how big is enough?

[Masterplan]

would anyone here ever fold KK or QQ preflop for fear of higher pockets or someone catching the ace/king? at what point could you think you might be beat already without the flop being seen? only ask because i just crashed out of a $5 nl mtt, QQ on the BB, button raises, sb calls, i re-raise, button calls, sb re-raises all in, i call, button folds sb turns over AA ... what would anyone else have done?

[GaF]

Re: how big is enough? Look at this thread ........ http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23819 Of 25 occasions I was dealt QQ in low (micro) limit cash games, I folded preflop 3 times!!! Far too weak.......

[Penelopeys]

Re: how big is enough? Preflop I would never fold QQ or KK... UNLESS... I have a humongous stack, and the guy raising is large too... and if I'm close to the money... I would consider folding... I once folded AK preflop in a mtt after a big raise... I were huge... no need to risk it... and I wouldn't have won it either :ok ...but hey... anything can happen

[Masterplan]

Re: how big is enough? yeah i've dropped an ak plenty of times and once in a cash game i folded AA when a K came on the flop ... but preflop those top pockets look so nice!!! JJ is even tough to drop the QQ above was level 2, when the previous hand i'd been dealt 4c 8c flop came 5c 6h 7d turn was 3c big pot, 2 guys betting at each other, then one went all in and other folded but i'd folded preflop DAMNIT!!! tho no doubt the 89 woulda beat me or smth :p

[Penelopeys]

Re: how big is enough?

yeah i've dropped an ak plenty of times and once in a cash game i folded AA when a K came on the flop ... but preflop those top pockets look so nice!!! JJ is even tough to drop the QQ above was level 2, when the previous hand i'd been dealt 4c 8c flop came 5c 6h 7d turn was 3c big pot, 2 guys betting at each other, then one went all in and other folded but i'd folded preflop DAMNIT!!! tho no doubt the 89 woulda beat me or smth :p

Always tell urself that when u folded great hands.... lol... I do :lol

[Valiant23]

Re: how big is enough?

what would anyone else have done?

Preflop? Exactly the same. :ok ;)

[Ovalman]

Re: how big is enough? As I've noted on another thread.... I folded QQ pre flop in a live game last Friday night and was called a few choice names for doing so. A guy similar in chips and in early position raised all in pre flop. I was sitting in mid position and thought and thought and thought about calling, I even asked him to count all his chips before folding. My reasoning was simple. I put him on AK or a strong suited Ace and just as important, there were others to act after me. With AK, I was only slight favourite and my tournament was on the line for a coinflip and had anyone called after me, this would reduce my chances of winning the hand. As it turned out, he won the hand uncontested and turned over JJ. When I told him I had QQ some observers called me an idiot. Most if not all agreed they would have immediately called with QQ but I know I made the correct play (even though it was the wrong decission). My table image vastly improved after this hand. I won a few uncontested pots with hands like ace rag. I went on to win the tournament (although I did catch lucky twice when I was heads up) and vindicated the play by doing so. BTW, For a £5 stake, I rebought once and won £220.

[ThePro19]

Re: how big is enough? Nicely said ovalman, just like Mr V's post. Sometimes you've got to go with your gut feeling, even if it may turn out to be the wrong decision. I remember playing my first 6pak mtt. I got into the money. Had about 16k in chips. Leader joined my table. with about 63k. I was on BB and got dealt KK. Chip leader was 1st to play. He doubled the bet. Everyone else folded, I called. Flop came with an A. He bet 2xBB, I had to fold. He showed Q9 - NOTHING. But still, I made the right choice in my mind.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: how big is enough? Without a doubt you should be willing to lay down QQ preflop on an occasion. It isnt the nuts there are two hands better than yours and people will hold them from time to time certainly and let you know this by their betting. Ive folded Queens a few times. An example being - a decent raise from early position, then a flat call. I reraised with QQ in mid. When it went back round both the 2 in early were all in. It was pretty clear to me that one of them held AA or KK almost certainly so i folded. They showed AA and 1010. If the info presents itself you can lay the QQ down. KK is a different kettle of fish though. A poker player will rarely if ever lay it down preflop. maybe once in their whole life or something. Ive only done it once and I was wrong! I shant be doing it again! The example where I did and was wrong was this. Small raise from early then a decent re-raise. I re-raised on the button. One of the blinds went all in. Both the players who acted before me earlier also were then all in. So there were 3 players all in, 2 of which had the full stacks. I was very confident one guy had AA so i folded. Turned out he has KK just like me and took the pot down. I dont think ill ever lay down KK preflop again tbh. Ive heard stories of people laying down AA preflop believe it or not. I WOULD NEVER EVER do that EVER. It happened on the poker cruise I was recently on actually. Some guy was shortstacked and only one more was to go out before the money began (starting at $5,500). A big stack raised for most of his stack in early. He looked down and saw AA and folded it. He wanted the money so much that he just didnt want to risk it. I can see why but still it smacks of a lack of ambition!

