AFL - Round 8

[Ashtee]

Saints are putting out a below strength team and together with a couple of mid-fielders playing injured or underdone, they are so far performing just fairly. I feel Carlton have a good crack at this. They go in boosted off a win whereas I think some of their previous form has lacked confidence. They have played the last three at MCG while St. Kilda have not played there this season and it is well known that they much prefer Telstra. Fisher (Carlton’s) out but they now have a relatively injury free line-up that can trouble the Saints. I suggest teams get a chance for their share of mid-field ball against St. Kilda. Fevola, Waite, Whitnall, Betts can open up a suspect Saints defence. They have key defenders in good form, so must be a good shot at limiting just the two Saints tall forwards. The main area that lets the Blues down is usually a few of their small-mediums who seem not up to the standard although I notice Bentick was rated close to BOG LW. I anticipate Milne will be included but I still feel the door is a little ajar given how these two teams structure. Showers possible. My rating; St. Kilda 8/13<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Geelong have had players filtering back, so should put out a strong squad. A squad about to build on some confidence off last week IMO. Collingwood are in a potential let down situation IMV. The travel/tough game factor is there, but the big one for me is that they come off a honourable loss, a scenario I like to oppose. I won't be surprised to see them mentally off 5% after having a consistent string of form following Rd-1. Both sides have had a run at the G this season. A lot of punters having trouble picking this but I confidently have the Cats a 1.76 chance.

Brisbane were good last week. Seemingly boosted in morale after team unity issues had been addressed during the week. I did think Hawthorn’s effort was poor though, perhaps going through a let down period after some good form, and undoubtedly lacking team structure. Port’s form has obviously been very mixed. We’ve so far seen them either switched on or off and after last week, ON looks very likely for this. I believe that Brisbane is not top-8 quality and I’m prepared to punt on a Port team, at home, that should have much better structure and focus than Hawthorn provided last week. My rating; Port 1.47

Second placed premiership contender West Coast is obviously much to good for bottom placed Essendon. Essendon without Hird, Lloyd and Camporeale, at least. Say no more! So I’m possibly going to back Essendon in this. Motivating factors are a consideration here, as proves sometimes the case with such games. I have to honestly ask myself the likelihood of West Coast being OFF given they’re season focus seems heightened, but I think it’s very possible and that at 6.00 or +38.5 Essendon are a viable play. (Start laughing, if not already. I get that a lot.)

[TazaD]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Funny how in 8 games of AFL football, it looks like we'll be betting on 4 seperate games each! I haven't had a really close look yet, but early thoughts are Melbourne -18.5 over a very depleted Hawthorn team, Sydney -10 over a Doggies midfield that still can't quite match it with the big boys, Kangas + @ Freo and Crows - a million!! Richmond will get their third 100+ point belting of the season. Good luck on that Port game mate...Brisbane's terrible road form v. Port's absolute ineptatude...brave man! :D

[matjnewton]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Hey guys Disagree with Ash re: the Saints. From memory they had a better record at the G last season than the Dome, where they only started to win games at the end of the season. They seem to be following a similar trajectory to last season, which would see them win this match. Saints have a few players out but that is no biggie, last year they had something like 4 matches that featured Hamill, Riewoldt, Gehrig and Kosi. For a third forward, Schwarze last week showed a capacity to take a contested grab - that guy is all muscles. Brett Voss and Brendan Goddard are likewise fantastic overhead. Re: Carlton, I would expect them to disappoint coming off a big win. Agree re: geelong. Expect Geelong to build on performance last week. However it's really Collingwood's to drop, which they probably will. It's the classic situation of a form team hitting a double bump. Hopefully Zac Dawson gets a bit of a rest fhis week. There's no powerhouse forward like Rocca or Brown to kick 8 goals on him. All these pummellings are really gonna make or break this kid. I think he will turn out to be a fantastic fullback. He's learning the job handicapped by 10-20kgs. So his body will start naturally learning all the little tricks to take them on to reduce the gap. And then one day he will be the right weight, have the same tricks, and BOOM. Mal Michael part Deux. Mat.

