I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT)

[GaF]

You may have seen on the ladbrokes thread that I've highlighted that in January I made a loss on QQ, JJ and TT - hands that should have positive EV ...... so I need to dig deeper ...... thought I'd share my results here (and hopefully get some more good advice :ok) So - top level to start off with (and just QQ) - I was dealt QQ 25 times, giving a net loss of $20.44 (or 2.04 times the BB per hand). My VP$IP (Voluntarily added money to pot) was 100% ..... On 7 occasions this hand was resolved without seeing a flop. On 4 of these occasions I won, yet on 3 occassions I folded pre flop to a reraise all in. These 7 hands showed a net loss of $2.30 (or 0.82 BB per hand). On 16 Occasions where the flop was seen (and we weren't already all in), I lost $36.04 (or 5.63 times the BB per hand). I won 7 times (by implication losing 9 times). Of the 9 I lost, 3 went to showdown and 6 I folded before the showdown. I certainly look weak!!!! Not sure what I should really be looking at now - so I think I'll sumarise all 25 hands (forgive me if this is rambling a bit - I'm typing as I'm thinking) (17.60) - My biggest loss - went to showdown - am happy with the way I played this. 1.38 - Overcard (K) flopped - I had position - opponent checked - I bet - he folded 2.85 - No overcards flopped - I had position - opponent bet 30% of pot - I raised to Pot plus his bet, he folded 2.04 - 2 opponents - no overcards flopped - I had position - both checked - I raised pot size - they both folded (3.20) - 3 opponents - I was 2nd to act (BB) - had raised to 6x BB preflop - AA6 flopped - 1st checked - I bet 60% Pot - 1 fold 2 calls. Turn rag. First player bet 80% of Pot, all in, I folded - button called. River Rag - SB shows AQo (trip A's) - I got out relatively cheaply - I played aggressively but let it go - not too dissatisfied with way I played it. 1.94 - 1 opponent - he had position - flop 334 - I bet 120% pot :loon - opponent folded (1.20) - 1 opponent - I had position - I raised to 6x BB preflop - flop was A75 all clubs - opponent raises 10% pot - I call. Turn Ten Clubs - opponent raises 40% pot - I fold. Maybe I could have been more aggressive and reraised post flop? 3.09 - 3 opponents - I was UTG - I raised to 5xBB pre flop - flop was Jd6d5h - I raised pot size - everyone folded. (3.60) - 1 Opponent - I reraised preflop to 8x BB (following minimum raise) - flop was AKJ all hearts (I didn't have Qh) - I bet 50% pot - opponent flat called. Turn 8h - I checked - opponent checked. River 5c - I checked opponent bet 35% pot - I folded - any A, any K, any Heart beat me - didn't have value to call? (1.00) - 1 opponent - AsJsTd flopped - I checked, opponent bet 90% pot - I folded. (1.00) - 2 opponents - I raised 5x BB preflop - AT5 flopped. I was 2nd to act. All check. 5 on Turn. UTG bets 30% pot. I fold. 3.20 - 1 Opponent - I have position - Raised 5x BB preflop - flopped 743 all clubs - I have Q clubs. UTG checks, I bet 40% pot. UTG calls. turn Qh (I have trips) - UTG checks, I bet 25% pot - UTG calls. River rag. UTG checks, I bet 25% pot - UTG folds. (1.00) - 3 opponents - I am UTG - Flop A97 - I check, next player pot sized raise, 1 caller, 1 fold, I fold. Aggressive player showdowns QTo (i.e. nothing) and is beat by A8o (2 pair) 1.66 - 1 opponent - I am SB v BB - Flop A65 - I bet 50% pot - opponent folds (12.20) - 1 opponent (I have position) - preflop raise (me), reraise and rereraise(me). Flop Th6c8c. Opponent bets $1.80. I raise to put opponent all in. My QQ is beating QT - Turn T, River J - Trip Tens beats my QQ. I was well ahead when we went all in - can't complain about my play!! (11.40) - 2 opponents - I have position - preflop: rosie (who has signed up here as pokerose) raises 4x BB - I reraise to 12x BB, 1 caller and rosie calls. Flop 6hJd4d - first 2 check, I raise 65% pot - 1 fold - rosie calls. As hits turn. Rosie checks, I check. Qd on turn - my trips Q go ahead of the AA, but Rosie hits nut flush. Rosie checks (not to trap - she doesn't like taking money off people she chats to!!!! :loon ;) ) I bet 25% of pot - Rosie (with the nuts) calls (Rosie - there's no room for genorosity in Poker!! As I said, I'd have tried to take every cent off of you!!!) I should have perhaps been more wary of the flush, however again, don't feel I played that too badly. Ok - that's all the hands where a flop was seen (and we weren't all in pre flop) - Any interesting trends coming out there? I raised between a minimum of 5x BB on every occasion here. Change of mind on what I said earlier - looking at this, I don't think I lacked aggression and I don't think I was pushed off pots too easily!! Am tempted to say that 25 hands isn't a lot and maybe it's small numbers and not bad play.....but that's the easy way out....and if we combine the QQ, JJ and TT, then I the sample size is getting bigger and the trend looks clear...... For interest, the (17.20) - my biggest losing hand on QQ - I'm happy how I played this, but full hand history is below..... Any thoughts?

