Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

[BAM]

Level 6 blinds are 150/300 with a 25 running Ante, rising every hour. You have been on the same table for 6 hours people have come and gone and the play has been generally LAG. There are 3 recognised pro's at your table but you have been holding your own and you have around 13K from your original 10K and the average is about 14K. Your own image is probably LAG as you have been raising with a lot of hands mainly concentrating on two unknown players on the table who have been playing relatively tight. You are UTG+1 with KK and you raise it 900 to go. Folds round to the cut off (one of the tight players) who min reraises - button, SB, BB fold You to go - you raise to 3600 he calls. Flop comes Q 9 6 two spades you stick in 4000 he calls. Turn comes a red 10 you think for a while and check he quickly checks River comes 4 of spades you check he puts you all in. Do you call or fold? What hand do you put him on? Why did you check the turn?

[gavham]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

Level 6 blinds are 150/300 with a 25 running Ante, rising every hour. You have been on the same table for 6 hours people have come and gone and the play has been generally LAG. There are 3 recognised pro's at your table but you have been holding your own and you have around 13K from your original 10K and the average is about 14K. Your own image is probably LAG as you have been raising with a lot of hands mainly concentrating on two unknown players on the table who have been playing relatively tight. You are UTG+1 with KK and you raise it 900 to go. Folds round to the cut off (one of the tight players) who min reraises - button, SB, BB fold You to go - you raise to 3600 he calls. Flop comes Q 9 6 two spades you stick in 4000 he calls. Turn comes a red 10 you think for a while and check he quickly checks River comes 4 of spades you check he puts you all in. Do you call or fold? What hand do you put him on? Why did you check the turn?

I fold here he has qqq or more likley a flush AKs,AQs. Hard to see this is a bluff. I would have never checked the turn as not only do you have an overpair you have outs also. The only reason to check would be to check raise. You probably have the odds to call but i think its a loser so no point

[Valiant23]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle I remember this hand from Sunday's drive home. I want to answer this;

Why did you check the turn?

later. :ok

[BAM]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

I fold here he has qqq or more likley a flush AKs,AQs. Hard to see this is a bluff. I would have never checked the turn as not only do you have an overpair you have outs also. The only reason to check would be to check raise. You probably have the odds to call but i think its a loser so no point

Can I just say that even though mole was there he obviously wasn't listening to me as he was too busy getting his 5 a day in. So he hasn't revealed anything so I would genuinely like feedback, I know it is a tricky one but it has been bugging me for a couple of weeks now so any comments are welcome. ps this is not a bad beat thread :spank

[McG]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle OK, time for the novice fish to have a go. I don't put him on trips of any sort (Q, 9, 6) - he would not have given you free cards on the flop or turn, and would have been keen to seal the hand there and then. Much more likely is the Ace High flush, possibly AK or AQ, although you did not say if you had Ks or if the flop had Qs. If he had AQo and pushed because he put you on JJ and thought he was ahead, I apologise. Why did you check on the turn? Your gut instincts told you something wasn't right, and you secretly hoped for a non-spade Jack on the river. Should you call or fold? It's possible that he's on a bluff, but there are a number of hands that beat you and match that betting pattern, so I would reluctantly fold and try to battle back with the 5k I had left in front of me.

[goater14]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle Another novice fishes take on it, if he was holding AK, AQ i can,t see what he gains from the min reraise. The only hand I could put him on is a big pocket pair. But then again if he had aces he would of shoved all-in after you re-raised him? He must have pocket queens then:unsure..... No sorry I haven't got a clue what he,s holding. answers to the questions call or fold : fold what do you put him on:QQ

[stooo V2]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle My first instincts when i read this was that he had flopped trips. But then his bet on the river makes no sense... if you have the flush you'll call in which case he's out... if you don't you'll fold... in which case he'd be risking his tournament for no reason when he could check it down and get the same return without the risk (if that makes any sense). I think you ended up laying it down.....