[Ashtee]

Re: AFL - Round 8 1. Yeah, Scharwz is showing some good signs Mat and gives them a versatile big man option. I'm just wondering how Voss and Goddard are really going to go on Fev, Waite or big Lance if they choose to drop him forward. They have some KP versatility advantage this week IMO that they havn't always had this season. 2. I know the Saints built in momentum last year but is their mid-field going as well? I thought Ball was good against WBD (who lacked their usual run that day) but overall he is playing hampered. The ageing Harvey and Thompson are not in great form. Gram, Fiora and Montagna, despite glimpses of flair, are far from complete footballers IMV. 3. Yes, fair observation on MCG 5-1, Telstra 8-4, so they did turn their form around last season. Yet to play at G TS though, while Blues played last three their. 4. It was obviously a D-grade fixture last week but I doubt Blues are ready for a downer yet after having been on that for a few weeks previously (just the way I personally see it though Mat :)). Blues are overs this week IMO and the beauty of it is if the Saints win I'll still claim it because I make them the fave :lol Ps. Anyone know what time the Green v Mundine fight will be on (i suppose there will be undercard bouts) and I assume it's on Foxsports is it?

[TazaD]

Re: AFL - Round 8 The fight "starts" at 5.30 pm, Ash...but yeah, not sure what time the main bout gets under way. Not on Fox tho...it's on Main Event...you have to pay to see it. I'll just throw my 2 cents worth in...Saints = very over-rated...Carlton = very bad! :D Hudgeton out makes them VERY suspect down back I believe...Goddard?? Has never played on an opponent in his life!!!...All well and good to take 15 marks a game on your own, but we saw how Joel Bowden went last week when he was forced to actually play some defense. But, as you say, they have a good recent record at the MCG...an even better recent record against the Blues, with 3 x 80+ beltings in a row (2 @ Optus, so not just indoors). Tough one to get involved with imo. On closer inspection, I've decided to go with the 4 I mentioned and also Brisbane +12.5...I just can't see how the worst team in the comp can be 2 goal favs over anyone, anywhere!!...back later with some reasons.

[Ashtee]

Re: AFL - Round 8

On closer inspection' date=' I've decided to go with the 4 I mentioned and also Brisbane +12.5...I just can't see how the worst team in the comp can be 2 goal favs over anyone, anywhere!!...back later with some reasons.

Uh huh, and they beat the Saints and an underdone Sydney as their only two wins, so a sound basis for your bet there Taza. If I go ahead and play them (on the belief that they'll fire up) a 12pt win after a couple of junk time goals to Bris will do me just fine :ok. I think the books are being a bit trusting of good old Freo. We can almost write-off any shalacking a team cops at the hands of Adelaide, so I may play the Roos myself if a bit more than the 4.00 shows up. The concern is, that as we saw with WBD off their Adel match, is how will it affect Kangas confidence. Some of the psychology is perhaps different in that WBD were a case of 'sat on their bums' by Adel wheras Kangas already know they have their backs to the wall.

Not on Fox tho...it's on Main Event...you have to pay to see it.

I play pool Wednesday nights, so hopefully this means it'll be on at the pub.

[matjnewton]

Re: AFL - Round 8

I'm just wondering how Voss and Goddard are really going to go on Fev, 2. Gram, Fiora and Montagna, despite glimpses of flair, are far from complete footballers IMV. 4. It was obviously a D-grade fixture last week but I doubt Blues are ready for a downer yet after having been on that for a few weeks previously (just the way I personally see it though Mat :)). Blues are overs this week IMO and the beauty of it is if the Saints win I'll still claim it because I make them the fave :lol

Hehe nice. And I think all comments I make need to be interpreted in the context of me being a Saints fan. Agree with you re: gram, fiora and montagna. Out of the 3 i dont think fiora will make it, the other two should. Gram really needs to work on his decision making skills. Dal Santo's mere presence on the field already shows him up. Re: blues, when I look at them... You know how your team sucks, it gets a win, and you start to think ... hey, maybe they're not so bad! Then next week you are crying into your beer...? that's the way i see the blues last week. Injuries will hurt Saints, however Saints have already knocked off one or two crappy sides, they should make it another. And on a non Saints v. Blues related note, do the Crows make you shiver in your boots or what? All credit to Neil Craig. I wish the Saints could get him.. Actually, that's an interesting point. Coaches don't seem to shift clubs much without a break in between. Never seems to be bidding wars. We've seen the farce in the NRL with the Eels and Knights. For those who are unaware, at the start of the seasons the Eels signed the Knights coach for 07 before 06 season even started. And then Knights went and did likewise with the Eels coach. (Who this week resigned cos his team is doing crap.) Hopefully we never descend intp that ridiculous madness. Mat.