** Game ID 392922901 starting - 2006-01-01 12:35:15 ** Gold Star [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money - alice18 sitting in seat 1 with $6.30 - pokerbonde sitting in seat 2 with $32.96 - swisch sitting in seat 3 with $8.09 - pokerwell sitting in seat 4 with $33.45 [Dealer] - puggur306 sitting in seat 5 with $7.52 - Somnamna sitting in seat 6 with $30.71 - hittaAAA sitting in seat 7 with $17.60 - Telepe sitting in seat 8 with $20.55 - Haley sitting in seat 9 with $7.84 - Redhomer sitting in seat 10 with $21.00 puggur306 posted the small blind - $0.10 Somnamna posted the big blind - $0.20 alice18 posted to play - $0.20 ** Dealing card to Telepe: Queen of Spades, Queen of Clubs hittaAAA raised - $1.20 Telepe raised - $3.60 Haley folded Redhomer folded alice18 folded pokerbonde folded swisch folded pokerwell folded puggur306 folded Somnamna folded hittaAAA called - $3.60 ** Dealing the flop: Jack of Diamonds, 5 of Spades, 6 of Spades hittaAAA checked Telepe bet - $8.00 hittaAAA called - $8.00 ** Dealing the turn: Ace of Spades hittaAAA went all-in - $6.00 Telepe called - $6.00 ** Dealing the river: 3 of Diamonds hittaAAA shows: King of Diamonds, Ace of Diamonds Telepe mucks: hittaAAA wins $33.95 from the main pot End of game 392922901

[GaF]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) PS - Don't go easy on me - I've "exposed myself" in this way because I want to improve - if you disagree with a play I made, then please say so - don't try and spare my feelings!!!! Rip into me!!!

[Mivi]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) I'll be honest in the fact that I've not read all of your post :$ But my first thought was that you're not raising enough. Tens Jacks Queens and Kings for that matter are very easily dominated by someone limping in with Ace rag. Personally I raise more with these than I do with AA.

[BillyHills]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) GaF, i really cant see a lot wrong with how you played those hands to be honest, i would put it down to just bad luck. Cards do tend to work in cycles and i find if you analyse it too much it starts to prey on your mind and then effect your game, whatever happened the last time you had QQ it doesnt change the value of that hand the next time they arrive. Maybe your right and if you had 100 hands worth of info the figures would look better. I also find that your more prone to remember the times the big hands get beat, thats because the chances are the biggest pots were involved also. Try to work on the positives, Poker can be a mind game and you really dont want to be having any negative thoughts when you get dealt QQ. BH

[laidbackbloke]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) i was starting writing a post but i'm about 10 years behind on my beauty sleep ;) ............................... i'll put down a few comments about specific hands tommorrow ( i thought you could have bet a bit stronger on the flop a couple of times) :ok generally though i wouldn't worry too much ............................... I've played lots of hands far worse that those ones :lol As for the last hand your opponent made a poor call and got lucky ........................ its just annoying that it always seems to be the big pots that the muppets get lucky on :@ Its another reason i don't like $0.10/$0.20 its harder to read people than on 0.25/$0.50 or $0.50/$1 as a lot of them don't even realise that they are bluffing/ semi bluffing .............................. if they can't tell, how the hell are you meant to :unsure good play often doesn't have the desired effect as people tend to think .......... what the hell its only a dollar and call anyway :\

