Internet Sites Fixed???

[NIGWAFC]

Okay, having played on the tables for a number of months now, Im now becoming extremely suspicious of the hands that are being dealt. Maybe its just my pessimistic nature, but Ive experienced a lot of 'strange' results recently. Just to explain, I play on the min/max tables and started with the 25/50p - and did extremely well in the beginning - being dealt extremely good hands on more occasions than not and was up every day for about 2 weeks. Then for about the next 4 weeks things took a turn for the worse and it all went sour. Having gained a bit of experience on the lower tables I decided to chance a go on the higher tables, the $1,$2 tables - and low and behold for the first 2 weeks did extremely well. However again now, the tide has turned, and even though I take a somewhat cautious approach, even when being dealt decent cards, the resulting flops beggar belief. Another note is that whenever someone appears to be on their last legs, they more often than not come up trumps even though they'll start with naff all. Okay I may be on a bad run you may say, but its just that the sequence of cards that appear - being dealt a run on the flop only to get done by a flush - not once but 4 times in approx 60 mins play seems awfully odd. So the question is, am I being paranoid, or do other folk reckon there may well be a stitch of some sort on these sites? It'd surely be very easy for them to ensure you win to start off with, to get you hooked, and then to drain you. Also is it restricted to certain sites - or some better than others, ie more honest? How do these sites ensure that the cards dealt are completely random?? Or maybe its just that Im playing at the completey wrong tables and am having a torrid bit of luck. Anyway rant over - just want to get it off my chest and see if any other folk think the same. Oh and I wont mention the site in question - yet. Would be interesting to see if others come up with the same site first.

[Valiant23]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? NIGWAFC. You never hear a winning poker player complaining that the site is fixed.;) Personally, I prefer to play STT's and MTT's to ring games, and on one site recently the lowest tables available were $5. I was playing these reluctantly, bacause I was concerned I'd be over my head but I was turning a profit from them. Anyway the site made $3 tables available, so I switched to them and haven't made it to the money once. Now I'm reluctant to use another players bad beat as an example, but I'm sure he knows it was bad play and posted it in frustration. http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?p=308455#post308455 Now to me, it seems obvious that someone must have AK, or that there is a chance of it. The good play would have been to get away from that hand and play the next one, especially as hayward said the other guy was hitting hands for fun. What I think happens is that we have a period of success through good play, then we begin to relax and start to believe we are good players and subconsciously play hands that we wouldn't touch before, in the belief that we are good enough not to need cards. So there are 2 things you can do, believe what you said in the post above (not that you do I'm sure), or readjust your play and tighten up. Someone has already said in the bad beat thread, if you don't have the absolute nuts there is a chance you can lose. Obvious, but we forget. Chin up mate.:ok

[GaF]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed???

Okay' date=' having played on the tables for a number of months now, Im now becoming extremely suspicious of the hands that are being dealt.[/quote'] You know what mate, I'm glad you brought this up, cos I've been thinking something very similar with the Premiership - I mean Wigan, 2nd in the premiership - the chances of that are just so remote - look at their team and compare it to the squads of Arsenal, Man Utd, Spurs, Liverpool, Newcastle etc - the chances of them being 2nd at this stage of the season are just nil, it must be a fix, right? ;) OK, so I don't really believe the Premiership is fixed, but I don't believe online Poker rooms are either (at least the big ones) - look at what they would lose if found out, compared to what they gain ...... it's just not in their interests. I think that Bad Beats - whilst frustrating - are totally normal - think about it - for most bad beats you are something like an 80%/20% favourite - that means that 4 out of 5 times you will win -BUT IT ALSO MEANS that 1 time out of 5 you will lose - it is in our nature (all of us) that we forget those 4 out of 5 occassions when the "normal" thing happens, but the 1 out of 5 occasions when the unexpected happens, we remember it for a long time. I reckon that if you looked through your history for this session, the "bad beats" will be roughly in line with expectations (and if you're happy to share your hand history, I'm happy to look through it!!!) As to which site - whichever site you are on - you will find people complaining that it is fixed - users of every site believe their site is fixed!! (so why play there and not somewhere you believe isn't fixed???) I really do genuinely believe that online poker (on the big networks) is straight.

