Shoving with any Ace - FAO Slapdash

[GaF]

Re: Shoving with any Ace - FAO Slapdash Have put in a scenario in holdemresources.net - http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=200&sb=100&ante=0&structure=0.5%2C0.3%2C0.2&s1=3000&s2=3000&s3=3000&s4=1000&s5=3000&s6=3000&s7=&s8=&s9= Standard STT payout - 6 players left - blinds 100/200, short stack has 1000, everyone else has 3000. Short stack is on the Button and everyone folds to him. The "Nash" shoving range is 38.2%, 22+ Ax+ K3s+ K9o+ Q6s+ QTo+ J7s+ J9o+ T7s+ T9o 96s+ 86s+ 75s+ 65s 54s - this includes A5o, but excludes 87s - so the suggestion is immediately that A5o is a better holding to shove than 87s (taking into account the ranges you could be called with), but we'll ignore that for the moment... The suggested calling range for the SB is - 22.0%, 33+ A2s+ A5o+ K9s+ KTo+ QTs+ JTs. Assuming the SB folds, then the suggested calling range for the BB is 38.8%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K6o+ Q5s+ Q9o+ J7s+ J9o+ T8s+ 98s Are these ranges reasonable? Given the button is short stacked and given that he is in late position, those (pretty loose) calling ranges dont look that unreasonable to me. Against the SB range, then A5o wins 39.922% with 87s winning 38.466%Against the BB range, then A5o wins 47.986% of the time, whilst 87s wins 39.582% Appreciate that STT isnt what the discussion was about, however the logic should hold up whether MTT or STT?

[AlunB]

Re: Shoving with any Ace - FAO Slapdash Here is Aaron's response in full... Hi Jeremy, While it is true that Ace rag has an advantage over suited connectors when our opponent is holding a hand like K-J or an over pair to our suited connectors, suited connectors hold an advantage over two hands that have a tendency for calling small-medium sized all ins more often than a hand like K-J, the big ace and the pocket pair smaller than our suited connectors. Ideally, when we are pushing with suited connectors, we don't want a call but if we get a call it is important that our hand not be dominated and that we have live cards so to speak. So think of it is this way. What hands are most likely to call a 10 times the big blind first to act all in move. Hands like K-J or Q-J have a hard time doing so because they know that if they are up against an ace that they have to improve and unless they have a lot of chips, 10 times the big blind is a significant portion of their stack. Hands that are most likely to call are big aces and pocket pairs. Against big aces, suited connectors have a distinct advantage over Ace rag. For example, A-J will win 71.2% of the time against A-4 but will only win 58.3% of the time against 8-7 suited. Against pocket pairs smaller than the suited connectors, the Ace rag is again at a disadvantage. A-4 against pocket 6's will only win 31.1% of the time while 8-7s will win 49.3%. The only time Ace rag is at an advantage is when the opponent holds a pocket pair bigger than the suited connectors and even then the advantage is small. A-4 against pocket kings will win 29.8% of the time while 8-7 suited will win 22.6% of the time. This also isn't to say that I won't push with Ace rag, I am just saying that if I am in this type of situation that I prefer to push with suited connectors if given the choice. It's close, that's for sure, and it's probably more a matter of personal preference based on my experiences playing poker (losing multiple times with ace rag and having better success with suited connectors) than anything. Aaron

[GaF]

Re: Shoving with any Ace - FAO Slapdash I've rejigged the example in post 31, by halving the blinds - which gives us 10xBB that Aaron is talking about instead of the 5xBB we were looking at. (Just noticed that in the original post, 65s was in the range, so 87s must be in the range as well, not outside it as I suggested :$) http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=100&sb=50&ante=0&structure=0.5%2C0.3%2C0.2&s1=3000&s2=3000&s3=3000&s4=1000&s5=3000&s6=3000&s7=&s8=&s9 This should tighten up the shove and calling range. The suggested shove range is now: 33.0%, 22+ Ax+ K5s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J7s+ JTo T7s+ 97s+ 86s+ 76s SO this includes both A5o and 87s. The call range for the SB is now down to: 12.2%, 44+ A7s+ A9o+ KJs+ The call range for the BB is down to: 18.4%, 33+ A2s+ A7o+ KTs+ KJo+ QJs Against the SB range: A5o will win 31.6% 87s will win 36% Against the BB range: A5o will win 37.6% 87s will win 37.5% So nothing in it against the BB looser range, but definite advantage to the suited connector for the SB range. There seems to be some significance to how short stacked you are (or more specifically, to how loose your opponents should be calling. If your opponents should be calling loosely (including more big cards without an Ace in their range), then the rag ace seems to fare better. If your opponent should be calling tighter, then it will include more big aces (i.e. domination) and the suited connector will fare better. Anyone (er...slapdash? :tongue2) want to offer any evidence aginst the hypothesis that a large short stack is better shoving with suited connectors than rag aces, but a short short stack is better shoving with rag aces...

[slapdash]

Re: Shoving with any Ace - FAO Slapdash

Anyone (er...slapdash? :tongue2) want to offer any evidence aginst the hypothesis that a large short stack is better shoving with suited connectors than rag aces, but a short short stack is better shoving with rag aces...

I agree that tightening the calling range benefits suited connectors more than it benefits rag aces, and a taller short stack will presumably mean your opponents' calling ranges will be tighter. However, with the ranges you give, the rough calculations I've just done seem to suggest that A5o still does a little bit better in chip equity than 87s when you take into account the fact that you'll be called less often with A5o than with 87s because it blocks more of your opponents' calling ranges. If you had 87s, SB would call about 1.1 times as often as he would if you had A5o, and BB would call about 1.088 times as often, and that (I think) is enough to more than offset the advantage 87s has when called by the SB.