[GaF]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) Mivi - My MINIMUM raise pre flop was 5x BB (i.e. $1 - this is on $0.10/$0.20 tables) - surely that's aggressive enough? I agree with raising more with these hands than with AA - typically with QQ I raise 5x BB, but with AA 3x BB. BH - Cheers :ok Just to stress - all the information comes from Poker Tracker - I'm not relying on memory at all - the information I have is comprehensive. As I said (and you said) - looking at these hands, I do seem to have been unlucky, however I'm also worried that I'm winning small pots and losing large pots ...... though the 2 biggest losses could easily have been winning hands, then it would have been a different story.... so it only comes down to 2 hands .... not a lot...... but how long do you wait before accepting personal errors rather than blaming luck? LBB - looking forward to your comments :ok Don't be too harsh on Rosie {Pokerose) - she's one of us now (and hopefully will say hello soon :ok) - She "lives" on the tables at laddies - and really is the most friendly person I've seen on any tables anywhere. As I suggested, she does lack a bit of killer instinct (Rosie - if you "like" someone - you can't let them off the hook when you have them beat!! :loon) - but she's not a muppet (and her bankroll on her blog shows her to be a winning player overall at this level :ok) Her call preflop was a little loose - however there are arguments for her call postflop (my bet could easily look like a continuation bet - her outs were any diamond or an Ace - she had 11 outs - 2 cards to come - about 44% chance of hitting?) - anyway - looking forward to hearing which hands you thought I could/should have been stronger on the flop:ok

[legendkiller]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) Count yourself lucky GaF, my biggest single losing hand is KK ! However, I have also analysed these hands before and have the opion that on these hands an (overly) aggressive raise drives out all the rubbish and leaves only quality hands to play against (AA, A* in my case - AA, KK, A*, K* in your case). I have recently started to play KK less aggressively, than I have in the past. This had had two benefits - firstly I lose less when I end up against a big hand, and secondly less quality hands are drawn into the pots to increase the value for the winner. It does have the flip side that when winning, you do win slightly less, but the times I have made a set post flop can make up for this.

[Mivi]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT)

Mivi - My MINIMUM raise pre flop was 5x BB (i.e. $1 - this is on $0.10/$0.20 tables) - surely that's aggressive enough?

My bad then :$ That'll teach me to not to read things.....

[laidbackbloke]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) Ok firstly i'm not claiming to be an expert, and without having a read on any of the player i can't say exactly how i'd play some of the hands, but for what its worth here are my thoughts on a few of them

(3.20) - 3 opponents - I was 2nd to act (BB) - had raised to 6x BB preflop - AA6 flopped - 1st checked - I bet 60% Pot - 1 fold 2 calls. Turn rag. First player bet 80% of Pot, all in, I folded - button called. River Rag - SB shows AQo (trip A's) - I got out relatively cheaply - I played aggressively but let it go - not too dissatisfied with way I played it.

nothing wrong with this as you had a go, then dropped the hand without it costing you too much................. but with 3 callers ( of 6 times the bb) i'd figure there was a decent chance of an ace being out there, so i may have checked and hoped for a free card or folded to a bet

(1.20) - 1 opponent - I had position - I raised to 6x BB preflop - flop was A75 all clubs - opponent raises 10% pot - I call. Turn Ten Clubs - opponent raises 40% pot - I fold. Maybe I could have been more aggressive and reraised post flop?

i'd re-raise on the flop or fold. flat calling isn't the best move as your hand is likely to become weaker as more cards come so you would have to fold to any decent bet on the turn .......................... as you did.

(3.60) - 1 Opponent - I reraised preflop to 8x BB (following minimum raise) - flop was AKJ all hearts (I didn't have Qh) - I bet 50% pot - opponent flat called. Turn 8h - I checked - opponent checked. River 5c - I checked opponent bet 35% pot - I folded - any A, any K, any Heart beat me - didn't have value to call?

If i decided to bet on the flop i'd make it a pot sized bet, giving my opponent a harder choice to make. 50% looks weak ..................... thats fine if you want called, but here you want him to fold.

