staffy Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 PokerStars Game #59905082719: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05 USD) - 2011/03/27 21:08:17 WET [2011/03/27 16:08:17 ET] Table 'Catriona VII' 9-max Seat #8 is the button Seat 1: weexee22 ($5.25 in chips) Seat 2: Artorius2002 ($1.88 in chips) Seat 3: sego999 ($6.26 in chips) Seat 4: dapixusjr ($3.80 in chips) Seat 5: jukumanni ($12.89 in chips) Seat 6: staffyPL ($5.19 in chips) Seat 7: G@NjUBaS ($1.98 in chips) Seat 8: marcwoln ($4.50 in chips) Seat 9: hard_freeze_ ($5.27 in chips) hard_freeze_: posts small blind $0.02 weexee22: posts big blind $0.05 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to staffyPL [Qs Qc] Artorius2002: folds sego999: folds sego999 leaves the table dapixusjr: folds jukumanni: raises $0.15 to $0.20 staffyPL: raises $0.30 to $0.50 G@NjUBaS: folds marcwoln: folds marcwoln leaves the table hard_freeze_: folds weexee22: folds jukumanni: raises $0.50 to $1 What do I do at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danshot Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Re: Thoughts please Personally I always feel a little bit sick in my stomach when it this spot its so gross he usually has AK or JJ+ possibly AQ or Tens but not sure a player sat that deep is calling off with AQ or Tens maybe I'm wrong. I personally would normally shove it over the top I prefer to 3 bet bigger if looking for a fold I choose the bet sizing you did if i'm looking to play a big pot and induce him to shove. A flat isn't too horrible as long as prepared to get it in on anything bar a Ace or King high flop. What was the outcome? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 27, 2011 Author Share Posted March 27, 2011 Re: Thoughts please Ill tell you soon ill wait for other replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heniek31 Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Re: Thoughts please I'm all in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 27, 2011 Author Share Posted March 27, 2011 Re: Thoughts please I'm all in. I am intersted to know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Re: Thoughts please I call, see a flop and then re-evaluate. I've just PTR'd him and the player has a rating of 48 - so not your typical microstakes donk! So I expect him to have Aces here most of the time, however the combination of the 3-1 express odds and the implied odds available let me set mine (if he has Aces, you should be able to get all the money in on the flop if you hit your Queen). The player has 131k hands for a profit of 0.86 BB/100 - looks like a strong bot candidate to me. How as villain been playing so far? What are his stats at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please Bleh, a kind of weird situation on the face of it but it's MP vs MP - he's opened 4x (his range is strong and he knows this) - you've 3bet his big open in MP (your range is uber strong and he knows this) - he knows these 2 things not by advanced hand reading or whatever it's just he opens big and he's been 3bet - he knows 100% you have a big hand - yet he puts in a tiny 4bet - this is 99.% AA/KK. IMO the reason is as you always have a big-ish hand here lets say for arguments sake AQs is the bottom of your range - so he basically never expects you to fold after 3betting and wants more action - if you have AQs or TT he wants to induce you to shove light or see a flop light and he coolers JJ/QQ/KK. So he's never trying to get you to fold to this 4bet in a fullring game MP v MP so it's a value 4bet which i'd fold to. Calling would be for 10% of your stack specifically to hit a Q which is terrible as basically if we get it in on any flop below a J for example we only beat JJ which we were beating pre-flop anyway so should shove pre flop if you think that's in their range. Typically i wouldn't expect such a small 4bet with JJ as i imagine a lot of players at those stakes will hate JJ like the devil so will not want to level themselves into calling a shove, instead they'll 4bet bigger to justify getting it in or call the 3bet. Maybe that's with my 6max hat on where calling a 4bet with QQ is a disaster as nobody plays poor enough post flop to justify that. At full-ring where we know their range is near always KK/AA maybe we can set mine but you'd have to fold on 100% of boards that he cbets where you don't hit a Q so if you can do that then maybe you can justify a call but a doubt many people can fold QQ on an 872 flop to a cbet at those stakes so it's a general point that i just think calling with QQ sets a bad precedent, it's a bad habit to get into as you have to be really really disciplined and experienced in those areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please If we put him almost exclusively on Aces, and if we called solely for set value, then now is the time for the really disciplined fold that Nade talked of. We think you're behind, and you missed the flop. The price you're being charged is cheap, but you only have 2 cards that improve your hand, and so if you're behind, as we think you are, then you have few chances to get ahead. You havent given any indications on the villains tendancies - could he be doing this in your opinion with anything other than Aces? