Bad play or bad luck?

[ThePro19]

Just played a 6pak on littlewoods. 3rd hand I got KJ. I've got 978 chips (was on BB 1st hand and SB 2nd hand... had to fold both pre-flop). Called the BB of 15. Flop comes K J 10. One player bets minimum of 15. I raise to 150. Get called by another player. First player then goes all-in for 985, just more than me. I call. 3rd player folds. He shows J10. 4th card - 3 (I think). 5th card - 10. Bad play of bad luck? The next game (6pak again), again a few hands in, I get 22. I'm first to play so I raise to 250 hoping to scare everyone off. I would normall fold 22, but as it's only 6 players and I'm first, decided to play it. Get called by one player. Flop comes 456. With the flop so low, I've got to think I'm ahead. If he'd had a pp I'm sure he'd have raised. I go all-in (I've got about 250 chips more than he has). He calls. He shows 34d. Same question, bad play or bad luck? But more importantly, HOW THE HELL CAN SOMEONE CALL 250 with a 34! I bet that was the worst had of the 6 players. This is what makes internet poker sooooooooooooo ******** crap. I just wish I could give it up and do something more worthwhile.

[brael]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? My thoughts? Bad luck on the first hand... you were ahead on the flop but he probably thought he was too as he was also holding 2 pair... he just got lucky on the river. 2nd hand I'm less sure about. There were always going to be overcards on the flop and you really needed another 2 to get out. The flop suited your opponent better. Unfortunately, a big raise doesn't always scare people off as we all know to our cost! :lol If you had no reason to think the other guy would go with you then it may have been a decent call but if he's played liked that on previous hands then you should have binned them. :ok

[Ovalman]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? First one - unlucky, but why throw all your chips in when the blinds are so small? Second one - 22 is OK to flat call but doesn't really have much value to raise with UTG when 6 players remaining, any caller is most certainly ahead of you and at best your only 50/50. Again, sticking all your chips in is not good play.

[DC]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? Sitting with top 2pair when there is so blatantly a straight on for someone else is always a tricky one. Sure you can make your full house but the odds are slim. When the other guy went all in I'd assume he had AQ, even though he limped in originally. Did you consider this? Maybe you thought he had AK and thought your hand was stronger. I've also had this situation and the other guy hit trips on the flop, so his all-in was definitlely a tricky read. However he only had a weaker 2 pair and got lucky. I'd say it was bad play to call his all so early in a game but very bad luck that your hand didn't win against his. I have to say though in 6pack games there is more aggression and these all or nothing scenario's crop up a hell of a lot and I never play these for that reason, I prefer 10-seaters where you get a bit more breathing room if you like. The second hand was unfortunate that his rubbish beat your pair. I'm no expert but in future I'd say before you make a big move like raising with 22 with 5 players to call after you, ask yourself what is going to appear on the flop to improve your hand if someone calls? Good luck and keep at it. DC

[Valiant23]

Re: Bad play or bad luck?

Sitting with top 2pair when there is so blatantly a straight on for someone else is always a tricky one. Sure you can make your full house but the odds are slim. When the other guy went all in I'd assume he had AQ, even though he limped in originally. Did you consider this?..........so his all-in was definitlely a tricky read. However he only had a weaker 2 pair and got lucky. I'd say it was bad play to call his all so early in a game but very bad luck that your hand didn't win against his.

1st Hand

• Risky call
• Lucky to be up against J 10 and not AQ.
• Very unlucky that you lost the race.

2nd Hand I will play 22 in a short-handed game, but UTG you either make a risky all in (blind steal), or flat call with the express intention of seeing the flop and making trips. Not worth wasting too many chips on imo, though.

[GaF]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? In both hands you've made large overbets - 10 x BB (and more!!) - IMO these bets are too big when the blinds are small (or most other times come to that) - you're risking too much for too little gain!!!

[jomell]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? Yes i agree its not worth the risk early on in a game when the blinds are so low.(unless you have got the nuts) As for the pocket pair 2's,if you get a call you are nearly always going to be behind after the flop. I see so many all ins after about 2mins into a game,and these are in £20 tournaments :eek Freerolls i can understand.