(12.20) - 1 opponent (I have position) - preflop raise (me), reraise and rereraise(me). Flop Th6c8c. Opponent bets $1.80. I raise to put opponent all in. My QQ is beating QT - Turn T, River J - Trip Tens beats my QQ. I was well ahead when we went all in - can't complain about my play!! (11.40) - 2 opponents - I have position - preflop: rosie (who has signed up here as pokerose) raises 4x BB - I reraise to 12x BB, 1 caller and rosie calls. Flop 6hJd4d - first 2 check, I raise 65% pot - 1 fold - rosie calls. As hits turn. Rosie checks, I check. Qd on turn - my trips Q go ahead of the AA, but Rosie hits nut flush. Rosie checks (not to trap - she doesn't like taking money off people she chats to!!!! :loon ;) ) I bet 25% of pot - Rosie (with the nuts) calls (Rosie - there's no room for genorosity in Poker!! As I said, I'd have tried to take every cent off of you!!!) I should have perhaps been more wary of the flush, however again, don't feel I played that too badly. For interest, the (17.20) - my biggest losing hand on QQ - I'm happy how I played this, but full hand history is below..... Any thoughts?

overall though you haven't got anything to worry about .......................... if you look at your big losses twice your opponents got lucky and against rosie you were always going to lose money................ it was just a matter of how much :\ Basically you need more hands in order to be able to make a real judgement as a few big losses can really skew the figures, but it looks like you are doing fine to me. I remember a few hands i put in the bad beat thread where i lost full buy-ins at $0.25/$0.50 with KK, when i had trip k's and 2 opponents made gutshot straights on river, I had trip k's v trip 8's and opponent made quads on river :pukeand KK v all-in bluff with 85o preflop when he made a full house. :cry this all happened in a short period of time and would have really skewed the figures of profit/ loss for kings, but i would have played them exactly the same again and won the vast majority of times ............................. just not these times :( ...........................as i said before it always seems to be the big hands muppets get lucky :\

[laidbackbloke]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT)

(11.40) - 2 opponents - I have position - preflop: rosie (who has signed up here as pokerose) raises 4x BB - I reraise to 12x BB, 1 caller and rosie calls. Flop 6hJd4d - first 2 check, I raise 65% pot - 1 fold - rosie calls. As hits turn. Rosie checks, I check. Qd on turn - my trips Q go ahead of the AA, but Rosie hits nut flush. Rosie checks (not to trap - she doesn't like taking money off people she chats to!!!! :loon ;) ) I bet 25% of pot - Rosie (with the nuts) calls (Rosie - there's no room for genorosity in Poker!! As I said, I'd have tried to take every cent off of you!!!) I should have perhaps been more wary of the flush, however again, don't feel I played that too badly.

Just realised i missread this i though you said rosie had AA ...........oops................ok ................. with 2 diamonds on the board i would definately make a pot sized bet on flop. 65% looks weaker and invites a call with the nut flush draw.

[Valiant23]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) I'm no expert either, but have lengthy opinions, right or wrong is debatable.

1-(3.20) - 3 opponents - I was 2nd to act (BB) - had raised to 6x BB preflop - AA6 flopped - 1st checked - I bet 60% Pot - 1 fold 2 calls. Turn rag. First player bet 80% of Pot, all in, I folded - button called. River Rag - SB shows AQo (trip A's) - I got out relatively cheaply - I played aggressively but let it go - not too dissatisfied with way I played it. 2-(1.20) - 1 opponent - I had position - I raised to 6x BB preflop - flop was A75 all clubs - opponent raises 10% pot - I call. Turn Ten Clubs - opponent raises 40% pot - I fold. Maybe I could have been more aggressive and reraised post flop? 3-(3.60) - 1 Opponent - I reraised preflop to 8x BB (following minimum raise) - flop was AKJ all hearts (I didn't have Qh) - I bet 50% pot - opponent flat called. Turn 8h - I checked - opponent checked. River 5c - I checked opponent bet 35% pot - I folded - any A, any K, any Heart beat me - didn't have value to call? 4-(1.00) - 1 opponent - AsJsTd flopped - I checked, opponent bet 90% pot - I folded. 5-(1.00) - 2 opponents - I raised 5x BB preflop - AT5 flopped. I was 2nd to act. All check. 5 on Turn. UTG bets 30% pot. I fold. Any thoughts?