[TazaD]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Adelaide -36.5 The Crows have won the last 3 meetings by 70, 52 & 75, 2 of which (the biggest 2 as it happens!) were at the dome....and it seems that indoors is where the Crows play some of their best football. They have topped 100 in their last 6 games (going back to 2005) at an av. of 115 ppg. On the other hand, in 3 games there this season, Richmond have scored 52, 77 and 66!...and it doesn't figure to improve this week against one of the tighest midfields and best defense in the AFL. Adelaide allow just 41 inside 50's per game (best), have 12 more entries per game than their opp (best), and allow just 70 points per game (also best!) To make things even worst, Richmond have the worst defense in the AFL, allowing 119 ppg, and a shot at goal every 1.77 entries into their 50. Adelaide have had at least 25 shots at goal in every game except the loss to West Coast, so I really do expect this to be another thumping loss for the Tiges... ...(unless Wallace plays 'safe' and puts on the biggest flood yet seen, which I wouldn't put passed him...either way, I can't see how Richmond kick more than 8-9 goals, and the Crows have the skills and patience to still kick a score) Kangaroos +24.5 Fremantle just don't win by big enough margins to deserve this kind of spread. Even in games they 'dominate', they still usually manage to let their opp back into the game at some stage. Only one win in their last 10 games (5 wins) has been by more, and that was at Port this season, who are just about the worst team in the comp, by 31. The midfields are incredibly close (amazingly the Kangaroos have both allowed and gained exactly 350 inside 50's...50 for and against per game!)...Freo get and allow 49 per game...so with the evenness in the middle it's hard to see how Freo are 4 goals better off at either end. The Kangaroos have allowed a couple of big scores, but only due to some very straight kicking by Geelong (22.6), Adelaide (18.8), with only really Collingwood dominating them. The Kangaroos have wonthe last 2 meetings at Subi by 17 and 22 points, both a decent under-dogs, and I think people are taking last weeks belting a bit too seriously, as a lot of teams will get thrashed by the Crows! Not sure they can win, but think it will be close either way.

[matjnewton]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Agree Taz. Adelaide will kill Tigers. The Tiges can't handle pressure and Adelaide are the pressure team.

[TazaD]

Re: AFL - Round 8 If I go ahead and play them (on the belief that they'll fire up) a 12pt win after a couple of junk time goals to Bris will do me just fine :ok. How about they sneak home by a point after trailing all night mate ;) lol! Brisbane +13.5 All this talk about Brisbane being on the downward slide, but it's amazing how closely this season has mirrored 2005 for them! Beaten by Richmond and Sydney at home...Belted by St. Kilda in Melbourne. Beat Hawthorn easily at home...beat Essendon at home!!... ...They went to Port last year and lost by 2 points in a thriller in Rd. 2 (remembering of course that they were last on just one win after rd 5.)...also Tredrea kicked 5 that game which won't happen again. I said last week that Port have the worst midfield in the AFL...they now average 10 less inside 50's per game than their opp! They've allowed the second most points in the comp. I think Brisbane are better than their record suggests after playing a pretty tough opening schedule, and as I said earlier, I can't see how the worst team in the AFL is favoured by more than 2 goals. Sydney -9.5 No coincidence that the Bulldogs two losses this season have come against two of the best midfields. Adelaide (best, +11.5 inside 50's per game!), St. Kilda (4th, +4)...now they play Sydney who have the second best (+10). Teams with the stronger midfield can obviously get it and move it forward, but more importantly in the Bulldogs case, they can pressure their opp and limit their forward thrusts...and this is shown in the Bulldogs scoring. They average 134.4 ppg in their 5 wins, but scored just 55 and 78 in the two losses. At Sydney last year they scored just 76 points...they lost that game by just 13 points, but you'd have to say that Sydney's attack has been much more potent this season having at least 27 shots at goal in their last 4 games. Tough game for the Dogs after traveling 2 weeks in a row, and I think the Swans will be too good for them here. mat, I assume you were being a bit tongue-in-cheek about Dawson = Michael!...but I do think you do have a valid point for this week... ...Melbourne certainly haven't got a big forward who can take the game apart. Crawford and Jacobs both named....(I've changed my mind on Melbourne if you haven't guessed by now! :D) I was actually at the game last year where the Hawks dominated from the first bounce and didn't ever let the D's in the hunt, and I think we'll see some more of that slow, chipping style of play again...esp. since it will be difficult for them to kick a big score. For that reason I'll be on the under I reckon (depending on the total obviously), so hopefully the Friday Night punters will be after an entertaining shoot-out ;)

[matjnewton]

Re: AFL - Round 8

mat, I assume you were being a bit tongue-in-cheek about Dawson = Michael!...

