and chipleader and he called too. Everyone else turned over high cards... A's K,s Q, J, etc. He turned over 45 suited (or maybe 46, cant rememeber). Now, looks like a crap call, but if you think about it, it was quite clever. He was banking on everyone else having high cards and no pocket pairs. That means that the other players had very few outs because they were all holding each others cards. And guess what... he hit the straight on the river. Yes, it was lucky, but at the same time a well worked out strategy. But also, it wasn't just any 2 cards, they were suited connectors (I think) to give him a number of possibilites. With regards to the poker programmes on tv, apart from LNP, I think all the others are a pretty crap advertisment for poker. The standard of play is poor, and I think this is where players are learning to play. Last night I saw a few minutes of the heads up encounter between Chris Moneymaker and whoever he was playing when he won the WSOP. His final hand was a 56 to the other guy's J10. Flop came J56 and the commentators were raving about how well he played it. There was no good play there, he just got very lucky. Gus Hansen is the same in my opinion. I've watched him have absoutely nothing, call with nothing, chase with nothing, and hit on the river to win. Again, no skill there, just 100% luck. And unfortunately this is how most of the Scandanvians play (that's MOST, Pene and PeeGee - I don't know if you play the same, although I'd doubt it)... and they're all on the Prima network (presumably Nordicbet)... and it is soooooooooo frustrating and annoying. I avoid them like the plague. You say the more expensive buy-ins are a better standard. In a live game I would definitely agree. Most of these newbie's to the live game won't even venture into the £20 buy-in game. 5 months after I started playing (and was £3500 in profit I might add), I played a £100 buy-in satellite tourney at Walsall for the Grosvenor Grand Prix finals. And despite losing my 1000 chips on the first hand when I held A10 and hit 10 on the flop (top card), but lost on the river when someone hit a diamond flush... holding 3d5d!!!! FFS! Anyway, I was allowing myself one buy-in and because I had a good hand, I carried on. Out of the 43 runners 6 qualified for the finals... and I was one of them. And I even made a play that everyone thought was the wrong one, but in my opinion it was the correct one because I made it to the final. I had Ad10d. I put in a maximum raise and BB called. Flop came AJ10... all spades. BB raised the pot - about 9k I think. I thought about it for a very long time and eventually folded, showing my cards. Everyone else was stunned and said I should have called. But I reckon I did the right thing. If I had called I would have had about 2k left. I was fairly certain he had an A (he only played high cards), but if he had a K, Q or a spade... well in my opinion it just wasn't worth it. I had been getting good cards all night, I knew I just had to bide my time. Unfortunately I came 104th in the final out of 142... after one of the worst bad beats I've ever had. Got dealt QJ. Raised the pot and one person called. Flop came K and 2 rags. He checked. I put in 2k to see where I stood. He called. I was sure he had a K and was slow-playing. Next card was a Q - I'd hit a pair. He went all-in for 6.5k. I had 6k left. Wasn't really getting many good cards, and for some reason I felt really lucky and that a J won fall on the river. I decided I had to make a move... either double up or home to bed. I called. He turned over JJ! Unbelieveable! I was ahead but couldn't believe he did that with 2 overcards on board. Anyway, the river came... and the one card that I wanted on the river was the only... THE ONLY card that could beat me...AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Had nightmares for days to come. With regards to higher buy-in games online, I don't have the courage. I've read in a number if places that if there is cheating going on, then this is where it would be as this is where the money is. I've played up to £30 6paks, but even that is frightening. I think I've played 5 of them... and amazingly won 3, 2nd in 1 and lost in the other. But I don't want the stress after losing. Does anyone play more expensive STT's, or MTT's? Would you recommend them? Well, I think this post is long enough... it'll take you to tomorrow night's DU to read it! Any more comments would be welcomed, particularly about playing more expensive online games.

[Masterplan]

Re: Where is poker going? the 56 suited was me forced in on the big blind after losing AA to j/6 off the 10/8 was just a followup not expecting to win. i agree with the 9/5 tho, shouldnt have called even tho there was no preflop raise just to clear my name of playing bad cards consistently :)

[Valiant23]

Re: Where is poker going?

Gus Hansen is the same in my opinion. I've watched him have absoutely nothing, call with nothing, chase with nothing, and hit on the river to win. Again, no skill there, just 100% luck.

Mate I know you don't like the fella, but you are surely making a judgment on extremely potted highlights. You admit yourself that these programs don't represent proper poker. In fact I think they do all pro players a disservice as we don't get to appreciate what they went through to get to that point where we see the final flop. And just like most major footy matches most of the premium action happens before the final. The thing we see at Wembley or Cardiff is probably a terrible 'advert' for football, but the games on the way there may all be thrillers.

[robilaruk]

Re: Where is poker going? one word Variance Damo :cheers

Pro, I'm actually getting sick of the game. . Since January I've won only 2 games, my profits have diminished, I'm now 'earning' less than £2.50 a game and finding it hard to justify spending 3 hours a night playing this game when I could be doing something more rewarding.

[robilaruk]

Re: Where is poker going? pick a game that you are comfortable playing and that your BR can manage be TAG and take the muppets money :) bad beats blah-di-blah, mean you are ahead and got busted, it happens, its called luck and its part of the game (so note down the name of the muppet and make sure you play against them again!) Damo :cheers ps read Harrington again to tighten up your loosening playing style (we all start to play loose after a bit LOL)

When I first started playing poker nearly 2 years ago, So, as far as I have seen, the game is changing. (For those who have been playing longer, please let me know if it used to be any different). Should we be changing with it? Should we be playing poorer hands? We see loads of posts (particularly from Danny Cash and myself) about bad beats. (I assume we're not the only ones!) Is it time we gave some of the cruel luck back? Should we play tight, or should we chase? Which is the more profitable? I would like to think that tight play would reward, but my net profits in online poker does not show that. Your thoughts?

[ThePro19]

Re: Where is poker going?

the 10/8 was just a followup not expecting to win.

:unsure If you didn't expect to win, why play it!!!!

[Masterplan]

Re: Where is poker going? figured i'd take a shot at it, after losing AA to j/6 off, i was just annoyed and wouldnt have minded leaving the tourny at that point. the only way to be sure of losing is to fold preflop right :p

[guesswest]

Re: Where is poker going? Thepro. If games get poorer it makes it easier to win, not harder. Your variance will shoot through the roof, so you may experience longer losing streaks, but it makes NO sense to say other people playing badly makes you more likely to lose. It makes poker much more profitable, and if you're not winning over the long haul in these games then you're failing to adapt your own game properly. And Hansen is an excellent player. Even setting aside his reading skills, situational awareness etc - he has an absolutely first class mathematical understanding of the game from his backgammon background and is analysing the game at a level none of us lot are close to doing. Anyways, he's won 3 WPT events. The odds of him doing so by random fluke if he was some muppet cluelessly playing any two cards have to be worse than getting struck by lightning twice. How are we deciding which tournament players are good and bad if not by their results?