How should I have played this?

[stonecoldnuts]

OK. This is bad play from me. I had plenty of chips and wasted them all on this hand. What was the ideal play here? I'm thinking a smaller bet from me, then a fold when rundup raises me. Any comments appreciated I'm xtemplex

- acesnever sitting in seat 1 with $3275.00 - om_optical sitting in seat 2 with $1645.00 - Jamesp362000 sitting in seat 4 with $1450.00 - rundup sitting in seat 5 with $6730.00 - sedghi sitting in seat 6 with $2325.00 - gonagetya100 sitting in seat 8 with $2285.00 [Dealer] - Kezzy42 sitting in seat 9 with $2190.00 - xtemplex sitting in seat 10 with $3690.00 Kezzy42 posted the small blind - $75.00 xtemplex posted the big blind - $150.00 ** Dealing card to xtemplex: Queen of Clubs, Queen of Hearts acesnever called - $150.00 om_optical folded Jamesp362000 folded rundup raised - $900.00 sedghi folded gonagetya100 folded Kezzy42 called - $900.00 xtemplex called - $900.00 acesnever folded ** Dealing the flop: 7 of Spades, 4 of Clubs, 5 of Hearts Kezzy42 checked xtemplex bet - $1200.00 rundup went all-in - $5830.00 Kezzy42 folded xtemplex went all-in - $1740.00 rundup shows: Ace of Spades, Ace of Clubs :sad ** Dealing the turn: 10 of Spades ** Dealing the river: 9 of Clubs rundup wins $8730.00 from the main pot

[legendkiller]

Re: How should I have played this? the only real comment i can offer is the obvious - dont go all in. Any smaller bet post flop wouldnt have helped either - he may have even flat called a small bet to get paid more on the turn and river. So the 1200 bet was about right, and he told you the answer you had asked - you just didnt listen to him and called. If you had folded you still had 1700 or so chips to play with which was still adequate.

[Ell Ess Dee]

Re: How should I have played this? Probably not best person to give advice but agree with legend.. He put a nice raise pre-flop and that would have had me worried from there but i would of definitely called.. Flop would of meant nothing to me and I would of probably just flat called it from there just to see where i stood (but has legend said, he might have done the same). I would of definitely folded his all-in re-raise though even if i was holding K K, but that's my style of play - 1700 chips gave you another 11 hands to play with..

[GaF]

Re: How should I have played this? Personally, I'd never have got away from it, and would have ended up all in pre-flop. QQ is a premium hand that I always look to raise and reraise - if someone has A's, then I'm in trouble, but I always play QQ aggressively (and more aggressively than AA because I want less action. With that flop, I couldn't have got away from it........

[brael]

Re: How should I have played this? I'd go with legend on this 1 too. Your initial bet was right but his all-in should have set alarm bells ringing. Even if he had been bluffing it's still too big a call to make as your hand hasn't developed on the flop. I've been pulled into the same situation with QQ a couple of times recently and have only just learned to get the fcuk out when a big bet goes in post flop!! :ok Remember too that laying down a premium hand is difficult but sometimes it can be the difference between survival and going out. I'll get me strait jacket... :loon

[The Quiet Man]

Re: How should I have played this? I'm with GAF on this one for a change - all in pre flop or fold after the raise. Of course you're still in the game if you do the right choice - I'd be out!! :dude Very tough one to put down!! :loon

[legendkiller]

Re: How should I have played this? You're right GaF, in reality all my chips would have been in the middle, but we have to try and learn from these experiences dont we. Perhaps next time either of us are in this situation we might think twice about calling the all in. And they will show Jacks or something.

[legendkiller]

Re: How should I have played this? this is almost a sensible poker thread!

[brael]

Re: How should I have played this?

And they will show Jacks or something.

or 72o leaving us to watch in horror as they flop a full house, 2's full of 7's... :spank ach... that could happen with AA too... you could analyse it to death and still not call it perfectly... that, unfortunately, is what the game's all about!

[GaF]

Re: How should I have played this?

And they will show Jacks or something.

That's key for me - at a higher level than I play it may be different - but in freerolls and "cheap" games - someone betting aggressively is more likely to have JJ, TT or AK, even AQ and the like as they are to have AA or KK - I will never lay down QQ pre flop, and I'm happy to play it that way......

