It is good to share

[ubermonkey1]

Re: It is good to share

What type of player would you class me as feel or maths ?

i know you know the math side ,but i dont think you use it as an overiding factor so more feel;)

[ubermonkey1]

Re: It is good to share

I'm obviously in that camp as well :$ I think the difficulty is that offering an opinion is often interpreted (not just by Mr V) as "shooting you down", when it's intended as just another view to be added to the catalogue of views on offer. I feel I've gone the other way now in a lot of threads where I'm "scared" to offer my opinion where it differs from some members in case it may be interpreted as shooting them down. However we never learn more (all parties) than when we disagree and can debate the disagreement in a reasoned fashion - regardless of who is right and wrong in the end (or if noone is right or wrong) - it is during the journey that we learn..... I suppose the other side is - the players who take poker less seriously - Do you want to learn? Do you want to improve? or do you just want to enjoy your poker as it is? My overriding goal is to get better. I think others overriding goal (quite reasonably) is to enjoy their poker. Most are probably somewhere inbetween. Speaking specifically about slapdash - in my mind, he has by far and away the best theoretical understanding of the game, the situations and of poker, on PL. His are the views I always look for the most. He is the one I feel I can learn most from. Yet despite this, I think he massively underachieves in his poker - he hasn't had the big wins that a large proportion on PL have managed. I cannot explain this underachievement, but maybe he lacks the qualitative side to his poker that players like Heniek have. If this is the case, then Slapdash could learn a lot from the views of "feel" players if it shows him a different persective to the thinking than he curtrently has and maybe it could take him from being the best theroetical player on PL to someone who could be really REALLY successful in reality. Everyone can learn from everyone on PL!

this has sort of turned into a similar discussion to the live pro vs online maths guys running war. i think that looking at things from a different prospective is always a good thing and is only ever going to help to improve someones game.i definately wouldnt say feel or math is better, but having the ability to get your head round both is surely only going to help. one thing that i would say is that i do tend to find the more math based players easier to play and read than someone like heniek .after speaking to a few other players i think quite a few people seem to think the same thing. maybe its because their strategy is easier to pick up and act on :unsurebut i would definately say that my confidence increases against this sort of player:ok i'm not saying that using that sort of strategy is wrong as a lot of great maths based players do amazingly well, especially online,but being slightly one dimensional is maybe to easy to counteract;)

[Valiant23]

Re: It is good to share Slappy/Gaf?, Being 'shot down' is how it feels, even though I know that its the last way its ever meant. For my part, I fell frustrated on two fronts. Firstly, I know that there are more 'feel' players than just me on PL but when there is a decision that feels right even if its mathematically wrong, generally its Mr V versus Slappy/Gaffy. Secondly, I guess I find it a bit disappointing that two of PLers most learned members, both with a seemingly insatiable appetite for knowledge are so quick to completely dismiss what a lot of players rely on. I wish you two were a bit more open minded. On any other level, unless I'm having a sulk I don't feel belittled by either of you. Its wrong to say that you belittle anyone and I'm sure everyone on PL would agree....except for Nade....he thinks you're both a pair of cnuts. :lol

[GaF]

Re: It is good to share

I wish you two were a bit more open minded.

Persuade us :ok We both want to learn, we both want to improve :ok How can we be open minded to views that are seldom expressed? :unsure I'd love to see a video session, with audio commentary from one of our "feel" players :ok

[slapdash]

Re: It is good to share

Speaking specifically about slapdash - in my mind, he has by far and away the best theoretical understanding of the game, the situations and of poker, on PL. His are the views I always look for the most. He is the one I feel I can learn most from. Yet despite this, I think he massively underachieves in his poker - he hasn't had the big wins that a large proportion on PL have managed. I cannot explain this underachievement, but maybe he lacks the qualitative side to his poker that players like Heniek have. If this is the case, then Slapdash could learn a lot from the views of "feel" players if it shows him a different persective to the thinking than he curtrently has and maybe it could take him from being the best theroetical player on PL to someone who could be really REALLY successful in reality. Everyone can learn from everyone on PL!