Hehe :lol

[-Loki-]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Hawthorn v Melbourne: Hawthorn are riddlled with a few injuries as they take on Melbourne tonight. But tonigh i see an uppsett on the cards, but a risky bet on Hawks it is. My main bet tonight is the Over. Last week against Brisbane, Hawthorn lacked the kicking game as a few to many behinds where accumulated, i expect that to change tonight. Demons are on fire with 4 game win streak and are a well structured team that can post up number easy. Good players like Davies and Yze, Robertson should light the board up. Hawthorn +19.5 2u Over 5u

[Ashtee]

Re: AFL - Round 8 You'd expext Hawks should be harder at it tonight Loki. Good luck. Over, how many points?

[matjnewton]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Bad luck Loki. Hawks sucked tonight. Mat.

[robby]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Now I'm speaking as a Tigers fan, and not as a punter. Also note, I haven't spent a dime this week (too much fun in tennis) in AFL. The Tigers winning has to be the upset of the year so far, and may well truely be the upset of the year all up. That was massive. (and I wish I had more loyalty, but I predicted the Crows winning by 130 :D)

[Ashtee]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Amazingly Tigers still 4.00 at half time even though the writing was on the wall :D Possibly they will win the flag this year robby :unsure :lol

[robby]

Re: AFL - Round 8 :rollin I seen it on the delay, so I didn't pay attention to it live. Though, they did the same thing to West Coast and still lost by a sizeable margin. 4.00 on paper wouldn't have represented value, live it may have though. Lots of money would have been lost on that one - Crows as a banker. I would have ran with it too, and I tend to play on dogs more than bankers. well, if they can take one out the next two, I do fancy them as an outside chance for the 8. Early days yet, but the ones sitting on the top 8 fence don't look all that great. I'd fancy it even more if we'd have a healthy (and active) brown in rd 15. Lots of young kids though, I think I overheard the announcer say that all of our draftees from this draft are already playing. Good in a way by the way they performed today, bad if there is another 'richo' situation in the mix. I still think he's better served as a CHF than the FF. Too high of a work rate, better at marking on the lead, pretty good tempo control. His size tends to create mismatches when he plays there as well. He's no Brown, but if you compare his good days to his bad ones, it's when he wasn't playing FF. (though he may have started there) Glad I didn't run plays this weekend, thought the Roos had a chance. I hate backing Freo as a fav, but don't mind them as a dog. I would have faded Collingwood, and ran with the Crows. Some easier matches tomorrow though, good considering the wife will be beating me in my work's tipping comp this week :loon.

[TazaD]

Re: AFL - Round 8

Now I'm speaking as a Tigers fan' date=' and not as a punter. Also note, I haven't spent a dime this week (too much fun in tennis) in AFL. The Tigers winning has to be the upset of the year so far, and may well truely be the upset of the year all up. That was massive. (and I wish I had more loyalty, but I predicted the Crows winning by 130 :D)[/quote'] The death of football. I'm speaking as a football fan.....and I repeat, the death of the game as we once knew it. You just wait for the "Wallace is a genius!" all week in the press...what a ****ing crock... ...ANY team, in ANY game could kick 3-4 goals and then play keepings off for the next 100 minutes, but no-one has been that rediculous. The last 10 minutes of the second quarter was THE biggest disgrace in AFL history....3 players kicking it to each other to run it out to HT. Of course, Richmond won, but it meant NOTHING. There is not one positive to take out of that game. Unless you (and 15 other teams!) can somehow maintain the patience to play that kind of game style (virtually impossible), the top 8 is still a very, very long way off mate. (Don't get me wrong here...not bitter about losing a bet, 'cause I half expected a slow, crappy game plan, but as for football, I couldn't watch. Total and utter rubbish.) As for Freo..damn!!...Same amount of shots and lose by 35??!! :wall :wall Tough beat that one. :(