[stonecoldnuts]

Re: How should I have played this? Cheers for the useful replies guys. I think next time I'll lay it down because it was a $20 buy in. But you are spot on GAF, if that was a freeroll it would probably be best (in the long run) to go all in (because they could have 10's, JJ or KK, AA.... ie. same probability but I've got lots of chips invested) (+ also they may have AK, which would tip the odds in my favour for the all-in, but this is probably balanced out by the fact they may have hit trips). Make sense-ish?? OK. I payed $20 for a poker lesson...thats the way I try and look at it ;)

[runadrum]

Re: How should I have played this? For what my opinion is worth I'd have been all in too. And I would then have reminded myself that this is online poker and if I've been dealt any picture pair there is likely to be AA out there somewhere too. I go all in and if needs be hope for trips. In Maxim this afternoon I called an all-in raise with QQ and got busted on the river by a Q high flush ! :(

[Boof Bonk Boosh]

Re: How should I have played this? QQ is definitely a pre-flop raise for me. I suppose that the fact that Rundup raised pre-flop suggests he doesn't have the cards required to hit the straight on the flop, but did you even consider this? An all in instead of a 1200 raise may have scared off Rundup, as he may have felt you had hit the straight. I think this is the one thing that could have made a difference (although I'm sure he'd have called anyway), but you were pretty much beaten from the start. I do hope I've read this right, because I've only just got up....

[guesswest]

Re: How should I have played this? I don't think you did anything wrong here. Strong aggressive play on a premium hand. His pre-flop raise more or less rules out him having hit the straight (which is very unlikely even without his raise). So you're just looking at 2 hands beating you. He'd very likely do that with any overpair, overcards with a flush draw etc. His raise makes AA/KK a little bit more likely, but still not very likely - I'd have done exactly the same. I don't like the pre-flop all in either, it's only callable with those two hands.

[GaF]

Re: How should I have played this?

I don't like the pre-flop all in either' date=' it's only callable with those two hands.[/quote'] Just to clarify - I wasn't advocating clicking the "all in" button pre flop - what I was saying was that I would have reraised pre flop - I presume the A's would have re reraised, I would have re re reraised - so would have ended up all in pre flop, but a little differnt from raising all in straight away pre flop.

[Valiant23]

Re: How should I have played this? I don't think there are too many players who could have laid down QQ in this situation stonecold. Maybe sat at a real table with unlimited(?) time in order for you to get cold feet and lay it down, but how long did you have to come to a decision? 20-30 seconds tops? Although there was the possibility of a straight I doubt very much that he would have raised 4x BB with an 8,6 or 3 even if they were suited, so you'll have him on a pocket pair. If thats the case then surely you must consider yourself in a strong position as there are only 2 hands stronger, and you were unlucky enough to run into 1 of them. Now I'm sure I'd found a site which shows the probability of starting hands vs. (ie the chances of AA being dealt in the same hand as QQ), but I handn't. All I did find was this probability list from wikipedia; The chances of being dealt AA, KK or QQ is 72.67 to 1. Now does this mean the chances of AA coming up against QQ is (72.67x72.67 to 1)? If so the odds are 5281 to 1 shot. Interestingly I put 66 v AA in my showdown calc with that flop and it the result was 37.9% to 60.5% in AA's favour (closer than I thought).

[guesswest]

Re: How should I have played this? 221-1 on being dealt AA (or any specific pocket pair). Slightly improved by discounting 2 queens. Your calculation is the chance of being dealt AA, KK or QQ twice in a row.

[GaF]

Re: How should I have played this?

Now does this mean the chances of AA coming up against QQ is (72.67x72.67 to 1)

No!!! The odds of getting dealt AA for one person is 221:1 (calculated as 4/52 * 3/51) Then you need to look at the chance of one of the 3 opponents still remaining in the hand have AA - you know 5 don't - because they've folded!!! Each individual has a 221:1 chance - um......I'll do some thinking and get back to you ...... of course this is ignoring the bets that have been made. The person making the bet has bet 6x BB Preflop - I tend to bet 3x BB with AA and KK and 5x BB with QQ, JJ and TT - because I want action with AA and KK that I don't want with the other hands. His bet of 6x BB suggests he doesn't want action and so doesn't hold AA or KK!!!!!!! (To me anyway)

[Valiant23]

Re: How should I have played this? :$ :$ :$ *Memo to self*. WAKE UP BEFORE POSTING! :wall :wall So sorry.

[GaF]

Re: How should I have played this?

The odds of getting dealt AA for one person is 221:1 (calculated as 4/52 * 3/51)

As Guesswest correctly says - given that you know that you have QQ, the odds of one individual having AA is 4/50 * 3/49 = 0.49% (or 204:1)

Each individual has a 221:1 chance - um......I'll do some thinking and get back to you ......