[chelskired]

Re: how big is enough?

Without a doubt you should be willing to lay down QQ preflop on an occasion. It isnt the nuts there are two hands better than yours and people will hold them from time to time certainly and let you know this by their betting. Ive folded Queens a few times. An example being - a decent raise from early position, then a flat call. I reraised with QQ in mid. When it went back round both the 2 in early were all in. It was pretty clear to me that one of them held AA or KK almost certainly so i folded. They showed AA and 1010. If the info presents itself you can lay the QQ down. KK is a different kettle of fish though. A poker player will rarely if ever lay it down preflop. maybe once in their whole life or something. Ive only done it once and I was wrong! I shant be doing it again! The example where I did and was wrong was this. Small raise from early then a decent re-raise. I re-raised on the button. One of the blinds went all in. Both the players who acted before me earlier also were then all in. So there were 3 players all in, 2 of which had the full stacks. I was very confident one guy had AA so i folded. Turned out he has KK just like me and took the pot down. I dont think ill ever lay down KK preflop again tbh. Ive heard stories of people laying down AA preflop believe it or not. I WOULD NEVER EVER do that EVER. It happened on the poker cruise I was recently on actually. Some guy was shortstacked and only one more was to go out before the money began (starting at $5,500). A big stack raised for most of his stack in early. He looked down and saw AA and folded it. He wanted the money so much that he just didnt want to risk it. I can see why but still it smacks of a lack of ambition!

Well said, i saw Valiant raise a pot last night then call an allin with Pkt K's, guy that bet all in showed Pkt K's too!!! Having seen some of the betting patterns before that, i was yelling at the screen for V to fold BUT he was RIGHT TO CALL!......I would have been in 2 minds but V just slammed it in and rightly so:notworthy BUT!! for for the first time EVER, i was honestly thinking...."Pkt A's!....FOLD!" Thats why he's Valiant and i got "Lawn" in me computer:cry

[mrmuzeman]

Re: how big is enough? Yeah Valiant would be right to call there for sure. Folding KK preflop against all but the most unlikely of scenarios is a flaw certainly. Against a lone opponent it just should never happen ever. Also it depends whether its s tourny also. People are more likely to be all in preflop with a hand like AK in a tourny or making a move where as in a cash game being all in preflop with AK is almost always a mistke certainly. All my examples were from cash games btw.

[chelskired]

Re: how big is enough?

Yeah Valiant would be right to call there for sure. Folding KK preflop against all but the most unlikely of scenarios is a flaw certainly. Against a lone opponent it just should never happen ever. Also it depends whether its s tourny also. People are more likely to be all in preflop with a hand like AK in a tourny or making a move where as in a cash game being all in preflop with AK is almost always a mistke certainly. All my examples were from cash games btw.

Sorry, it was the latter stages of a Pot limit tourney and if i remember rightly there was an all in before the the Pkt K's and he then re-raised all in and V called both(Pkt Lady or V may correct me) THATS why i thought it was a good call as IMO i put 1 or other on A's or A/K suited, so putting V at a dis advantage at best.......as i said, thats why he's v and.......etc

[mrmuzeman]

Re: how big is enough? Oh yeah thats a definite call then. I wouldnt put the re-raiser on AA at all, AA would flat call there hoping for action. A re-raise all in after an all in is usually a hand wanting to shut down any futher action to get heads up (for example AK or JJ are the classic two there). You should never lay down KK ever is basically the moral of the tale :lol

[guesswest]

Re: how big is enough? I remember folding AA pre-flop in a tournament. I'd just lost a big pot with a player I just had covered, and had 150 chips left with 4k/2k blinds. I would have needed to double up 5 times in a row just to post a blind, and with one more elimination needed to cash, thought I had more equity in folding. Any example of folding AA in a ring game or cash tournament has to be some utterly bizarre situation like that though, the kind of situation you could play your whole life without ever encountering. The one exception is satellite tournaments - where it can definitely be correct to fold AA or in fact any hand with the board dealt other than the stone cold nuts. Queens are a different story though, you should definitely be able to lay them.

