IS Ante-Post a scam?

[cmorgan]

I have been following horse racing for nearly a year. Analyzing horses/races and doing quite well since starting out. I am putting in the work and studying form etc for many hours. Best wins to date are £500 and £625. My ambition now is to hit the £1000 win. Fingers crossed. Anyway ... My question: I fell for a bookie trick this week or, as i would prefer to call it, a bookie scam. Recent race ( i won't name it or the horse or the bookie) had a horse tipped for 500/1. Wow - amazing odds. Imagine the payoff i thought should a miracle happen and the horse gets placed!! fantastic and too tempting to refuse. After looking at horse passed form i concluded it was a long shot but it just might work so i placed £20 E/W ante-post. Checked my balance via iphone racing post app linked to bookied. No change to balance. Oh well ... never mind. Checked racing post a few days later (i like to double check things) and the horse didn't even race. After live chat debate with the bookie they brushed it off with anti-post rules. But could you confirm why the horse didn't run? they advertised the bet. I (along with many other no doubt) was lurded by the potential returns and threw in good money. After the conversation with the bookie i concluded that this must be a scam. Horses in the field of upcoming race - massive odds - massive potential returns - dummies (like me) take the bait - who knows how much money they take - then 'oh, horse doesn't run!'(??) is this a simple scam or what? If the horse had at least turned up coughed, spluttered and fell at the first hurdle i would have accepted it and understood but not to run without any explaination when the bet has been advertised and my good money has been placed and accepted, something is wrong here? Oh, i get it! Bookies place massive odds, hook-in idiots like me, take loads of money and then they conviently arrange for the horse(s) not to run. No refund. Anti-post buddy!! Few quid to the trainer and owner perhaps? nudge-nudge, wink-wink! So if i was a bookie i could advertise anti-post odds of 10,000-1 make millions of money and 'arrange' for the horse not to turn up? Come on, please! Surely this must be wrong? The more experienced of you - your thoughts please? Many thanks, C.Morgan

[Aidymac]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? The whole purpose of an ante-post bet is that you are placing a bet with much better odds you will get on track on the day it runs but also knowing you have placed the bet knowing there is a chance the horse wont run, all of this is factored into the price! There is a reason that horse was 500/1 and one of the reasons was probably that the horse wont run in the race. Its not up to the bookmakers to tell you why the horse was withdrawn also, the owners can decide the night before the race that they are withdrawing the horse and they dont have to give an explanation! That is the risk you take. I backed Kauto Star at 8/1 Ante-post last week and after that a couple of runners were withdrawn, 11/1 was available at one stage so imagine you had put a bet on Kauto @ 11/1 and then the field is depleted to 6 or 7 runners, thats what i call value, Kauto went on to win @ 6/1.. I think Mileni would be the man best placed to answer your question, as he is an Ante-Post frequent bettor, but im my opinion there is no scam there and everything is factored into the price, i think you may be just a tad angry at losing your 40 quid, the joys of ante-post bud!

[Trotter]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? A post from the heart ! No, it's not a scam Bookies offer odds on future events ante-post. The punter can play or not. The deal is that generally you are getting much bigger odds because of the uncertainty as to the horse running or not. If it doesn't run you lose Bookies are taking bets ante-post now on next years Derby and will offer prices about any of a couple of hundred horses. But we all know that only 20 or so will run. If you know of an unexposed but brilliant horse who you think could win the Derby you can back it now at 100 to 1. If it comes out next year and wins the Dante or another Derby trial, it's odds will be slashed to 5/1. If it never runs again you've lost. That's the chance you take. Also i doubt that bookies would put much effort into trying to get a 500 to 1 shot not to turn up. They're far too busy making sure there's a non runner in 8 and 16 runner races. Personally i don't do ante-post...........there's plenty enough racing today without thinking about a race in 2 months time. And like you i like to study every horse in a race when i'm having a bet, so I'm not going to waste my time looking at 30 or 40 runners for a future event when only 6 of them might turn up on the day.