To calculate the chance of 3 individuals not having AA when you hold QQ (ignoring cards dealt to other players who have folded - slightly unrealistic!!), I **THINK** the maths is, (1-0.0049)^3 = 98.5% So the chance of at least one of the 3 players holding AA is: 100% - 98.5% = 1.5% (68:1)

[guesswest]

Re: How should I have played this?

Just to clarify - I wasn't advocating clicking the "all in" button pre flop - what I was saying was that I would have reraised pre flop - I presume the A's would have re reraised' date=' I would have re re reraised - so would have ended up all in pre flop, but a little differnt from raising all in straight away pre flop.[/quote'] Just saw this post. More I think about this one the more I think my initial reaction might be wrong. Maybe here he should reraise preflop then fold to another raise, unless he has info on his opponent. The 4th raise here says either AA, KK or a small possiblity of AK. I just can't see this play being made on jacks or worse outside of a freeroll. So the rereraise says you have a small chance at a coinflip and a majority chance at being dominated. If you knew it was the coinflip, it's obviously worth taking on pot odds, but since it's the less likely of the three the info is there to get away from the queens here, I think. Big fold to make though, I'd probably have done the same. Hopefully I'll now be able to get away from this one when it happens to me next time, thanks for sharing the hand stone :ok

[Pocket Lady]

Re: How should I have played this? I agree with Guesswest - I would have raised pre flop but folded with the re-raise. I think this is because of all the times I have been beaten with AA KK QQ.:(

[robilaruk]

Re: How should I have played this? I hope you are joking - can't fault you at all with this (well maybe a little :) ) villians range could be anything (unless you have a specific read), so a smooth call to see a 'no scary' A or K flop is ok - I say OK coz you are up against 2 players, so your QQ is not as good against multiple villians - if a K or A comes and you are prepared to lay down your QQ then fine, just call - if not, then take to problem away and shove PF (which is what I would do 99.9% of the time) You bet, he shoves - so what can he have? even if you think he has KK or AA you are correct to call - because of pot odds it costs you 1740 to win 8730 - you are getting a tad over 5:1 to call, and are a 4:1 dog (of course if he has a made hand (trips/str etc, you are in more trouble :sad ) he could be shoving with any overpair to the flop, AK etc, thinking you are making a move on a raggedy flop - and people do make moves, for all he knows (assuming he has AK) you have bet out with AQ hoping that he thinks you have the PP and will fold his AK..... there might be an arguement for folding, but don't listen to it as it is nonsense! :loon You have the third best hand in the game and got shafted by the best - it happens, but DON'T beat yourself up over this - you played it fine :clap :clap Cheers Damo

OK. This is bad play from me. I had plenty of chips and wasted them all on this hand. What was the ideal play here? I'm thinking a smaller bet from me, then a fold when rundup raises me. Any comments appreciated I'm xtemplex

[DC]

Re: How should I have played this? Sometimes you have to admit you were beaten by a better hand. I'd have done the same thing and found it extremely hard to fold my queens - and been knocked out. I would've told myself he can only really have had KK, AA or maybe AK. I'd be feeling a lot worse if he only held 77 ? .... DC

[robilaruk]

Re: How should I have played this? The thing is knowing that you are being beat by AA KK and still making the call - it is the correct play and in the long run will pay you off - the Hero is pot commited at this point - lets not forget that - yes you could fold, and be pushing with a pile of crap in another orbit or two - take you pot odds, make the call and hope he flips 10 10 :nana (It wouldn't surprise me to have seen 10 10 or AKs with the flush draw when they flipped the cards over (or even 44 with some shitty gutshot str draw LOL) re the 77 scenario - that why I would SHOVE PF - you are a 4:1 fav and you know he will call with his crap underpair hoping for a coinflip with you having AK etc :rollin just my thoughts Damo

Sometimes you have to admit you were beaten by a better hand. I'd have done the same thing and found it extremely hard to fold my queens - and been knocked out. I would've told myself he can only really have had KK, AA or maybe AK. I'd be feeling a lot worse if he only held 77 ? .... DC

[guesswest]

Re: How should I have played this? Robi - he is definitely pot committed at the point where he's presented with the post-flop reraise. I don't think anybody is suggesting he should fold here. What some people, like me, were suggesting is that he should have put in a reraise preflop, say double the bet. If he's reraised then, the 4th raise is only consistent with AA, KK or maybe possibly AK - in which case he has the info to fold and is not pot committed. Just as an aside, had he played the hand through to the flop bet as he did, although in this situation he does just have pot odds to call the queens for a set, it's not always correct to take pot odds in tournament play. In this situation, if he somehow magically knew he was facing aces, it's a question of whether he has a better chance of hitting the third queen vs recouping his chips through subsequent play in the micro situation of that tournament. A tournament situation is like having a self-contained bankroll, I wouldn't call my whole cash bankroll as a big underdog on pot odds on one single hand, I play a 20x max buy-in bankroll for ring games so I can absorb always taking pot odds - always taking long term +EV in tournament play is a recipe for disaster.