1 - 4 players, and the flop must have given one of the other 3 trips at the least. I would say then you have gone from a v. strong to drawing hand - you need to hit 1 of the 2 Q's to make the full house. You know I'm not the best at quoting percentages of cards coming out, but I think you have a 4% chance of improving your hand. surely you have to fold? 60% of the pot is (imo) way to big a bet. 2 - 10% of the pot is a very small bet for such a flop. Against 1 opponent I would be inclined to agree with you. If they guy had a made flush he should be making you pay, but 10% bet suggests he was drawing. If you make a big bet there you ask him the questions. By just calling you let him take the initiative. 3 - The flop went very much against you and you put in another fairly strong bet - similar example in my opinion to no.1. 4 - What I would have done. 5 - Did you have position? Were the other players loose? Is that how that player normaly plays A's? I think there are 2 examples here of the wrong play (1 & 3). I think in example 5 you are starting to doubt the strength of queens, but again (imo) at the wrong time. I'd be tempted to suggest that if you reversed your action in hands 1&3 with those in 5 you'd possibly be looking at queens in a more positive light. :welcome Pokerose - If you have played on the SO/Boss Media cash tables I have been on a table with you - your 'style' or table manners reminds me of someone.:D

[GaF]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) Cheers guys :ok Plenty for me to digest and think about here :ok

[mrmuzeman]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) I wouldnt worry, 25 for a sample is nowhere near enough to draw a conclusion from imo

[Pokerose]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) For what its worth, I think you played the QQ hand under discussion well. I think I played it extremely badly and got lucky. But, thats poker right? I think my lack of ruthlessness is a big problem at the moment - combined with the fact that I'm not playing anywhere near as well as I can (we're not talking playing B or C game, rather D,E,F and occasionally J as opposed to "A" game), but thats for another thread. Anyhoo, I've said hello. And, if you insist, I'll take you for every cent next time - I understand some people like pain.:spank

[GaF]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) :welcome Rosie - good to see you found us!!!

I think my lack of ruthlessness is a big problem at the moment

Has to be - you can't let people off the hook when you have the nuts!!! You didn't want to take my money (though you got away with it when I bet into you a bit!!) - but you didn't see the same charity from me here - http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showpost.php?p=340822&postcount=61 - if you play well and I play well, then it will be a lot of "swings and roundabouts" and we'll share the big pots - if you don't capitalise on your big pots, then I'll win big pots but you won't!!! Do you think many of your buddies on laddies soft play you when they have you beat? (or is it just me who's especially ruthless??)

And' date=' if you insist, I'll take you for every cent next time - I understand some people like pain.:spank[/quote'] Oh I do :tongue2 Give it your best shot Rosie ;)

[Pokerose]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) Softplay me? They'd have to beat me first:tongue2

[slapdash]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT)

(or is it just me who's especially ruthless??)

:$ Well, I didn't want to say anything, but it's rare a day goes by when I play on Ladbrokes and don't hear somebody moaning about that ******* Telepe and how he'll do anything to win. :welcome Pokerose!

[GaF]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT)

Softplay me? They'd have to beat me first:tongue2

Silly me - my mistake!!! :lol :lol

[danno375]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) It seems that at the moment I keep losing on KK or AA. If I have a KK some donkey calls with A4 etc but what ticks me off at the moment is the amount of times I hold KK and go all in after a large raise from someone with AK. Now I know he has a right to call and I wouldn't be too peed off if her hits an ace. What is happening all the time is that cards fall out 10 J Q!! Can't win with good cards these days. It is all in russian roulette every game! Now where did I put my retirement thread?

[mcgin]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) GaF, all in all I think your play is good, I think its down to luck that you are loosing, but I have a few comments. I reckon you are being too agressive pre flop. Your bets should be 3 - 5x BB. The large bets you are making are chasing out the moderate drawing hands that you want to enter the pot (things like JT for example). By betting less of course you're going to end up with more people in the pot, but then you will have to adapt your post flop play, but you appear to be disciplined enough to get out of hairy situations so I think you'll be okay. My other comment on your preflop play is that it is extremely tight and I think it is probably the main reason (outside of luck) why you have such a negative amount on QQ. Folding QQ 3 times out of 25 (12%) is far too tight. All your afraid of in these situations is AA or KK. Yes AK is another tough one, but you are still favourite. In a tournament it can be correct to play tight like this so that you aren't knocked out of the tournament, but in live play? I don't think so. You are almost always a favourite to win with QQ and unless you have information to the contrary from your opponent your best play is to call. So, assuming you aren't sitting with your entire bank roll at the table then loosing a big pot when someone goes all in and draws out on you shouldn't matter all that much, it's just luck, but you had the best of it and were most likely to win the hand. If they show AA & KK you are destined to loose alot on confrontations like this, and its something you have to accept, just as you accept the big wins when you are on the other side :) Now onto individual hands:

(1.00) - 2 opponents - I raised 5x BB preflop - AT5 flopped. I was 2nd to act. All check. 5 on Turn. UTG bets 30% pot. I fold.