You've got me blushing now :$, and I think you overrate me. I think I have a fairly realistic view of my own poker abilities, and I'm good at some things, but very bad at others. The next sentence is going to sound breathtakingly arrogant, so please don't stop there: read the rest of the paragraph. I think there are a few aspects of the mathematics of poker that I understand better than many, or even most, professionals. But I'm under no illusions that this makes me even a fraction of the poker player they are; it just makes me a better mathematician. Maths has its place in poker, but the minutiae of poker mathematics are just not a huge factor compared to many other things. Of course, knowing the maths is better than not knowing the maths, but however well you know it, you're never going to be a good poker player if that's the only string to your bow. I think I'm at my best playing in tournaments with a slightly unusual format (e.g., satellites with a lot of qualifiers, or STTs with unusual prize structures, such as top 5 get the same prize), where the different maths affects strategy in ways that less mathematical players don't think about. One thing I'm very bad at, especially playing online, is paying attention to other people's style of play. One thing that helped me a lot was a post by WASP (which he's probably forgotten about by now), suggesting that you try to predict what other players are going to do before they act, and make a mental note if they do something different. So yes, I can learn a lot from reading posts here by people with different skills. Another thing I'm bad at is a tendency to make monumental blunders without thinking, which I know are crass the second after I make them. This is especially frustrating in deep-stacked tournaments (which are my favourite form of poker), when I donk my way out after playing for four or five hours.

[slapdash]

Re: It is good to share

For my part, I fell frustrated on two fronts. Firstly, I know that there are more 'feel' players than just me on PL but when there is a decision that feels right even if its mathematically wrong, generally its Mr V versus Slappy/Gaffy. Secondly, I guess I find it a bit disappointing that two of PLers most learned members, both with a seemingly insatiable appetite for knowledge are so quick to completely dismiss what a lot of players rely on. I wish you two were a bit more open minded.

I honestly think I am open-minded, though obviously on this occasion I didn't show it (I don't remember exactly what I posted). I'm sorry if it seemed as though I was completely dismissing other people's views. But I remember the general tone of the discussion, and I remember that I also felt rather frustrated, not because I thought other people were being idiots, but because I honestly couldn't understand their point ... and I wanted to understand, especially since some of the people on the "other side" were much better poker players than me!

[ubermonkey1]

Re: It is good to share

One thing I'm very bad at, especially playing online, is paying attention to other people's style of play. One thing that helped me a lot was a post by WASP (which he's probably forgotten about by now), suggesting that you try to predict what other players are going to do before they act, and make a mental note if they do something different. So yes, I can learn a lot from reading posts here by people with different skills. Another thing I'm bad at is a tendency to make monumental blunders without thinking, which I know are crass the second after I make them. This is especially frustrating in deep-stacked tournaments (which are my favourite form of poker), when I donk my way out after playing for four or five hours.

you definately need to pay good attention to be able to pick up the info you need to play by feel,if not you can't play your opponent only your cards;) i know that if i'm tired i concentrate less and the reads start to disappear. if i am consentrating on other things it also spoils my game a little ,which is why i tend to stear clear of multitabling too much if possible. by the sound of the comment about making a mistake but instantly knowing its wrong, the feel you need is there but you are not using it. if you get a feeling about somthing try using it:ok if you suddenly think he will fold if i bet do it . if you think he has me beat ,dont talk yourself into calling :spankuse the instinct and fold. one of the things that i have been trying to improve most recently is having the confidence to use this instinct more. i know the mole talks about needing more confidence and i take it he means this rather than i can win sort of confidence(although you need that as well).