[daftpegasus]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle I'd be interested to know if this tight player was one of the pro's on the table, but here's my view on the hand: You can't put him on AA as he would have re-raised again pre flop. Therefore hands between 10,10 - KK or AK are most likely. The play post flop is the most interesting and hardest to read. Either he's still confident of having the best hand and is calling to suck you into the trap, or, he has taken your LAG image and decided that you could have made the half pot bet with any 2 cards. However he ust put you on some sort of hand pre flop based on the betting patterns. Again here a knowledge of what hands you've shown previously would potentially help make a decision. The 10 on the turn leaves you with a tough decision. He could have hit trips with 2 potential starting hands (QQ & 10,10) and there is a remote straight possibility. I suspect that you check in order to get some cheap information on his hand - however you don't get much information from his check. The flush possibilites on the river slow you completely giving him the chance to bluff at the pot (if he needs to). Two consecutive checks from you is a sign of weakness or the nuts. We don't know how many chips he'd be left with if you called and won, but he may feel that it's sufficient to take the risk that you haven't got the nuts and thus he puts you all in knowing you probably can't call without it. To answer the questions: I think he has QQ or 10,10 and you should fold. You check on the turn because you don't know where you are in the hand and hope to get some cheap information or a free card.

[BAM]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle Fair point DP he started the hand with about 20k he had won a set over set hand with Maria Demitriou (all in) about an hour previous but not really played anything else and no he is not a recognised pro.

[glceud]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle Do you call or fold? Call What hand do you put him on? A/q no flush at best. Possibly even less(pkt pair or AK) which he thinks might be still ahead but is 90% sure you will fold anyway as you have missed the board in his eyes. Why did you check the turn? Hoping to checkraise all in No way he has a set as he would never check the turn on that board.

[heniek31]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle -

No way he has a set as he would never check the turn on that board.

That's the 1st thing came to my mind. No way he has a set and after your check on the turn, he knows you don't have one either. It would be absolutely sick to check it on the turn having trips with those cards on the table. In my opinion he has AQ, JJ or KK. You bet 4k and he calls on the flop, then you check the turn. He probably puts you now on AK and it looks like continuation bet on the turn from your side. If I had any of 3 hands I mentioned, I would have gone all in too. If has flush, thats tough, but I'm calling here. ..and 6000 posts (of rubbish) :gimme.

[BAM]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle come on there must be more opinions than this- I need a broad spectrum Gaf? Slap? VoJ? Nade? Morls?

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle Bri I'm folding here.. I'm deffo putting him on AKs and has hit the flush with the river card.... the way the betting has gone suggests that he has the flush and I'm guessing you worked this out also and probably folded! I think the check on the turn is an instant reaction of when your not sure how good your hand is... you are probably expecting a bet from him... but with him checking suggests to me that he is happy to take the free card. Do you know what he had then?

[Nade]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle If you insist ;) My thought process would have been: Pre flop - min raise from late position player, they can be doing this with a large range of hands to try and take the pot away later on so i'd be looking to try and narrow down their range with a big re-raise. A raise to 3600 is just another min re-raise which of course will let them know you have the goods but they're now thinking implied odds come into play, with them getting 3:1 to see the flop. I think a raise to 5k will give a better picture of where you stand. Flop - He could conceivably have 99,66, Q9, J10, 78, and any 2 high spades. It's a very drawy board and so betting 4k into 7200 again imo doesn't find out where you are. Betting more makes you more pot committed but it's likely you're ahead here. What hand do you put him on? Thinking about it a bit more, i still don't know, the way it's played out means it's just guess work imo. Call or fold? Fold, me, sat behind a computer just looking at the hand as it is i don't know where you are, only thing can really beat is a bluff and so comes down to your read on that player in that situation. Check the turn? I think by making a bigger bet on the flop you are able to go all in on the turn. Instead a smaller bet makes a smaller pot so an all in looks too big and a bet is just building a pot where you still don't know where you are so checking is ok, but by checking you are pretty much giving up the pot to any big raise on the river, so i'd be surprised if you called unless you have a vgood read on the player, a call would be a bit fishy imo and more hope than judgement.

