^Newbie^ Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I believe everybody would face this kind of situations some point in time during the tourneys especially in freerolls . Its like this , you know you are short stacked . u've just seen a bugger with huge stacks who went all-in with J6 off-suit in the last hand and lost . Next hand , you collected A3 suited and this bugger went all in again ? Should you call him ? IN short , main point is should you call someone on his all-in if he's consistently bluffing and you got a little bit of decent look on your hole cards ? Hope the pros can give some insight . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie-p Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? in a freeroll.....YES QUICKLY. you will probably be a very slight favourite ...take as many of these 50/50's early in a freeroll as possible...either you go out and save yourself some of your precious time(not a bad thing in a freeroll imo) or you build a stack necessary to give yourself any chance in a freeroll. gl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danno375 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? A3? Hmmmm I am loathed to call a low ace as I always seem to find an opponent with a bigger one ( card that is) Even if it is a mid ace like A 8 i either get busted by a 9 or A 6 with a 6 on the board. I am no expert but I have become tighter and tighter recently. To the point where it feels as if I am going to be blinded out without seeing a hand. The benefit is that when you make a move ( provided you have been on the same table with the same people for a while ) they will trust your move and assume you have something pretty. In answer to your question......My method would be trust to patience and think that there will be a much much better hand to call him on just around the corner. Besides.............. why not wait and let one of the others test him? They will be as frustrated at his antics as you are. My new motto is " patience is rewarded, reward patience by trusting it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danno375 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? BUT Stevie.......... you only have one card that you are relying on. An ace. Even if you land an ace then you are hoping no one else got one because the chances are he will have a higher one. That would mean you are hoping for a kind board to make a community second pair, a low straight , flush or small chance at a set. I would say that if you are going on a 50/50 then wait till it is likely that you may be able to win with a single pair. so two high cards....a k eg would mean that there is a good chance that your pair.....either of them... is a potential hand winner. A pair of threes aint going to cut the mustard often. Just my opinion danno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie-p Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? in normal mtt terms ...a/3s is junked as quiclky as a/js! however this is a freeroll im presuming the advice is being asked about. he is probably already many tens of thousands behind the chip leaders and has stated he is short stacked...also he has told us the all in merchant has shown down rags after all in. he needs to double up and a/3s is good enough for me in that situation. he may wait for a/k and have it easily beaten by 2/2. freerolls have to be played mega loosly and a/3 is probably the best hand here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danno375 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? ok...each to their own i have lost count of the times i have watched stack dwindle and waited for decent cards...then gone on to show a great result....i will trust to patience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? It really depends on what you know about your opponent, you stack size in relation to blinds, position, a bunch of things. But you have to be pretty desperate to be playing one high card - A3 is an absolute trash hand it should be made clear. You're only about 60/40 against the J6 you mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? As others have said, you're only a small favourite with A3s against a random hand, and if you call his all-in then you only have one way to win. If you're short-stacked in the later stages of a tournament (so the blinds are large enough to be worth winning) then you're much better off going all-in yourself than calling somebody else. Then you have two ways to win: the other players folding or legitimately winning the hand if somebody calls you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danno375 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? thanks slap and guess.... i was wondering if i was wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? I have a theory, that I have yet to try, purely because I'm chicken. And that is when you're short-stacked and at the stage where its dble through or out, whether it would be better to go with mid-range/gapped connectors such as the following; 7 8 - 8 9 - 9 10 - 10 J or 8 10 - 9 -J etc. Purely because mid range cards like this could get a piece of painted or raggy flops. In fact I'm in the Safety Net and will try it whenever I have 3xBB or less. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? ok...each to their own i have lost count of the times i have watched stack dwindle and waited for decent cards...then gone on to show a great result....i will trust to patience Oh dear. I agree with that strategy Danno, whether its a freeroll, MTT or an STT. Funnily enough I'm having trouble coming to terms with the fact that my best showings seem to be in PL heavy tourneys. I think the embarassment factor plays a big part in helping me stay patient. I just need to take this to 'non-PL' events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? Val - I think when it comes to pre-flop all ins it's getting to the area of poker that isn't about opinion at all, it just comes down to maths because there's no subsequent play involved. You can take any given hand and give it a win percentage against any other given hand. If you're playing in a multi way pot hands like medium suited connectors do go up in value, because you have all the regular straightening/flushing cards, but also the addition of the likelihood that your own cards are live, since all-in hands tend to be congregated around the top of the deck. JT suited is probably the single best hand in a 4+ way all in type pot, because your opponents pairing cards are your straightening cards. That's not to say it's favourite, just that it has the most +EV. But medium suited connectors are horrible cards heads up or 3 way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? Thanks guess. ;) I didn't have a chance to make a last stand tonight, but I'll bear that in mind. It just seemed...sort of logical when it occurred to me. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? well, Im no pro... but have won a little... and seem to have an opinion about everything these days :D In a freeroll, I would call at once with A3 suited... after seeing him with J6. In a buy in turney I would be more reluctant... Like Danno says, patience and tightness bring you a long way. ...today I won a multiturney, was down to 400 chips at one point and patience (and a little bit of luck) helped me to win it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie-p Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? nice one on the multi win ....always a top buzz:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