[ColU_FC]

Re: It is good to share

I have been wondering this for a long while now' date=' why the better and most successful players on PL never give us their thoughts in this section?[/quote'] There are three reasons I rarely post in the Stategy section: 1. I'm not 'one of the better and most successful players on PL'. 2. GaF's comment sums me up perfectly: I'm in the 'enjoy their poker' camp. However, I do like to learn and improve and I recognise that my lack of reading and contributing to the Strategy section therefore is illogical. 3. I enjoy communicating using written English. However, I find trying to communicate my reasoning behind my actions in written English very hard. For me, it is very much easier to do this face to face using the spoken word. Another GaF quote:

[ubermonkey1]

Re: It is good to share the boot camp idea sounds like a good plan:ok although the strategy threads are very usefull i think live is the way to go,you can get over a lot more stuff and its a lot easier to give advice as things are happening. i would be happy to be involved:ok

[Fonzie14]

Re: It is good to share I think a PL boot camp is a great idea. :clap Not sure how it need to be run though, but I would certainly be up for it. :ok

[morlspin]

Re: It is good to share Ive got a few contacts i can call on and ask if we can get one set up, shouldnt be difficult at all really, and hour or two theory from some bigger names, then have an mtt where they can analyze your play afterwards. Theres also the APAT Boot camp at DTD, where you have some of the best UK players training you in the likes of Simon Trumper, Paul Jackson etc. This costs £99 for the day and it finishes in time for the evening £50 freezeout.

APAT Administrator Platinum Member Posts: 1590

APAT Partners With DTD To Provide Live Training « on: April 14, 2008, 11:58:38 am » Quote APAT Academy Partners With Dusk Till Dawn To Provide Live Poker Training. London, April 14th, 2008 - The APAT Poker Association & Tour have announced a strategic partnership with Dusk Till Dawn; Europe's premier cardroom, to provide live poker training for APAT members. Under the tutorship of professional player Paul Jackson, each APAT Academy live day will address the theory of multi table tournaments in early, middle and late stages, player position, assessing player holdings and bankroll management, while Late Night Poker legend Simon Trumper will lecture on player psychology and tells. Live training days will also touch on sit 'n' go strategy, cash game selection and limits. A feature of APAT Academy live training days will be the addition of a guest professional who will offer an insight into the way they play the game. Attendees of the first three APAT Academy live days will have the opportunity to sit with the William Hill sponsored, European Poker Tour and multi Grosvenor UK Poker Tour Champion, Julian Thew. APAT Academy live days will be held at Dusk Till Dawn in Nottingham. Each event will start at 1.30pm and last for 6 hours, enabling attendees to enter the evening tournament at Dusk Till Dawn. The cost of a training day is £99 per player, which does not include entry to the evening tournament. The first three live days are scheduled as follows, with the first event going on sale from www.apat.com on Thursday May 8th at 9pm sharp. May 31st. July 26th. September 30th. APAT membership is free and available from www.apat.com. About APAT Academy APAT is a leader in the provision of live and online poker training through its partnerships with world leading online training provider CardRunners.com and premier live cardroom Dusk Till Dawn. With the availability of cost efficient training, APAT members are able to gain an excellent understanding of how to play poker in both live and online environments. For further details, contact APAT Media Director Richard Prew at [email protected].

[BAM]

Re: It is good to share Dave you constant amaze me with your poker persecution complex and other players show it in strategy when they post "I'm just a novice" or "for what it is worth" and "I'm no expert but" and like you these are players we rate highly and value their opinions. I just wish they (and you) would open up more and have the confidence to speak your mind about the game, what is the worse that can happen? ( a berating from Gaf and Slap I suppose but you do get use to that trust me) A boot camp is a good idea but why pay numpties like Paul Jackson when we have the knowledge within ourselves. It goes back to my point about the hendon mob, the hitsquad, the glenfiddich gang - they are constantly in each others heads reflecting, sharing knowledge and improving because of that, surely that can be done via a forum as well?

[ColU_FC]

Re: It is good to share

A boot camp is a good idea but why pay numpties like Paul Jackson when we have the knowledge within ourselves.