[glceud]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle Judging by the ammount of folders here the other guy has positive EV ( or whatever the new fangled term is) to push with any two cards. So I stick by calling which also has positive EV (taking into account the ammount of times he has nothing) Simple game poker thanks to the internet.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle hmm i think he may have 78s or kjs but possibly aks or aqs as nade said above its plausible that the min raising might have priced him in if its 78. surely to call a good bet like that on the flop you need something decent at least but if its pocket qs why no reraise? you are pretty likely to call all in on the flop after the 4k bet with only 5k left so he doesnt raise but he doesnt seem to want to lay it down either ,so i would guess at a monster draw like 78s. with the 10 appearing on the turn the board looks even more drawy so again i would expect a push from him at that point if he did have a set or 2 pair. however if he had hit the straight i think he would have checked it thru and hoped his spade wouldn't drop as well, coz that 10 doesn't look like the biggest danger card;) either way by the river i'm pretty sure he has you beat so i would be folding,its not the biggest bet in relation to the pot and i think he thinks you will call which is not a good sign. i think you checked the turn hoping he might try to push you out after missing his draw, or your might have thought he had aq and would bet the turn . i think he thought he was so far ahead he would be more likely to get the rest of you stack if the spade didn't drop ;).

[slapdash]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle There's about 9000 in the pot preflop, and I have about the same left? I think I'd have gone all in on the flop. Thus conveniently avoiding the need to answer the difficult question. :)

[Tom Hedonist]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

You are UTG+1 with KK and you raise it 900 to go. Folds round to the cut off (one of the tight players) who min reraises - button, SB, BB fold You to go - you raise to 3600 he calls. Flop comes Q 9 6 two spades you stick in 4000 he calls. Turn comes a red 10 you think for a while and check he quickly checks River comes 4 of spades you check he puts you all in.

I'm replying to this without reading any of the previous answers... honest injun.

Do you call or fold?

TBH I'm very tempted to fold. I realise this leaves you with only about 3500 chips (if my sums are correct - his min raise pre-flop, I think that would have been double your raise, rather than just another 300?) You're left with about ten big blinds, so might have to jam it in a few times after this to try and survive by picking up a few small bets and cross your fingers that you can double up a couple of times.

What hand do you put him on?

Because of his pre flop raise, either AK of spades or a set of Queens. It seems unlikely he'd reraise with AQ, even if they were suited, not impossible, but less likely. It also seems unlikely he'd have raised with pocket 66 or 99. Its possible he has a set of tens, as a lot of the time I'll reraise in late position with pTT. From the way he played the hand it seems more likely to be the AKs. I'd have expected him to reraise after the flop with the set Q's, to try and put you off a flush draw.

Why did you check the turn?

Because you're tight weak? :loon (Sorry!) I'm guessing you were trying to find out where you are and it gives you a chance to bluff the river should the flush turn up???

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle I've thought and pondered about this but still not sure whether I'd have pushed or not (which is why I hadn't answerde before) . But looking at it again here's my thoughts - minraise indicates strength especially from a tight player such as him. So preflop I'm thinking his raise means AA-TT, AK maybe AQ. (If he'd put in a slightly bigger re-raise I would have expanded his range). The flop has probably missed all but 2 of his range - so I reckon your a 5-2 shot to still be ahead. Your 4K into a 7k pot looks weak - deliberatly or unintentionally I'm not sure :). Maybe he's called thinking your weak ? Hoping to take it away from you on the turn. You again feign weakness with the Check - the river is a good bluffing card for him, no ace an undercard (low) to the board, and completes a flush. His river bet doesn't look to me as though he wants the call - if he's hit and thinks your weak why overbet ? Call him ...... theres always the bar to look forward to if your wrong ;) Hopefully he turns AQ :hope

[BAM]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle I think this hand is up for pro analysis in next months IP :unsure (alun?) So do not want to reveal what happened just yet. I would appreciate some more comment though :ok

[glceud]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

I think this hand is up for pro analysis in next months IP :unsure (alun?) So do not want to reveal what happened just yet. I would appreciate some more comment though :ok

Next months IP, is that the one we got last month or the month before?