[Ashtee]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Glad to see you pull one back with Swans Taza. Mind you, if there's one you prob would have chosen to drop ... Watching the Poofy Tats tonight was a whole heap of fun also. :eek

[robby]

Re: AFL - Round 8

The death of football. I'm speaking as a football fan.....and I repeat, the death of the game as we once knew it. You just wait for the "Wallace is a genius!" all week in the press...what a ****ing crock... ...ANY team, in ANY game could kick 3-4 goals and then play keepings off for the next 100 minutes, but no-one has been that rediculous. The last 10 minutes of the second quarter was THE biggest disgrace in AFL history....3 players kicking it to each other to run it out to HT. Of course, Richmond won, but it meant NOTHING. There is not one positive to take out of that game. Unless you (and 15 other teams!) can somehow maintain the patience to play that kind of game style (virtually impossible), the top 8 is still a very, very long way off mate. (Don't get me wrong here...not bitter about losing a bet, 'cause I half expected a slow, crappy game plan, but as for football, I couldn't watch. Total and utter rubbish.) As for Freo..damn!!...Same amount of shots and lose by 35??!! :wall :wall Tough beat that one. :(

Ok, granted I've only known and watched AFL for four years. (Born and raised in the states) so I'm not talking through history. Also note that there isn't any negative tone on my side, just up for discussion. Every other week someone is talking about something on the field is the "death of football". Now usually it's over aggressive possession, obviously what we're talking about here. Now when you look at this game before it was played you seen two different classes of talent. Richmond is young, the Crows have a decent blend of young and old - and most are in their prime. The Tigers have scraped through the season on all of its wins, have losses averaging 72.5 points. The Tigers have serious injury concerns, some in defence. The Crows dominate both sides of the field and the forward half tackles very well. And on, and on.. If you were Wallace, what would you do differently to even have a chance? Seriously. I'm just trying to be realistic. This was the only way the Tigers had a chance and it happened to work. It may not be the prettiest style of the game, but the Crows had no answers to it. Bowden and Pettifer ran the majority of the game free. Now is Wallace a genius in my eyes? No. Did he do what he needed to do? Yes. Now it's obvious about tempo. In AFL the tempo is controlled by uncontested marks. Now when tempo tatics are used in other sports, the 'death of the sport' reaction doesn't come out. An intentional walk in baseball to remove a scoring threat. Walking the ball to the other half of the court instead of a 2 pass shift. Taking an early pitstop as a second place driver instead of keeping the chase on 1st in a race. A boxer switching to a guarded position, another example. Are any of those situations entertaining? No. Are they considered best practice? When needed, yeah. Are they the death to the sport? No. Now, when you watch the game, it looks awful. Comparing it to the 'wood v eagles game wouldn't give West Coast any justice at all. To that I'll agree all day long. However, if we take the time of possession out of the equation, the stats really aren't that out of spec compared to the other game you mentioned. The Crows had more scoring shots, but failed to convert. The disposals per goal was quite close between the two, though the disposal per scoring shot was larger, the freo/roo game was right up there with them. Is it the difference in marks between the two games? Then Collingwood/Geelong have something to answer for since the difference in marks was just about the same as the Crow/Tiger game. Of course that whole last paragraph is meaningless, but it proves a point. Stats don't mean anything in the end, the perception/experience of the game does. While not as extreme it's not the first time this year that someone has used the possession game to go for a win. (Though, it's probably fair to say that no one needed to go that extreme due to class difference). And the game didn't end because Sydney did a similar thing 3/4 of the year last year. Speaking of Sydney - last year in round 14 when Richmond played them, a similar thing happened. Except both teams used that same tatic. The disposals per scoring shot a lot closer, but the margin on disposals per goal was a lot further out. 40 disposals more then compared to 50ish today, it was in all respects very similar to this game. Richmond had just lost 4 on the trot while Sydney were coming in off 3 impressive wins. It was a wise (not genius) move then too. Ended up scraping home by a point. As for the top 8, my point on it was if we look at what last year needed to get into the 8 was 46 points. If they were to get a win out of the next two games (cats, freo) they'd be on 20 points with 12 rounds to go. And those two teams will probably be in the bottom 8 mix as well. Then they'd be an outside chance. % hurts them badly though. Again, not having a go at you, or defending the Tigers because they happened to be the team in question, just the term. If the Crows had an answer for it (or even shot straighter) we wouldn't even be talking about it. Yeah, that's long winded.. sorry:\

[matjnewton]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Is it me or has the whole 'game is gonna die cos of flooding/keepings off' started a bit later this year? I think it may be because we had an entree of 'game is gonna die cos of the interchange rules' which pushed it out a little. Mat.