[ThePro19]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? Hmmmm. A lot to think about. As you all seem to agree with each other, I guess I need to look at changing my play. However, I must now ask the question... if you don't take risks now and again and only play the nuts, then how can you expect to win a STT with so few starting chips? Sometimes I've gone 35 hands without playing one because of poor cards or folding to a raise. I had considered that the other player had AQ, but I decided it was a risk I had to take. As for the 22, winning 22 chips was better than winning nothing. If I had to to another pp or a couple of high cards, I wouldn't have minded so much. But to be called by 34 and lose, well, that's just sickening. I am generally a very tight player, so much so that I will even just call the BB pre-flop with AK or AQ, because in my opinion it is no better than 23. If I raised pre-flop with AK and got called with 23, there's a 50-50 chance that the 23 will hit. I guess it's what makes this game so frustrating, yet, at the same time exhilerating. Thanks for all your comments, I'll bear them in mind. Yo uall seem to be making a profit on the internet, I'm not. Having said that, I'm mainly doing it for fun; it's a lot closer to home than the closest casino, and games don't start at 9pm in the evening and last for 5 hours, another advantage. What I can't understand is why my very profitable live game cannot be transferred to the internet game.

[GaF]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? Don't confuse Tight or Loose with Passive or Aggressive. If you are a tight player then it means you play few hands (less than about 20%) - if you are loose then it means you play a lot of starting hands. If you are Passive then it means you call frequently. If you are aggressive then it means you raise frequently. You say that you are usually a tight player, but then go on to describe a passive play. I think you meant you are passive rather than Tight. Passive is generally poor and will usually be a losing player. Aggressive play is a lot harder to play against, and usually more successful. Pre flop, a raise of 5x the BB is considered VERY aggressive. So far as taking chances are concerned - would you prefer to gamble to win $0.30 (i.e. when blinds are $0.20/$0.10) or to win $300 (i.e. when blinds are $200/$100)? You can't gamble all of the time - because the other players will notice and make a stand - so I'd rather gamble when the blinds are worth winning!!! Now you may say winning $0.30 is winning $0.30 - but if you are risking all in of $15 for this, then you will either win $0.30 or lose $15!!!!! The risk to reward ratio is too poor to make this a good play.

[ThePro19]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? Gaf - I did mean I play tight; I play very few starting hands. But, by playing tight, I feel that you can also bluff. One thing I rarely take into account is pot size and whether it worth winning. That's because I consider EVERYTHING worth winning, be it 30 chips or 300 chips. What I guess I don't always consider is, is it worth losing 900 chips for 30 chips. And the answer to that, as you all say, is most definitely no. Again, this is something I do a lot better in live games. Maybe it's because here I don't have real chips in front of me, I don't know. Anyway, just finished a £10 6pak... and won. So, that's 2 $10 losses followed by a £45 win... a profit of about £33. I would love to play a tourney with you guys (no one outside of PL'ers) some time be it internet or live (I'd prefer live) and that way we can see how each other plays. You all sound like good players, unlike most of the crap we find on the internet. I'm not sure I come across as the player I really am, probably becasue I only tell you how I lose, not how I win. Maybe the next PL freeroll, or one of the dollar-up tourneys. Speaking of which, hope to see you there tomorrow evening.

[Valiant23]

Re: Bad play or bad luck?

I'm not sure I come across as the player I really am, probably becasue I only tell you how I lose, not how I win.

Very good point - I haven't come across you online at all I don't think, so I'm just acting on info you give. A lot of the reasons we know each others game is because although we play twice a week in the dollar up, we also have come across each other a lot on the tables. Even so, I wouldn't classify other players on here (not that Gaf did), because I think that is down to personal perception. I would only give advice as to a personal point of view.

[GaF]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? There are the PL Exclusive Freerolls, and we have had a couple of PL leagues - so you'll get a chance :ok From time to time, we have also created private STT's when there's nothing much else going on - at the momenth though, there always seems loads going on!!!!!

[GaF]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? And you're right - the tighter you play, the more likely you are to get away with a bluff (as I did on TV against the Pro's :nana :cow) - EXCEPT against poor players who don't notice how tight you are playing!!!!

[guesswest]

Re: Bad play or bad luck? I think a good summary of what people are getting at here is that those plays don't balance well in terms of risk-reward ratio. Which is just to say the risks outweigh the rewards when it needs to be the other way around. You need to take chances in a STT for sure, but I think that's an entirely seperate issue to analysing risk-reward. If you can get someone to fold for 100 why bet 300? There can be some logic to overbetting in terms of upping your chances of getting big calls when you hit, and having more people scared of you when the blinds get more worth stealing - but you'll have to make a lot of big decisions in every game if you go that route, and you have to be able to get away from hands with a lot of chips in the middle on a consistent basis.