I reckon an incorrect play on your part here. You're scared of only an A or a 5 in this situation. It's unlikely a single A would slow play in this position on the flop with 2 players, and someone with a 5 is unlikely to be in the hand at all given the large raise PF (unless he holds 55). Given the relatively small raise only after both you and the other opponent have shown weakness this could quite likely be a shot at stealing the pot. You're getting > 4-1 to see this bet and you'll have position on the river, I reckon an easy call. Hand is easy to lay down should the other guy in the hand do anything, or some resistance from UTG comes after the card, but it's very possible you'll get all the way to the river by just calling this bet.

3.20 - 1 Opponent - I have position - Raised 5x BB preflop - flopped 743 all clubs - I have Q clubs. UTG checks, I bet 40% pot. UTG calls. turn Qh (I have trips) - UTG checks, I bet 25% pot - UTG calls. River rag. UTG checks, I bet 25% pot - UTG folds.

Reckon you should have been more aggressive on the turn. Somewhere in the region of 50-60% would have been good. If this guy is drawing to a flush it's likely he is beating you with an A or K, and you don't want to give him the odds he needs to draw out on you (And I think you are giving them here even if they are implied odds, can you say you wouldn't call a bet on the end with Q high flush?). Of course he could be only holding a pair or a (very unlikely) straight draw, in which case you want to suck him in and 25% is probably about right, but the most likely holding (based on the passiveness post flop and the willingness to enter the pot preflop) is the better flush draw which you definitly want him to pay for.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) i agree with valiant ,gaf .hands 1 and 3 you were a tad overaggressive,especially hand 3. a smallish bet probably would have got rid of them if they had no clubs, but the larger bet is always dangerous ,because if hes got a high heart hes probly gonna call . ive been busted on high pps the last 6 times ive had them ,all ks or as,and two of these have been in live play,so couldnt even blame dodgy site (the best of these was aa that was eventually beaten by str8 flush k high) . i think over the course of time these things even up ,as long as your still playing these hands as well as you are, things will turn your way on these pretty soon.:hope

[GaF]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) Well, the huge amount of replies here (which is what I wanted :ok) is great - however become a little daunting - I keep meaning to come back to it and spend some quality time going through, interpreting and understanding everyones comments - and I WILL!!! Just a general comment - I think the "overaggressive" comment is very fair - and something I'm aware of. It works well in the early stages of tournaments - an overbet with a strong hand is likely to win a hand - and keep you out of trouble - which is ideal in the early stages of a tourney - it is most certainly not the optimal play on a cash table though......however I find it difficult to switch off from that ..... on the other hand, this is micro limit tables and it's shocking how many callers you get with a large overbet from marginal hands....... Because this is the way I have always played however, my post flop play is quite poor - and when I play less aggressively, I do tend to get myself into trouble after the flop ............. but the answer is to improve my post flop play, not to keep overbetting......... Other thing I wanted to flag - when I first made the comment in the laddies thread (but forgot to mention at the start of this thread) - my percentage win rates with QQ, JJ and TT was significantly lower than I would have expected (http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showpost.php?p=355405&postcount=124). Basically QQ won for me only 48% of the time - if I am less aggressive, then I would expect that percentage to fall even further....... Someone mentioned I was too weak on the 3 hands I got out of pre flop (and yes again I have to agree!! It is unlikely I was behind that often!!!) .... however it's difficult to call an all-in with QQ pre flop - it's hard to imagine anything other than KK or AA - maybe I just need to bite my lip and decide QQ is a hand worth calling anything preflop (at these limits and in the absence of other info on the players....) Cheers for the feedback so far everyone :ok I've got more to think about than I could possible have hoped!!!

[slapdash]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT)

Someone mentioned I was too weak on the 3 hands I got out of pre flop (and yes again I have to agree!! It is unlikely I was behind that often!!!) .... however it's difficult to call an all-in with QQ pre flop - it's hard to imagine anything other than KK or AA - maybe I just need to bite my lip and decide QQ is a hand worth calling anything preflop (at these limits and in the absence of other info on the players....)