[TazaD]

Re: AFL - Round 8

Is it me or has the whole 'game is gonna die cos of flooding/keepings off' started a bit later this year? I think it may be because we had an entree of 'game is gonna die cos of the interchange rules' which pushed it out a little. Mat.

I've actually been a big 'supporter' of the modern game Mat...tactically it's great to watch, the inside vision and skills of payers now is better than ever before... ...but the game last night had none of the above. Nothing. As I said, I'm sure a hundred coaches in the past have thought of doing the same thing against vastly superior teams...yet they've all put the game first before their own records I guess as much as anything. It wasn't flooding, it wasn't even 'over-possessing'...for 10 minutes it was 3 blokes kicking it to each other like they were in a backyard!! What annoys me the most about it is that it's an utterly pointless win. Richmond will say any win is a good win, but in this case I have to disagree. They will not make the finals (sorry robby, not taking shots at you here, I promise! ;) )...I'd venture to say that 50% of Richmond supporters who saw the game would have been as bored and frustrated with it as me...and what does it tell the players?...Do they now honestly think they are a good team because they beat the flag favs in that way? Of course not...It sends the message that we are shit and need to practically hijak the game to be competative. An intentional walk in baseball to remove a scoring threat. Walking the ball to the other half of the court instead of a 2 pass shift. Taking an early pitstop as a second place driver instead of keeping the chase on 1st in a race. A boxer switching to a guarded position, another example. I hear what you are saying robby, but there are limits to all those examples...you can walk one man...2 men...3 men...but if you keep intentionally throwing wide balls the other team scores. You can walk the ball up the court, but you only have 10 seconds to do so, and 24 to shoot it. A boxer can guard all day, but he won't win the fight. (Unless he is Homer ;)) The point in football is that there are no limitations...it's always been on the players and coaches to 'play the game'. Is that unprofessional? Maybe so. But Richmond this season have firstly sat in their own goal square and rushed points to waste 3-4 minutes (v. Brisbane), and now this. In my mind there has to be a limit to where you go, how far you stretch the rules to win a game...there has to be some kind of spirit. I totally understad that winning is the be all and end all for a coach and team (and I don't want to sound like some peace loving, share the love hippy! :lol ), but again, I question what this win actually does to a teams confidence. I suggest it will do more harm than good.

[Ashtee]

Re: AFL - Round 8 I'm yet to sit down and watch the game (this should be fun, maybe I should walk around while watching it? :lol) but I like that Wallace uses tactics like this when needed. Any sport that incorporates tactical play make it more enjoyable to me and I think the onus is on the broadcasters to promote it in a light that makes it interesting to the viewer. That is, explain what is going on (Dermott Brereton :clap). Thrty-five years ago Cricket was considered a boring game. Two cameras only. Norman May (who knew nothing about the game) calling it, no replays or meaningful explanations between balls ... The thing is, no team is going to make the eight by taking negative play to this degree, as Wallace knows I believe. If you build it too much into your game plan it'll just end up impacting on a positive mentality needed to succeed, I believe. I play 8-ball Pool. We don't see much on TV here (maybe more shown in UK) but I remember watching some from a UK tournament. What they do is make the pockets bigger so it promotes potting (this is meant to entertain the TV viewers more :eek). I watched five frames and there was only a total oy six table visits between the two players (break - pot out ... ) and it was a total bore :zzz. When you play, a hard tactical battle is great. Played a game the other night where my opponet kept snookering me (some of it was brilliant) and I just kept trying to make it hard as possible for him to benifit. Now you play like that when you have to but if it's your usual game you'll just become a loser. An attacking attitude is the key to success, as it it is with all sports I believe.