^Newbie^ Posted February 12, 2006 Author Share Posted February 12, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? thanks for the comments there . Much appreciated . I hate to play against those type of players cause when he really has a real big hand , i would say i'm a goner . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? nice one on the multi win ....always a top buzz:) Thx Stevie... that was a nice 1 :nana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? Just my thoughts on short stack play A3 suited - only if you are first in the pot, or are on the SB/BB to a raiser and no other callers - otherwise junk it, why coin flip with a massive stack just because he is loose - if you call it may encourage others to call behind you as the pot odds get bigger, and they will prolly have you A3 dominated You have so much more of a chance if you are first in. Re middle connectors - same rule applies- don't bother if you are on the button to a raise & call etc - you only want to play these cards heads up when on the short stack, not in a multi way pot as you will need to hit to have a chance. If you are first in, then maybe shove and put the pessure on others. But the trick is the 10XBB rule - if you get under that, then you should be shoving much sooner, don't wait for 'good' cards to arrive and get blinded away - if you pick up 10 4 off on the button with 6-8 BB or so and its folded to you then SHOVE - don't even think about it, just do it (unless of course the SB/BB are really short stacked or really large stacked as they willl prolly call - u need stacks that are 'comfortable' but ones that if they call and lose become short'ish). as harrington says - 1st in vigourish :) Short stack play is tough and picking your spots even more so - it comes with practice and play and table reading Good luck :) Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? In fact I'm in the Safety Net and will try it whenever I have 3xBB or less. ;) I agree with Damo. When you're down to 3xBB it's getting too late. There's a big advantage to being first into the pot, but you need to have enough to bet that the other players will think twice about calling you. Of course it depends on other factors, but it's not too much of an exaggeration to say that when I have about 6xBB I'll go all-in with any hand so long as nobody else has bet. It's amazing how often you win the blinds like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? Re middle connectors - same rule applies- don't bother if you are on the button to a raise & call etc - you only want to play these cards heads up when on the short stack, not in a multi way pot as you will need to hit to have a chance. If you are first in, then maybe shove and put the pessure on others. Damo Agree with everything else you wrote, but I think this is wrong. Middle connectors are horrible cards heads up, they don't beat a random deal (which is jack high). The only circumstance under which you should be playing middle connectors heads up as a shortstack is to buy pots with position, and if that's the only reason to be playing a hand, you might as well be playing 72x Middle connectors actually go UP in value in multi-way pots, because the chances are greater that your cards are live and unique, and they can form lock hands more readily when they hit. Generally you have positive expectation with medium suited connectors in a 4+ way pot. Whether you should take that +EV is another matter, in a tournament as a shortstack, probably not since you're still a significant underdog. But medium connectors go up in value as the number of players in a pot increases, not the other way around, and they're a trash hand heads up (unless you and your opponent both have a huge stack and can make some argument about implied odds) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? HI GW I mean in relation to them being the short stack so u have 7BB left and have 10 9 on the button - two limpers in front of you - would you call? I wouldn't because you are prolly not going to hit ur hand, and even if you do you will probably get out kicked (i.e. limper no1 has K10) and if you raise AI I would expect at least on caller and 10 9 isin't that good to shove after people have already called - there is massive value in the pot now, whereas an UTG shove does not have as much value (but you know that anyway - others might not etc) However if you have 20+ BB then limping with these cards is a good idea, coz when you really hit ur hand you will get paid off Does that clarify my post? Cheers Damo :cheers Agree with everything else you wrote, but I think this is wrong. Middle connectors are horrible cards heads up, they don't beat a random deal (which is jack high). The only circumstance under which you should be playing middle connectors heads up as a shortstack is to buy pots with position, and if that's the only reason to be playing a hand, you might as well be playing 72x Middle connectors actually go UP in value in multi-way pots, because the chances are greater that your cards are live and unique, and they can form lock hands more readily when they hit. Generally you have positive expectation with medium suited connectors in a 4+ way pot. Whether you should take that +EV is another matter, in a tournament as a shortstack, probably not since you're still a significant underdog. But medium connectors go up in value as the number of players in a pot increases, not the other way around, and they're a trash hand heads up (unless you and your opponent both have a huge stack and can make some argument about implied odds) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? I probably wouldn't call no, but I'd be more likely to call than if there was just 1 limper. I wouldn't play that hand as a shortstack heads up or even 3 way, unless it was for the purposes of making a move - and if that was my reason for being in the pot my cards would be a minor consideration whatever they were. If you're just playing position as a shortstack then that's a reasonable strategy, but if you're doing so with medium connectors in a short pot then you're not really playing your cards. If you're going to play medium connectors on the strength of your hand, you need to be getting odds from somewhere, either pot or implied. As a shortstack your implied odds are diminished so you need good pot odds (ie a lot of people in the pot). Especially in tournament play, since you won't necessarily take +EV unless it's quite significant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherry009 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? playing in multi yesterday there was one guy who was callin every raise i raise preflop 4x bb holding qq this guy calls my raise which is what i wanted holding the ladys flop comes j 7 5 i checked he bets 800 so i reraise him all in which he calls in a flash hes holdin 10 7 off suit turn comes a 7 if i could see him id av broken his hands with an hammer!! all i can say is some of the players on line need the brains checkin out cause they must be loseing alot of money. the fools cant have an hand every time its imposible so wait for the moment and eat him!!:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danno375 Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Re: Should you call or not ? there are tonnes of them sherry...not a brain cell between them. eg......( here comes another muppet tale of woe. i hold aa with ok stack. raising every hand the muppet raises blind from 50 to 200. i put him all in.....he calls with j 10 offsuit and lands a flush on the river. every day you have one of them. good news.... rest of the table abused him till the end! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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