[robilaruk]

Re: How should I have played this? I am going to disagree here - after the AI shove on the flop, even knowing the villian has AA or KK given your pot odds you must still call - because you are prolly not going to see better cards or be in a better position for the rest of the tounry. The blinds are 150/300 (?) so the Hero has 4BB left or so - he will be shoving his chips in with a lot worse hand that QQ very soon, for worse odds againt LAG who will call with any old shite (8 3 coz they were soooooted etc :wall ). You must bite the bullet and play your QQ post flop - to do otherwise is mad:cow BSE styley! I do agree with your arguement re general tourney play - but the Hero will be woefully short stacked if he folds the flop push in this case - call, hope for villian to have 10 10:hope , or hit your Q - if not :cry then fire up another one! :eek :loon :cheers And how can taking +EV be a disaster? thats the whole point of +EV - get used to the short term variance, play a million billion hands and you will be ahead - if you don't play +EV situations then that is the disaster surely, you are giving up your edge?? are you a 2+2'er? might post it over there and see what they say? Cheers Damo

Robi - he is definitely pot committed at the point Just as an aside, had he played the hand through to the flop bet as he did, although in this situation he does just have pot odds to call the queens for a set, it's not always correct to take pot odds in tournament play. In this situation, if he somehow magically knew he was facing aces, it's a question of whether he has a better chance of hitting the third queen vs recouping his chips through subsequent play in the micro situation of that tournament. A tournament situation is like having a self-contained bankroll, I wouldn't call my whole cash bankroll as a big underdog on pot odds on one single hand, I play a 20x max buy-in bankroll for ring games so I can absorb always taking pot odds - always taking long term +EV in tournament play is a recipe for disaster.

[guesswest]

Re: How should I have played this?

I am going to disagree here - after the AI shove on the flop, even knowing the villian has AA or KK given your pot odds you must still call - because you are prolly not going to see better cards or be in a better position for the rest of the tounry. The blinds are 150/300 (?) so the Hero has 4BB left or so - he will be shoving his chips in with a lot worse hand that QQ very soon, for worse odds againt LAG who will call with any old shite (8 3 coz they were soooooted etc :wall ). You must bite the bullet and play your QQ post flop - to do otherwise is mad:cow BSE styley! I do agree with your arguement re general tourney play - but the Hero will be woefully short stacked if he folds the flop push in this case - call, hope for villian to have 10 10:hope , or hit your Q - if not :cry then fire up another one! :eek :loon :cheers And how can taking +EV be a disaster? thats the whole point of +EV - get used to the short term variance, play a million billion hands and you will be ahead - if you don't play +EV situations then that is the disaster surely, you are giving up your edge?? are you a 2+2'er? might post it over there and see what they say? Cheers Damo

Yep I am a 2+2er, though I mostly just post in the Philosophy forum. Don't get me wrong, I think he should have played this hand just due to the likelihood that he was ahead. I'm just saying that if he magically knew for sure he was up against AA he should lay this, although he has pot odds to call. On the issue of EV. It's always correct to take +EV in a cash game, because you're working on the basis that you're playing over infinity, which is what negates variance. Tournaments are different for a number of reasons. Tournament chips don't have a consistent value, their value diminishes over the course of a tournament as average stack size and blinds increase - which doesn't apply in a cash game. Also, in a cash game the ultimate goal is accumulation, in a tournament accumulation is just a means to an end, ie not getting eliminated. Mostly it's just that any given tournament is a microcosym. Variance only exists within that tournament, so you just can't play hands over infinity. You can say that you'll play many tournaments, but the hands in which you were a dog hitting value calls don't add to your stack in subsequent tournaments. If I was getting 12-1 on the pot with one card to come in a cash game I'd call my inside straight draw every day of the week. Because I can buy back in, and do it again, and the +EV will emerge. I wouldn't dream of calling the same hand in a tournament unless I had a massive chiplead, the risk to reward ratio just isn't favourable despite the +EV. That's why you don't play cash games outside of your bankroll, because you can't afford to call +EV bets as an underdog, just like in a tournament. I'm not saying pot odds and expectation aren't factors in tournament play, its a very useful skill to be able to calculate them and be aware of them, but it's frequently correct to turn down +EV opportunities in tournament play.