[TazaD]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Yeah, agree with nearly all of that Ashtee. I remember a Brisbane v. Kangaroo's game 2-3 years ago, that was like 150-140...it was ruck tap, to rover, to FF...goal...Boring as hell! ** But I think you'll find this game to be way to far to the extreme other way. ** Actually, on that point, I've been saying the smae thing for a couple of years about NFL (and AFL)...for some reason administrators feel that scoring = excitement...which = more viewers. I've said all along I (personally of course) are just as 'excited' by a tough, tight, physical, defensive contest... ...in NFL especially, I'd rather see a good tactical 14-10 game than a 40-30 game with pass interference calls every second play. btw, it's good that someone else like Dermott commentating!! Most people I know don't like him, but I reckon it's funny when him and (usually) Dennis Commetti go off on some tangent when the game bogs down. Oh, and I'm not sure how in the world the broadcasters would promote yesterday's game!!...Honestly, I will be interested what you think when you see it... ...that was the other thing that 'ammused' me (well, bemused really)...that during the week Richmond put a very well received proposal to the AFL about club revenues etc. then come out and play THE most boring game that the AFL has ever seen. I can't speak for Tiger fans, but I suspect a decent % of them would have been as bored as me, and seeing your team win live is one thing, but sitting through the game yesterday wouldn't encourage too many 'fringe' supporters back I wouldn't think.

[robby]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Now these comments I find myself on the whole agreeing. Just had issues with the 'death of football'.

... As I said, I'm sure a hundred coaches in the past have thought of doing the same thing against vastly superior teams...yet they've all put the game first before their own records I guess as much as anything. It wasn't flooding, it wasn't even 'over-possessing'...for 10 minutes it was 3 blokes kicking it to each other like they were in a backyard!!

And yet, the Crows let it happen. Bowden sat open and uncontested about half of the game. There was no pressure to force any hardball gets, no push back for contested marks. In the end the Crows were content for it to go down. The thing that gets me is that the Crows still had every chance of winning it, they watched that play for 120 minutes. Yet, they still didn't have an answer for it.

What annoys me the most about it is that it's an utterly pointless win. Richmond will say any win is a good win, but in this case I have to disagree. They will not make the finals (sorry robby, not taking shots at you here, I promise! )...I'd venture to say that 50% of Richmond supporters who saw the game would have been as bored and frustrated with it as me...and what does it tell the players?...Do they now honestly think they are a good team because they beat the flag favs in that way? Of course not...It sends the message that we are shit and need to practically hijak the game to be competative.

I don't think it's a good win, but I don't think its pointless either. If I were Wallace, I would be like the cats and just forget about this round. While I obviously have no idea on how the team thinks about itself, I could assume on the meeting that will happen Monday morning. Relief. They have to know that they aren't exactly contending for anything directly. They'll also be aware that they are way behind 8 of the clubs in presence. They couldn't have won it in any other fashion. That point I'll agree on any day of the week. To be fair to Wallace, he's been up against some solid teams this year and hasn't played the negative game card to date. Kilda, Coast and Sydney all would have been targets for the same game plan and he didn't go that route. So while it was a boring game, it's obviously not the team strategy for the year.

I hear what you are saying robby, but there are limits to all those examples...you can walk one man...2 men...3 men...but if you keep intentionally throwing wide balls the other team scores. You can walk the ball up the court, but you only have 10 seconds to do so, and 24 to shoot it. A boxer can guard all day, but he won't win the fight. (Unless he is Homer ) The point in football is that there are no limitations...it's always been on the players and coaches to 'play the game'. Is that unprofessional? Maybe so. But Richmond this season have firstly sat in their own goal square and rushed points to waste 3-4 minutes (v. Brisbane), and now this. In my mind there has to be a limit to where you go, how far you stretch the rules to win a game...there has to be some kind of spirit.

I actually highly agree with the call there (rushed behinds). They just got done getting three reasonable beltings, traveled to West Coast, came back from behind to lead against the Lions. If I recall correctly, they didn't have a runner on the defensive end those few minutes. So either Wallace told them at 3 quarter time, or (and most likely) the players were spent and played the game as they saw it. Would I want it for an entire quarter? No. But there is a time and a place and that was a reasonable one. I would rather see the players thinking out of the box than giving the game away doing something foolish. I was a lot more disappointed with the display in the dons/tigers game than either of these games - by both teams. And to stress a point, they didn't stretch anything. They didn't play the game as it was intended, but it was well within the rules. More on that later.

[TazaD]

Re: AFL - Round 8

Now these comments I find myself on the whole agreeing. Just had issues with the 'death of football'.