[guesswest]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? I don't reckon it's fixed either. You're seeing many more hands in the same amount of time vs live play, so you're going to see more bad beats. And not just that, the standard online is generally lower than B&M so you have a lot more people chasing their ugly suckouts. Just asides from any of this though - it's public information. You can test these sites. People have, Wizard of Odds is one guy that does this kind of thing. The maths is a bit beyond my small brain, but you can obtain solid proof as to whether sites are fixed or not from a big enough sample, it's all public domain info and someone would surely have discovered rigged poker by now. Online fixing just doesn't make sense to me, either in terms of the sites being able to get away with it, or in terms of there being any benefit to rigging even if they could. :)

[philossify]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? I don't reckon its fixed either - mind you I do sometimes wonder whether in all in situations where no more betting can happen whether they deal the remaining cards under the covers and enhance the result for the benefit of the crowd. How many times have I folded a 72o only against two guys going all in onlly to see 772 on the flop! Fairly sure its just paranoia though - you can bet your last dollar that theres assorted graduate students doing a maths thesis where they study the randomness of the deals on poker sites..... if there was anything untoward I suspect you'd be reading it in the papers. The poker sites have too valuable a property to screw it up by getting caught cheating.

[Valiant23]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? And, to direct the question to someone who (hopefully) will be able give us the inside 'nod'. What do you reckon cains? Is that how you'll be wanting your site? I'm pretty sure I know the answer.;)

[slapdash]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? I was talking to somebody a couple of days ago who has done some consultancy work regarding the random number generators used by internet poker sites, and he was telling me some horror stories about the early days (things are much better now, apparently. The random numbers were generated by measuring the time since the last deal in microseconds, and using that number as the random seed. This is a common way of generating (pseudo-)random numbers on a computer when you just want, say, a random number between 1 and 100. The problem is that there are not that many likely seeds ... just a few tens of millions. But the number of possibilities for your two pocket cards and the three flop cards, in order, is around 300 million. So it was possible in principle, if you knew the algorithm used, to deduce exactly what all the cards were as soon as you saw the flop ... and people did.

[guesswest]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? This famously happened in I think 1998, but I can't remember which site it was. Fortunately it was perpetrated by a group of University students or some similar type group, who were doing it for research purposes, and very nobly passed the info directly onto the site, rather than using it to steal a load of money. It's very different now. An RNG uses a variable or multiple variables to 'seed' it's algorithm, that's how they get around the problem of a truly random number being impossible in computing. So back then they were using system time, to I'm sure 1000ths of a second, and probably other static variables, to seed the RNG. The reason it's so different now, is they use dynamic variables, things that couldn't possibly be simulated, ruling out the possibility of someone recreating the algorithm and predicting the deal. Nowadays they use things like ambient temperature in the room where the server is stored, user mouse movement etc - so unless someone can predict those kind of factors, which obviously they can't, the RNG's are safe from outside simulation. It does however mean, if a sites seeding it's RNG based on mouse movement, if your cards suck, you can try wiggling it about :D:D:D Edit: Littered with typos

[mrmuzeman]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? Alright NIGWAFC nice to see you playing a bit of poker mate :ok By the way that Wigan joke was a goodun GAF :lol There is no way the sittes are fixed mate. Think of it this way. The company takes its 5% rake NO MATTER WHO WINS. And that is the crucial point to me. Consider this..... What do WilliamHill care if Joe Bloggs makes his flush or Mr Smith wins the pot? Either way theyll take their small cut just the same. Random stuff happens. Thats poker as they say and the sooner people deal with this the sooner you can concentrate on just having fun playing! :ok

[NIGWAFC]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? Cheers for the confidence vote all - s'pose I should have stuck my moan on the bad beat post to be honest. Interesting to read your comments slapdash on how the numbers are generated - if thats how theyre doing it then granted, itd be hard pressed to duplicate. I was more or less comparing the cards dealt compared with those when dealt from a real pack, ie when your sat round a table with a few pals swigging a few beers - they never seem to produce the same consistent runs and flushes. Having said all that Ive never gone in to in depth, or done a major analysis on it all, so as suggested it may just be that I never notice it when it works in my favour. Oh and great reply GotaFancy - made me chuckle that. Ah well, s'pose may give it another shot and test the theory. See you on the Prem thread Muze! :ok

[spreadman]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? Interesting reading about something in which I have never participated in, mainly because I have a problem remembering my name is Spodman, let alone recalling if three of a kind is better than a flush... or a full house.....:\ However, NIGWAFC, your paranoia may not be unfounded, but for a different reason. The RNG problem may have been sorted, but I am sure that I read of a theory, probably in another forum elsewhere, that it would be possible to 'rig' a table. If you have 6 or less players on line, and 4 or 5 'mates' were able to ensure that they played the same table, each with their own computers, thus with different 'thingys' ( ISDN or something, addresses) that wouldn't link them with each other, surely, using mobile phones, or a 5 way (?) conference line (?), they could keep in contact with each other and reveal their card to each other, ......would this not be possible, and indeed advantageous? Good discussion, so far.....hope that I haven't killed the thread....:) I know that these poker, blackjack internet sites have software running constantly to check for 'suspicious patterns of play', but by using several different user names, and this method, am I talking sense, or, out of my rectal organ?

