BAM Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Farnood gets a Penalty Sherkhan Farnood has just recieved a 5 hand penalty for collusion. In a three way pot with Istvan Novak and Jon Persson he was the last to act. The action went check check on the river so Farnood checked also. He turned over the nut flush and there is now a very very big debate going on as to whether that is collusion. Tony G wants him to have a longer penality. Farnood claims he didnt realise what he has. Persson has one chip Wow what do you make of that then, this should make a good thread for strategy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: WSOPe £5000 PL Omaha live updates I can think of scenarios where I wouldn't raise, acting last, with the nuts, and it wouldn't be for reasons of collusion..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted September 9, 2007 Author Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: WSOPe £5000 PL Omaha live updates I can think of scenarios where I wouldn't raise' date=' acting last, with the nuts, and it wouldn't be for reasons of collusion.....[/quote'] Is it a secret? :unsure The reason I would do it is to gather info but would you do it at the risk of not eliminating a player when you are reaching the final table bubble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: WSOPe £5000 PL Omaha live updates Is it a secret? :unsure The reason I would do it is to gather info but would you do it at the risk of not eliminating a player when you are reaching the final table bubble If it's near the bubble and you have a large stack, then you might be able to steal a lot while the smaller stacks are scared of bubbling. So you might want to delay the bubble, not knocking a player out, so you can continue stealing for a bit longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: WSOPe £5000 PL Omaha live updates Not necessarily just on the bubble, but if I had a big stack and the other players are playing cautiously then I would want to keep the small stacks in as it increases my fold equity against the middle stacks ..... indeed it's something I frequently do (keep short stacks alive, not fold/check the nuts) in STTs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted September 9, 2007 Author Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: WSOPe £5000 PL Omaha live updates Interesting point but conventional wisdom is to eliminate a player when you get the chance and the fact that his explanation was "he didn't realise what he had" suggests he was up to something else and the TD agreed by giving him a 5 hand penalty. Maybe a permanent ban and a public flogging is too much but he is an Afgan ;). Can you imagine what Tony G is saying to him now :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts Moved this into its own thread in Strategy :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted September 9, 2007 Author Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts Moved this into its own thread in Strategy :ok Jeez GaF let me edit my first post then ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts Wow what do you make of that then' date=' this should make a good thread for strategy[/quote'] :lol Interesting point GaF makes of keeping in the low stacked players. Personally I like to get rid of as many players as possible. 1 less player means I am one closer to the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts In the 5 seat turbo STTs if we are down to 3 players and I am the big stack I try to manage it - it's surprising how often you can get Heads Up with your opponent on just a few hundred chips.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted September 9, 2007 Author Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts In the 5 seat turbo STTs if we are down to 3 players and I am the big stack I try to manage it - it's surprising how often you can get Heads Up with your opponent on just a few hundred chips.... Dont forget this is deepstack hour blinds PLO here. He is not that bigger stack and in PLO things can soon go wrong and keeping short stacks in on the bubble could soon come back and bite you in the ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts I didn't say that I thought he was right to do it there (I dont know what his situation was) - my post was more a general one relating to the rule that if you dont bet the nuts when last to act, you are cheating/colluding - right or wrong people CAN believe that they have legitimate reasons not to bet, without it being for reasons of collusion/cheating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts I've sometimes checked the nuts on the river, but onyl when wanting to check-raise. Never when acting last. When you are last to go and have the Nuts you need to bet your hand I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted September 9, 2007 Author Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts I didn't say that I thought he was right to do it there (I dont know what his situation was) - my post was more a general one relating to the rule that if you dont bet the nuts when last to act' date=' you are cheating/colluding - right or wrong people CAN believe that they have legitimate reasons not to bet, without it being for reasons of collusion/cheating[/quote'] Ah well it is getting confusing now GaF as my first post was, WTF do you think this guy is playing at here type post, relating to this situation. If you want to move the goalposts then thats fine by me :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts Ah well it is getting confusing now GaF as my first post was, WTF do you think this guy is playing at here type post, relating to this situation. If you want to move the goalposts then thats fine by me :tongue2 Sorry, I cant remember what it said before you started editing it :tongue2 :moon :moon :moon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted September 9, 2007 Author Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts :rollin:rollin To be serious though GaF even though you have raised a very interesting point, that I have never considered before, thanks :ok I wanted to know what people thought of this controversial situation. Originally Posted by morlspin Farnood gets a Penalty Sherkhan Farnood has just recieved a 5 hand penalty for collusion. In a three way pot with Istvan Novak and Jon Persson he was the last to act. The action went check check on the river so Farnood checked also. He turned over the nut flush and there is now a very very big debate going on as to whether that is collusion. Tony G wants him to have a longer penality. Farnood claims he didnt realise what he had. Persson has one chip Just remember this is the WSOP with the final table looming and very big money at stake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts I wanted to know what people thought of this controversial situation. The rule's an Ass (which is the point I was trying to make ;) ) - your cards are yours to play as you wish, but he broke the rule and must suffer the consequences - not enough information on the situation there (why would he collude? Who was he colluding with? Is he Jamie Gold in disguise?) so I think we have to accept the TDs judgement.