Mate, you've got to allow me some kind of poetic licence! :rollin (Sorry, I do realise I went a bit over-board!) And yet, the Crows let it happen. Bowden sat open and uncontested about half of the game. There was no pressure to force any hardball gets, no push back for contested marks. In the end the Crows were content for it to go down. The thing that gets me is that the Crows still had every chance of winning it, they watched that play for 120 minutes. Yet, they still didn't have an answer for it. Yeah, not sure about that tho...I mean, the reason they got so close in the last was because they put some pressure on in the last... I mean, yeah, they did allow it to happen for a while, but then 2 things I guess...1) It is actually quite tough to stop your direct opponent getting the ball if you are 1-1 all over the ground...That's why we have zones from kick-in's (and other sports obviously!) in the first place...and 2) A bit of complacency is very tough to turn around mid-game (As Ashtee's bank account would suggest by the sound! :clap ) They didn't play the game as it was intended, but it was well within the rules. No argument there mate. It certainly was.

[Ashtee]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Bloody hell!!! I backed Carlton last night as well (only wearing Geelong jumpers). :puke Don't want to be seen as an after eventer but some of the value you can get at breaks is excellent (even considering book % is usually up). Bris were 2.55 at the jump yet at 1/4-time they still gave 2.45. We get a quater to guage team intensity, Bris led and looked to be travelling slightly the better atop some doubts expressed here regards Port's quality. Home advantage but surely Bris were no worse than about evens from there.

[matjnewton]

Re: AFL - Round 8 Yeh I was pretty confident in my call on the Saints game. Saw some guy in the MX pointing out that Saints >62(ish) I think was 5.25. Juicy odds there given our average winning margin over the Blues for the past 7 matches. Mat.

[TazaD]

Re: AFL - Round 8 http://afl.com.au/default.asp?pg=news&spg=display&articleid=267411 I have a friend! "I want to build a team to win a premiership. You play that basketball crap all of the time - that's why I don't play basketball, OK," Sheedy said.

Sheeds on the attack 7:49:23 PM Sun 21 May, 2006 Matt Burgan Sportal for afl.com.au Essendon coach Kevin Sheedy has taken a swipe at the tactics used by Richmond to achieve its win against Adelaide at Telstra Dome on Saturday, adding that he did not entertain the idea of attempting to secure a victory in a similar style when playing West Coast on Sunday at the same venue. The Tigers players retained possession of the ball for as long as they could against the Crows to graft out the four points - and in the process achieve an upset victory this round - yet the win has become a talking point for its 'keepings off' and 'chip n kick' style of play. But Sheedy said after his side went down to West Coast by 21 points - after the Bombers led by 10 points at three quarter-time and looked set for a surprise win - that he would not have implemented the same tactics used by Richmond to record a victory. And when posed the notion that he was cheating his supporters from a victory, Sheedy was adamant in response. "I want to build a team to win a premiership. You play that basketball crap all of the time - that's why I don't play basketball, OK," Sheedy said. [url="http://ad2.pamedia.com.au/event.ng/Type=click&FlightID=42859&AdID=59514&TargetID=19158&Values=31,51,60,72,81,91,100,110,150,196,250,256,535,611,671,772,971,1315,2229,2236,2290,2584,4533,4696,4699,4701,4702,4705,5099,5225,5481,5501,5672,5681,5734,5737,5854,7756,9732,10607,10883,14849,14850,16855,18237,18389,18816,19088,19623&RawValues=&Redirect=http://ad.sensismediasmart.com.au/images/redir/dfaredir.html?http://www.sensis.com.au] "You're kidding? This is a game of footy and the way we played today will still get bums on seats and the people and fans will still come and see the next best kids playing the most exciting footy and when we actually want to do that at some stage in the future, we may, but that's just the way I am as a coach." Asked if Richmond coach Terry Wallace was doing the wrong thing by implementing the tactics, Sheedy said: "I don't coach Richmond. Terry can do what he wants to do. You look at Terry and you look at me and we're very different people - I hope," Sheedy said. "It's none of my business. If he wants to play a game of billiards up the back here, well, good luck to him, OK, but it's nothing to do with me, but you'll win four points, OK, but you might never go anywhere." EDIT: Ad removed! haha. Sorry about that!

[matjnewton]

Re: AFL - Round 8 It even copied the ad!! Impressive Mat.