Frankly I have no idea what players at these limits will have when they go all-in. And that isn't meant to mean that they're likely to do it on random hands. I just don't know whether they usually will have AA or KK or whether they're likely to do it with much weaker hands. Maybe you just have to bite the bullet and invest some money to find out?

[ThePro19]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) Jeez GaF, I thought i wrote long posts, but you definitely are the master at them. Anyway, as I've said many, many times in various threads, no matter what cards you have, no matter how well you play, you'll always get called by morons who think this is just a glorified game of snap for money. And, unfortunately, these morons always seem to end up winners (despite everyones belief that good play will win in the end). In a live game I'm convinced you would win a lot more often. You are obviously a good player. I, like most others here, feel you played it right. I've got to the stage that even if I have AK or AQ (something you would normally raise with) I will only call and see what comes on the flop. Maybe it's time to start thinking about doing the same thing with QQ, JJ or 10 10... but, nah, that would be stupid. Just be prepared to lose to morons who call with any old rubbish (and I mean with any old rubbish) and hit big time.

[slapdash]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT)

Jeez GaF' date=' I thought i wrote long posts, but you definitely are the master at them.[/quote'] You should look at some of my posts in Systems and Strategy. :lol

[GaF]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT)

no matter what cards you have' date=' no matter how well you play, you'll always get called by morons who think this is just a glorified game of snap for money. [/quote'] And that suits me great everytime :ok I don't believe that online poker is fixed and am more than happy to play for the long run against people like that........ If people wish to end up all in with AJo against my QQ, I'll take it every time - ESPECIALLY on cash tables where short run is less important than tourneys ....... what I don't want is to end up all in with QQ against KK or AA.......

[robilaruk]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) EXACTLY - spot on GaF I have wisely invested my dollar up winnings on the 25c/50c cash tables and I overbet the pot every time with AA/KK and have at least 2 callers - they are mad - and I shove when i have the nuts, and am amazed what the muppets call with! Nice tho - as the BR is growing :rollin Damo :cheers

And that suits me great everytime :ok I don't believe that online poker is fixed and am more than happy to play for the long run against people like that........ If people wish to end up all in with AJo against my QQ, I'll take it every time - ESPECIALLY on cash tables where short run is less important than tourneys ....... what I don't want is to end up all in with QQ against KK or AA.......

[robilaruk]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) see what I mean about muppets? this is why I overbet when i have the best hand :) Damo ederf is at seat 1 with 46.25 harley555 is at seat 2 with 42.00 robilaruk is at seat 3 with 113.50 Mulltali is at seat 4 with 9.20 Kostya is at seat 5 with 13.52 G_River is at seat 6 with 46.00 LagerDCFC is at seat 7 with 54.85 bachitut is at seat 8 with 88.32 DarkLord25 is at seat 9 with 27.20 Luckyone73 is at seat 10 with 35.00 bachitut posts the large blind 0.50 LagerDCFC posts the small blind 0.25 LagerDCFC: --, -- DarkLord25: --, -- Luckyone73: --, -- pederf: --, -- harley555: --, -- robilaruk: Jc, As Mulltali: --, -- Kostya: --, -- G_River: --, -- Pre-flop: DarkLord25: Fold Luckyone73: Fold pederf: Call 0.50 harley555: Call 0.50 robilaruk: Raise 2.00 Mulltali: Fold Kostya: Fold G_River: Raise 3.50 LagerDCFC: Fold pederf: Call 3.50 harley555: Fold robilaruk: Call 3.50 Flop (Board: Ad, Jd, 6s): pederf: Check robilaruk: Check G_River: Bet 5.00 pederf: Fold robilaruk: Raise 10.00 G_River: Call 10.00 Turn (Board: Ad, Jd, 6s, 2c): robilaruk: Bet 12.50 G_River: All in robilaruk: Call 32.50 River (Board: Ad, Jd, 6s, 2c, 10s): Showdown: robilaruk shows: Jc, As (two pair, Aces and Jacks) G_River shows: Js, Qc (a pair of Jacks) Mainpot: robilaruk wins the pot of 93.25 with two pair, Aces and Jacks (3.00 rake were taken for this hand)

[Valiant23]

Re: I'm losing on QQ!!!! (and JJ and TT) To be fair mate I'd do exactly the same thing and walk into AA.:wall :lol :lol :lol