[ThePro19]

Re: how big is enough? I may have mentioned elsewhere once of one of the most bizzare plays I have ever seen. It was last November on my first visit to the Broadway casino in Birmingham. Anyway, we were getting to the latter stages (about 15 or so left). Blinds were 300/600. Everyone folded down to the SB. He had quite a decent stack of chips, leading on our table. He thought about it for a long time then eventually called. BB checked. Flop came 568. SB checked. BB bet 1500. SB folded... and turned over AA. I could half understand why he did it - to protect his chips and didn't want a bad beat - but then why waste 300 in the first place. And as everyone else had folded pre-flop, A big raise would almost certainly have taken the BB off the hand because he would have been protecting his stack even more in order to get into the money. BB was as stunned as anybody - he said that he had hit the 8. In my opinion, that was the worst play I've ever seen with AA.

[robilaruk]

Re: how big is enough? ay? u are ahead and you folded? Crikey you are ultra tight would you fold KK to AK or A big kicker as well? These are JUST the hands you should play (unless on the bubble/ nearly making the FT etc and with a healthy chip stack and lots of desperate players who are gonna be out in the next doz hands or so). and I don't understand your reasoning for the 2nd bit - there were others to play so they might call and beat you? with what exactly? an inferior hand? (for those who don't know) The chances of some one else normally having pocket pair KK or better is 110-1, and AA is 220-1 (but as you put villain no1 on AK/Ax those numbers go WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY higher than that) you want the other muppets to call with KJo, A6s and any smaller PP, and lets think about this for a minute, who is going to call a shove and another call with KJo? and if they are prepared to call you and villian with an inferior hand and you are scared of losing I would be interested in knowing what cards you would play against them? (AA only?). I know that the more players in the pot the worse your odds are, but that thinking should be for you to take when you have QQ in LP and have seen shove-call-call - then your ladies are shite (assuming similar stack sizes to you, if the calls are with shorties I would prolly call it with villian no1 for the sidepot (assuming it was of a decent size) with the hope that the shorties have shoved shite in response to villian and are hoping to get lucky and double up). But IMHO you should not use the excuse that others might call after you and reduce your chances of winning the hand as a decent argument to lay down QQ - that is poor play, you should base your decision of what the villian has and what your chances are of beating him, coupled with tournament position / structure / payout / short stacks and how near to the money you are etc etc etc Nice result BTW, but if you really thought the villian was playing someting like AJ you have got to call here you are a 70/30 fav and u are getting an even money bet. Folks I would really think about this on its own and not be swayed by the great result that Ovalman had - in MOST cases laying down QQ when you put the villian on AK/Ax is a bad mathematical play (esp Ax - u can argue AK back and forth) and will cost you money in the long run - as mentioned there are spots where you would lay them down, but not in this case (unless it was a bubble situation?) Just my thoughts Damo :cheers

My reasoning was simple. I put him on AK or a strong suited Ace and just as important, there were others to act after me. With AK, I was only slight favourite and my tournament was on the line for a coinflip and had anyone called after me, this would reduce my chances of winning the hand.

[Valiant23]

Re: how big is enough? Here you go mate get a load of this then; http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24705 :ok

[robilaruk]

Re: how big is enough? to give a more detailed answer would need to know stack sizes, raises and how many players are left etc. In short probably not, if stack sizes are similar and the ITM is faaaaar away. However, if ITM is close by and they are shorties soon to be out and the raise re-raise account for only 20/25% of my large stack then laying down QQ might be an option if the AI consumes the last 80% But as this is a $5 tounry I am shoving preflop to raise and call with QQ anyway :rollin and (probably) defo calling with QQ to the action you describe. Damo :cheers

would anyone here ever fold KK or QQ preflop for fear of higher pockets or someone catching the ace/king? at what point could you think you might be beat already without the flop being seen? only ask because i just crashed out of a $5 nl mtt, QQ on the BB, button raises, sb calls, i re-raise, button calls, sb re-raises all in, i call, button folds sb turns over AA ... what would anyone else have done?