I agree. I reckon that if a number of us got together with 3 laptops and played say 1 cash game, 1 STT and 1 MTT and watched, questioned, made suggestions, etc, then we'd all learn one hell of a lot more in a very short space of time. I'd love to watch hen and slappy playing their games, I know it would teach me more than any poker mag, books or poker pro's boot camp ever could manage. I'd even volunteer to play an MTT myself in order to give you all a good laugh. ;) I'll say it again, if there are a number of you that would like to do this then I don't mind doing most of the legwork.

[McG]

Re: It is good to share I'm definitely in the "I play poker to enjoy it" gang. I hardly ever play cash, because I've lost far too many buy-ins, and I've moved away from STT to concentrate almost solely on MTT. My stakes are well within my comfort zone, and fairly low compared to some others here (last night's €10 BTB game was higher than my normal buy-in) but I do feel uncomfortable playing higher than that, because I tell myself that, as a broad rule, the players are better there. My strategy, limited though it is, tends not to vary too much, but I've certainly tried to be tighter early on, but looser in later stages. My problem is that I struggle to loosen up in small degrees. Top Pair on the flop with a reasonable kicker can look like the nuts to me after an hour or so of getting nothing. As an example, I enjoy playing the $10 8:30 Sunday game on PS. Over the last 8 weeks or so, I've cashed about 4 or 5 times, but have made a crass mistake or two when in the money, and I look back and think "You absolute to55er! You've played sensibly for about 3 hours, then you donk it all away". One thing I have tried to bring in to my game is the understanding of position and the value of hands, dependent on where you are sat. AQo looks much more attractive on the button than UTG, but isn't a hand to get too fond of if a huge raise comes in. As with Mr V, I struggle more to read the "impulse" players, especially when I see their bluffs called by others, when I would have folded, and I would include Fenners in this, as I haven't a clue what his tactics are, other than to be fairly aggressive when he bets (usualy on my BB). I've lost count of the number of times I have misread one of their larger bets as a steal, and pushed back, only to then realise that this is the time that they actually have a hand.

[McG]

Re: It is good to share Just one more thing - after the restrictions, imposed by myself for Sunday night's game, I do enjoy letting my hair down on Monday night with Virgin's cheapskates. It is great therapy, very cheap, but has good rewards if you cash. It's a good release from the normal stresses and strains of concentrating intently on position, value etc.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: It is good to share

Dave you constant amaze me with your poker persecution complex and other players show it in strategy when they post "I'm just a novice" or "for what it is worth" and "I'm no expert but" and like you these are players we rate highly and value their opinions. I just wish they (and you) would open up more and have the confidence to speak your mind about the game, what is the worse that can happen? ( a berating from Gaf and Slap I suppose but you do get use to that trust me) A boot camp is a good idea but why pay numpties like Paul Jackson when we have the knowledge within ourselves. It goes back to my point about the hendon mob, the hitsquad, the glenfiddich gang - they are constantly in each others heads reflecting, sharing knowledge and improving because of that, surely that can be done via a forum as well?

i think brians right:loonand in a way it already happens at pl meets and our home games etc. as brian said before, we not only drink :cheers we also talk about hands and show a lot more cards during play etc. our home game is why i have a pretty good understanding of how hen plays;) dont get me wrong that doesn't make hen much easier to play against(bloody polish hungarian as brian would put it:lol) ,but it does give you an insight into how his mind is working. in fact i think our home game has probably made me a much better player and has had one of the biggest effects on me play wise:ok it really helps having quite a few very good players to play against regularly , to be honest i reckon this could be a good format for regional boot camps. maybe chat, play through a few hands etc then have a fun/show and tell game at the end. i would think that there would be quite a few experianced players willing to share with each other in each area and also help any newbies that would want it:ok as brian says our collective knowledge is more than enough, we don't need to be paying:loonbut i think the live enviroment is a much better way of expressing a lot more in a short space of time and would maybe be more benifical to all.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: It is good to share

Another thing I'm bad at is a tendency to make monumental blunders without thinking' date=' which I know are crass the second after I make them.[/quote'] - Ditto - :$