[danno375]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? I know that you all say that internet sites are not fixed. I would like to agree but I can't. I know every player has a bad beat story or bad runs but I would suggest that there is a reason why sites might fix games. Poker is gambling. No ifs, no buts. Gambling IS addictive but it is a dangerous addiction with poker because we believe there is a large element of skill involved, not just luck. Therefore...... my aa and kk and qq and ak suited get beaten in 4 games on the bounce. I know I can play poker. I know I have won tourneys and stt's etc so I know it is either bad luck or very good luck on the part of a less " skilled " player. As all gamblers do......I chase my losses. The sites are fully aware of betting and payment patterns and the likelyhood that if a player is frustrated that he lost a hand he had every right to romp home in, that he will chase this loss knowing that 80% of the time he will win. So if you play 5 games and lose aa in the first with a ridiculous bad beat...you know that the probability is that you will win the next one.....even the next 3 before the percrentage probability comes round to bite your ass again. You lose this chasing game on kk to a ridiculous bad beat again. The probability of that happening is more outragous than the first game. So I play again. But this time I am two entry fees down and the probability of losing again is even lower. You play, but at triple the enrty fee ro recover the losses and make a bit extra, and lose on aa to a 7-2 bad beat. You see where I am going. My point is that it IS in the interests of poker sites to fix games. The people being bad beat WILL add more money because a) they want to play and b) they KNOW that they are due a win and the bad run has to end. We are gamblers ( using skill as an excuse to pretend that we are better than roulette players) I agree that we have more CHANCE than roulette players, but no matter what cards you hold you CAN be beaten. The poker sites can use this knowledge and our own difficulty to refuse/refrain from playing to carve more money from us. I have had many whinges about sporting odds....one today where someone called an all in with q5 against my kk. he flopped 2 pair. i rivered the trips kings......it also gave him his flush. Once in a while that would be amazing but acceptable ( remember that this fool went all in with q5 suited or not) but when this happens in 4 out of 5 games it becomes less probable that prbability is defeating me!!!!! Make it 9 out of 10 games and you lose the will to live! So to everyone that states that internet poker is not fixed.........that is fine. to everyone who suspects that it is fixed....that too is fine. thank you to everyone who provides "evidence that poker is not fixed" with numbers and percentages, but only a few people WILL KNOW the truth. Let us have our rant after losing to 7 2 AGAIN after an all in and accept that you don't know that it is not fixed.... just suspect that. I just wanted to tell those that think it is fixed that you are not alone, and it is not just the very bad players that agree with you. I also wanted to explain that it MAY be in the interests of poker sites to fix games, and claiming that their customers will desert them if they cheat does not prove their independance. Danno375 sits abck and waits for the "logic" onslaught!

[GaF]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? Danno (and Nigel) or anyone else who believes sites are fixed - send me your hand history for the session in question and I will attempt to prove that overall, you had roughly average luck!! (unfortunately doesn't work with SO as they don't create a hand history - most other sites do.....)

[guesswest]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? Apologies for rambling on incessantly on this thread, but is interesting, and a couple thoughts on both the above posts. Firstly, Danno: If these sites were fixed everyone would know about it. There are numerous people, both individuals and organizations, doing independent testing on poker sites. It'd be absolutely insane for a poker site, which essentially has a licence to print money bearing in mind that they're guaranteed rake, whatever the outcome, to jeapordise that by cheating the deal. It just makes zero sense. This is all public information, and the maths associated with establishing a fair deal isn't THAT complicated. Even if all that wasn't true, I reject the premise that theres an inclination to chase losses any more than there's an inclination to try and win more. Casinos like to give people the impression that players are winning precisely because they play more, that's why they like lucky first timers in negative expectation games. People's psychological motivations are all irrelevant anyway, these deals are a matter of public record and there's numerous people testing them, even if there was some overwhelming motivations for poker sites to rig deals, they'd be exposed and lose their (hugely profitable without rigging) business very quickly. Spread: Collusion definitely happens, fortunately though, I reckon most people don't have the maths skills to do it very well. And sites do monitor people who sit together frequently, betting patterns etc. It does happen a bit though, whats much more worrying is software with a teamplay option which does this for colluding players, like Winholdem, it also does the odds calculations. I still think this is a relatively infrequent occurence though. And also, people collude in live games too, it's probably easier to do it there in fact. Edit: Made no sense :D

[spreadman]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? Interesting, guesswest, did you mean the first part of your posted reply to apply to me?...only I don't think I said that the sites were fixed, just the possibiltity of players colluding. Maybe the first comment in your post was mean't for someone else...;)

[spreadman]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? Ahh, I see your edit :)

[guesswest]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed???