[BAM]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

Next months IP' date=' is that the one we got last month or the month before?[/quote'] yep them three :ok

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

I think this hand is up for pro analysis in next months IP :unsure (alun?) So do not want to reveal what happened just yet. I would appreciate some more comment though :ok

:@ been looking forward to seeing what happened and now you make us wait longer!!!!! d1ck! ;)

[morlspin]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

come on there must be more opinions than this- I need a broad spectrum Gaf? Slap? VoJ? Nade? Morls?

i think i know what happens but....... Id have called id have also bet the turn to avoid the spade draw but like i say, im sure you told me anyway what happened:ok

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

Why did you check the turn?

i have no idea..

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle immediate reaction is QQ with the line he took, but since this aint a bad beat thread i really dont know.

[robsterling]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

Level 6 blinds are 150/300 with a 25 running Ante, rising every hour. You have been on the same table for 6 hours people have come and gone and the play has been generally LAG. There are 3 recognised pro's at your table but you have been holding your own and you have around 13K from your original 10K and the average is about 14K. Your own image is probably LAG as you have been raising with a lot of hands mainly concentrating on two unknown players on the table who have been playing relatively tight. You are UTG+1 with KK and you raise it 900 to go. Folds round to the cut off (one of the tight players) who min reraises - button, SB, BB fold You to go - you raise to 3600 he calls. Flop comes Q 9 6 two spades you stick in 4000 he calls. Turn comes a red 10 you think for a while and check he quickly checks River comes 4 of spades you check he puts you all in. Do you call or fold? What hand do you put him on? Why did you check the turn?

OK I'm no tourney player (at all barely) but this is quite intriguing. Firstly I'd want to put him on a range for minraising. Hopefully by looking at hands I've seen him minraise already, as I've never understood the point of minraising in NLH so I find it hard to define a range for. I would definitely not be min-reraising - but maybe you have reason? Still a move I despise though. The turn I would very rarely check as those before have said. If I did check (which I have done at similar times in cash games) it's because I'm aware of the opponents tendency to float and take down a pot on the turn, and I would be planning to take advantage with a CRAI. But still, I'm virtually never checking this turn. You are only really behind to 78 or a set, both of which you will get more indication of if he raises your turn bet, rather than simply bets out himself (as this can be a float). The river call or fold is very player dependent. Basically it's flush or bluff (possibly with weird hands like 44 showing up). But to say it's a fold because "all you are beating is a bluff" is ridiculous to me because all you need to be beating is a bluff here. On a board with multiple straight and a flush draw opportunities he can have many missed draws and bluff many scare cards on the river. ie. any spade, any K, any 8... etc. The deciding factor must be how you have seen him play and what his propensity to bet/bluff scarecards is. I think it may be a call, but I'd like to know more than he is "tight" to decide.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle

I've never understood the point of minraising in NLH so I find it hard to define a range for.

agree min reraise gains nothing thus making it impossible to define villains range etc BUT i think maybe the key here is that he checks behind on the turn, he seems weak all through the preflop action until the river, is he happy with the river? possibly :\:crymaybe AK spades, but you have two kings so less likely. is this why you dont tell us the suits of your kings?

[rosco]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle I would have raised again on the Turn. but on the river, I put him on a big hand, He knows you dont have the flush with the check so he can easily represent the flush. with this and his stack this makes it easier to put you all in. personally I would put him on trip tens or jacks, slight possbility Queens. Any how you still have 7k roughly in chips so plenty of play. so I would have folded.

[AlunB]

Re: Live hand from the GUK Newcastle Results? It will indeed be in the August issue of IP with some analysis by Jeff Kimber. WASP is not mentioned sadly, although I will put his name in the contributors list at the front. Tell me the results and I will tell you what Jeff said.