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please The result of what happened in the hand is exactly why you need to fold to the 4bet. I fundamentally disagree with calling 4bets but we can perhaps make exceptions against extremely nitty players if they make the 4bet so small and we fold 100% of the times we don't flop a set. As that is the only way to exploit them in that situation. Any other variation of playing the hand when 4bet is you being exploited unless you shove/fold preflop. Gaf argued the case for calling the 4bet in this hand and i agreed after some thought it can be possible in really really rare circumstances, but crucially it's important to take the thought a bit further. Unless you're capable of folding 100% of the time if you don't hit a set then calling the 4bet is bad for the reasons i put in my first post. This connects to a much wider thought process that i'm having trouble articulating but basically if you're not calling the 4bet for the right reasons preflop then you'll always be losing money in those spots post-flop which is why i suggested folding in my first post. I know it's really tough to fold QQ in your shoes there, personally i never fold QQ pre-flop at 6max so it's not like i'm advocating folding big hands to pressure, the point is to put someone on a range and think what the best action to make is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please I agree that I needed to fold it pre flop. I put him on AA so its should be an easy fold. Dont get me wrong if villain had done this to others and to me on a couple of occasions I am pushing all in or certainly a big raise. Just making sure my thought process was correct. One big learning curve at the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please So my thought process would be: They've made it 4x pre-flop in MP, their range is likely strong, I should 3bet QQ, Wait, i need to be sure if they 4bet they have AK and JJ in their range for my 3bet to be good, Consider our perceived range for 3betting here, (make action depending on player type - 3bet or just call) Post flop - assuming we call their 4x open: They have a strong range still up to AA that we haven't defined, If they cbet an Axx flop we fold, if they cbet a Kxx flop we call 1 street hoping to get to showdown as they'll shut down with JJ,TT etc. If they cbet a low flop we just call as our perceived range is full of pocket pairs pre-flop so raising a low flop will over-rep our hand Essentially with 1 pair we're looking to get to showdown in full-ring with QQ as cheap as possible here, otherwise we'd 3bet pre-flop with the intention of 5bet shoving as they either have a wider 4bet range than AA/KK because they do or we 3bet loose. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please I had no read on Villain tbh. Do you use a HUD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please Do you use a HUD? Nope Should I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please Nope Should I? I think you should (but know some will argue you shouldn't). If you're not picking up reads on your opponents yourself, then I think you should have at least some basic information on screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please ok I know it has been asked a million times. Which HUD should I use. I dont want to spend much money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please So far as I know, Poker Tracker 3(PT3) and Holdem Manager(HEM) are your only serious options. I prefer HEM, but dont think the difference is huge. Both offer a free trial - that may be the best starting point. Instead of paying for it yourself, why not earn it? Either through your current play, or freerolls - it may give some focus to your current play - say you need to earn it before the trial expires. At about $60-$70 (IIRC), I think they're pretty cheap for what they are and what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please i have PT3 on the laptop. Can I convert it to the desktop as thats where I play most these days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please With a PT3 licence, you can put PT3 on 2 machines, and you can change the machines you have licenced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaulc Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please if you want something simple i would suggest holdem indicator,really really user friendly but again about $70-$80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please With a PT3 licence' date=' you can put PT3 on 2 machines, and you can change the machines you have licenced.[/quote'] Ok ill see if I can find my licence :\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Pudding Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please Holdem Manager is the much better product on the whole (IMO), though like someone says you have PT3 which usually gives you two licences to play with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaulc Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please Ok ill see if I can find my licence :\ if you cant find it get in touch with them,they are really helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please Ok i think I was running a free trial on the laptop I htink I had PT2 in the past. I have downloaded onto desltop and its letting me have a free 60 trial. Now how do I work the HUD and what info do i need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please I cant remember how to use PT3 - its been so long - sorry. Most basic information you want to start with is VPIP and PFR. You probably want players alias (so you know it's in the right place and refering to the right player) and number of hands you've seen too. IIRC then the default HUD on PT3 isnt bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Re: Thoughts please I cant remember how to use PT3 - its been so long - sorry. Most basic information you want to start with is VPIP and PFR. You probably want players alias (so you know it's in the right place and refering to the right player) and number of hands you've seen too. IIRC then the default HUD on PT3 isnt bad. OK ill give it a go. Got nothing to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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