Ahh' date=' I see your edit :)[/quote']Yep sorry, my fingers move quicker than my brain. So do glaciers :D

[spreadman]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? :rollin

[danno375]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? cheers for the reply guess. but one of the points i made was that should a site be rigging games then people might know but enjoy the play and be assured that their skills can beat even a fixed game. as for the authorities and consumer bodies checking the honesty of games.... i would be interested to know more about them. but as with all gambling the gentlemans agreement about honesty still stands and makes any attempts to make a site accountable difficult i don't know if you play on sporting odds tourneys .... the 20 and 30 dollar ones are prime examples.......but almost every hand someone makes a comment about that site being worse for bad beats than any other that the players regularly play at. i play there ( stupid i know) because i like the look and play of the site. i don't lose loads of cash but that is due to folding into the money than great hands that i win!

[chala]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? First let me say I don't think the big internet sites are fixed and completely agree with what Mr Muze says, the sites get their 5% whatever, so why do they care who wins? But to provoke a bit of discussion, 2 things I would say: (1) They don't want your average player to lose all the time. If only the good players won, the average/bad players would stop coming back. (2) This applies to cash games - True the site get their 5% whoever wins, but the better the hands they give, the more people that play, the larger the pot and the larger their cut. Like I said, just a couple of points to provoke a bit of discussion.

[guesswest]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed???

First let me say I don't think the big internet sites are fixed and completely agree with what Mr Muze says, the sites get their 5% whatever, so why do they care who wins? But to provoke a bit of discussion, 2 things I would say: (1) They don't want your average player to lose all the time. If only the good players won, the average/bad players would stop coming back. (2) This applies to cash games - True the site get their 5% whoever wins, but the better the hands they give, the more people that play, the larger the pot and the larger their cut. Like I said, just a couple of points to provoke a bit of discussion.

Am pretty sure the natural odds of poker take care of this. Everyone in this forum could clean out Phil Ivey if they only played him for 20 minutes - good play can take a long time to materialise as profit. It's meant to be the case that even a good winning player needs a very conservative minimum of 10x the max buy in to bankroll a cash game, and actually, even more than that if it's a crazy loose game with probably even worse players. Bad players win all the time without the sites having to do anything. Thats my thinking anyway :)

[DAC]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? Now, I'm a tad stoned, so bear with me. :dude The way I look it at is thus. Say there are one million games of hold 'em going on at this very minute, got that?. Say you lose 10 times on the bounce with cards with an 80%-20% hand, that may seem to be an incredibly run of bad luck, however, somewhere out there someone has won 10 hands on the trot playing a 20%-80%...also there are people out there who have won 8 out of 10 playing 80%-20%....basically what I am saying is that if you are playing a probability of 80%-20% these odds will work out in your favour.....eventually but only if you play and play and play. If you get a bad beat look on it as a statistical anomoly in the great wide world of internet poker with millions of hands going on at any one time, the statisical probabilty will happen, you may not just be playing when it does.

[DAC]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? That may sound like rubbish to a lot of people but it helps me, it helps me quite a lot.

[danno375]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? just for the record.......... played sporting odds for 4th time today.....folded into 2nd place.... then first good hand...jj...all in...call with 10 10. 10 on turn........ the run of bad beats continues.......... two 10's in a pack...he gets on heads up................. give me a knife.......i want a knife..............lol every game it is the same!

[danno375]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? nice last post............ get your point but when is it my turn??? lol

[danno375]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? nice last post.,....... but when is it my turn??? lol:beer

[GaF]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed???

just for the record.......... played sporting odds for 4th time today.....folded into 2nd place.... then first good hand...jj...all in...call with 10 10. 10 on turn........ the run of bad beats continues.......... two 10's in a pack...he gets on heads up................. give me a knife.......i want a knife..............lol every game it is the same!

Ok - just 2 10's in the pack - but 5 cards to come - the chance of a 10 hitting isn't that remote ..... in fact, if my maths is correct, the chance of at least one of the two 10's coming out is 27.3% - thats MORE often than 1 time in 4 - and if you had another caller in the hand, then you would probably have been an underdog to win it, no matter what his hand........

[GaF]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? Sorry make that 20%, not 27.3% - still one time in 5!!!!!!!!

[GaF]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed???

Sorry make that 20%' date=' not 27.3% - still one time in 5!!!!!!!![/quote'] The point being, you're not exactly talking a "one in a million" chance.........

[danno375]

Re: Internet Sites Fixed??? it is with 2 cards only to come as often happens..... but the point everyone is ignoring the yes it could happen....yes it will happen......but NOT EVERY game!! and i do mean every game very occassionally in my favour but EVERY game....so many comments on chat about the regularity..... S can we cease the percentage poo pooing of peoples whinges please........it might be that it is likely once every 5 but on sporting odds, in my games the top hands lose more than they win......and even your stats must say that is unlikely....but it has been happeniing for months. sorry to be uppity but percentages prove only that it can happen....not why it does so regularly...and to keep saying the percentages say it might happen is like telling me it isn't happening......... dan