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted September 9, 2007 Author Share Posted September 9, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts The rule's an Ass (which is the point I was trying to make ;) ) - your cards are yours to play as you wish' date= but he broke the rule and must suffer the consequences - not enough information on the situation there (why would he collude? Who was he colluding with? Is he Jamie Gold in disguise?) so I think we have to accept the TDs judgement.... Fair point but when it gets suspicious we have to have some sort of order otherwise our game would be left open to the cheats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 Re: WSOPe £5000 PL Omaha live updates Not necessarily just on the bubble' date=' but if I had a big stack and the other players are playing cautiously then I would want to keep the small stacks in as it increases my fold equity against the middle stacks ..... indeed it's something I frequently do (keep short stacks alive, not fold/check the nuts) in STTs[/quote'] I've never thought about it like that, i've always been one to target the poor and get in a race against them to a) knock another person out and b) build your stack, obvious i think we all know. One of my main reasons for avoiding a large confrontation with a larger stack - although i steal their blinds more frequently as they fold hoping the short stack(s) will go out first - is the fact that they have the capability to take a large chunk of chips from you and also it's a lot harder to get them to commit chips unless they have an extremely good hand for the reasons stated above. Also deliberately not knocking a short stack out gives your opponents more chance to build their stacks by knocking out the short stack(s). What i usually do is steal from the ave. stacks to reduce everyone's stacks then get into a race situation with a small stack. The small stacks usually will wait for any ace to push so i have no problem calling or pusing v them with a suited connector as it will be a pretty even race. For example yesterday i had about 6k so called a short stack who had about 1000 left on the bubble with 7,9 spades, he had A5off and i won, i then got a load of abuse 'you donk' etc. but i personally will take this situation 10/10 times instead of keeping the bubble going longer. This method has been working for me as in the $5 SNG's on Stars in the last week or so i've cashed 20/46 and won 11 of the 20 out right, which i think reflects that building your own stack by getting rid of the short stacks works a treat to push on for victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted September 10, 2007 Author Share Posted September 10, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts I see he finished 6th which is disappointing bearing in mind the position he was in coming to the final table. I still cannot help thinking that maximising his position on the river with a nice value bet may have got him two callers and more chips. You never know what could have happened if he had extra chips to play with, bird in the hand etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts The rule's an Ass (which is the point I was trying to make ;) ) - your cards are yours to play as you wish' date=' but he broke the rule and must suffer the consequences - not enough information on the situation there (why would he collude? Who was he colluding with? Is he Jamie Gold in disguise?) so I think we have to accept the TDs judgement....[/quote'] I doubt very much that there's a rule that specifically says "Thou shalt not check the nuts last to act on the river." I looked briefly at the WSOP rules, and the only relevant thing I could see was a rather vague rule against soft-playing, which didn't say exactly what counted as soft-playing. IMO, it's perfectly ethical to play in a way that you believe to increase your own chances in the tournament, however it affects the relative chances of other players. But deliberately playing in such a way as to benefit another player, when you don't believe it benefits you, shouldn't be allowed. The problem is that this involves judging intent, so mistakes are often going to be made, and in practice penalties will be given for "acting in a fishy manner". But even the top players do occasionally make real blunders (in the same tournament, Dave Ulliott won a pot with a flush he didn't realize he had), so if the only evidence is what a player did on a single hand, then a penalty of some number of hands seems adequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts I have flat called with the nuts on the river to get information on the bettor. But I will have to try and understand GaFs theory as it sounds correct Reminds me of a situation in a £100 buy in FO in Glasgow casino when I raised preflop got reraised and reraised again so I folded. Action was checked down, one guy flopped set of queens, other guy made nut straight- found out in break they were father and son Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts I doubt very much that there's a rule that specifically says "Thou shalt not check the nuts last to act on the river." I may be wrong, but I believe it was a new (and specific) rule introduced at this years WSOP.... :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/tourney/updates_pn.asp?tourneyID=3482&groupid=309&m=7&d=6&y=2007 Saturday, July 07, 2007 3:33:14 AM Floor! A sticky hand broke out at Johnny Lodden's table, in which the dealer incorrectly awarded the pot to Lodden. The board read x-K-10-J-x and both Lodden and his opponent checked the river. At the showdown, Lodden's opponent turned over A-Q for a Broadway straight, while Lodden showed K-Q, for top pair and a busted straight draw. The dealer mucked the A-Q and pushed the pot to Lodden, then proceeded to start shuffling the next hand. Players at the table called for the floor, who eventually ruled that Lodden must return the 23,600 pot to his opponent. We should also note that there was a possible flush on the board, making Lodden's opponent's check on the river a legitimate one. A recently implemented rule here at the World Series states that if a player has last action and checks the absolute nuts, he would receive a one-round penalty for collusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts "Thou shalt not check the nuts last to act on the river."There is. :ok In Barrys there is a sign warning that 'saving the last bet is not allowed' (or similar). Rich said that it was for exactly this kind of situation, and is used to prevent collusion. He must be best qualified to answer this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 Re: Checking/Folding the Nuts But surely sometimes it would be best to Check to get a read on other players. Only if you know you will get no action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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