[mileni4uk]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? Playing antepost is the easiest way to make profits. The problem is getting on. It's not a scam, you just need to check Betfair and see if the price there is ridiculously high. Usually accurate in 99% of the cases if a horse is running or not.

[BillyHills]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? Weird Al, Diamond Harry and Time For Rupert can be backed for the Hennessy on Saturday, all trainers have stated they will not be running. Now who's fault is it if you think 20/1 about Daimond Harry is a good value price? Thats a lot different to thinking if its a good value bet. Obvioulsy it isnt but you cant call the bookies names if you back these horses without research and reading the freely available information that is out there.

[erhaab1965]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? If a bookmaker offer odds on a horse which clearly isn't going to run then surely they are scamming the public. I have noted on a few occassions over the years W Hills doing exactly this.They have been rather slow in remving withdrawn horses from their markets , whilst their competitors have already removed the horse in question. I would imagine this may be due to a rougue worker within the organisation rather than W Hills policy. After all if there is any betting news regarding a horse , the bookies would be one of the first to know , a lot sooner than the wider betting public. Taking bets on a withdrawn horse would be unethical in my book.

[Aidymac]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

If a bookmaker offer odds on a horse which clearly isn't going to run then surely they are scamming the public. I have noted on a few occassions over the years W Hills doing exactly this.They have been rather slow in remving withdrawn horses from their markets , whilst their competitors have already removed the horse in question. I would imagine this may be due to a rougue worker within the organisation rather than W Hills policy. After all if there is any betting news regarding a horse , the bookies would be one of the first to know , a lot sooner than the wider betting public. Taking bets on a withdrawn horse would be unethical in my book.

Erhaab, to be fair, you think everything is a scam!

[erhaab1965]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? As described by the OP , no scam appears to have taken place. You just need to be fully aware of what Ante Post betting entails and the pitfalls surrounding it. As for thinking everything is a scam , I find if you take that sort of approach you will have less dissappointments in life.

[Haystacks]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

Playing antepost is the easiest way to make profits. The problem is getting on. It's not a scam' date=' you just need to check Betfair and see if the price there is ridiculously high. Usually accurate in 99% of the cases if a horse is running or not.[/quote'] I agree with all of this except would qualify it by saying 'Playing antepost is the easiest way to make profits' for experienced punters (like yourself mileni). For inexperienced punters the antepost market is a real minefield and should probably be avoided altogether unless you are absolutely sure that you are going to get a run. Furthermore, sometimes you do find that the horse you backed A-P is actually available at longer odds after the final declarations. It all depends which other horses stand their ground. And again, predicting which rivals will comprise the final field is something that should probably be left to the experts. And if any half-decent horse is available ante-post at 100-1 or more, it's probably best just to draw a line through it as it almost certainly isn't going to run. If something looks too good to be true, it is too good to be true.

[Trotter]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? I agree that if a horse has been announced by the trainer as a non runner the bookies should take it out of their ante-post lists Or at least advertise it 'with a run' But then you get the New Approach scenario where the trainer said it was a unlikely runner in the Derby then it ran and won I suppose the odds must have drifted enormously after the trainers words but as it hadn't formally been taken out of the declarations they kept it in the list......and it's a case of caveat emptor if you still wanted to back it You've also got to be aware that many of the big races on the Flat (not sure about Jumps) have supplementary entry stages. You might be backing ante-post in ignorance of an unraced superstar who's going to be entered for the race at a supplementary stage It's all just too many ifs and buts for me...........I'd rather spend my time on horses that are definitely running today or tomorrow, where you know who they're running against and what current form they're in

[mileni4uk]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? There is a trend lately. Bookies offer very bad book on antepost markets and when there aren't many non-runners, the daily market on the day of the race gives you better prices. For example first three in Hennessy will definitely be available at higher prices this Saturday. So you have to be careful when you take the price. I don't mind non-runners, because the value compensates for it. Playing antepost is right. Especially for tipping purposes. For making "proper" profit it's a lot tougher, because I can never put as much as I like on the horse. Especially each-way.

[mileni4uk]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? Best pointer is Betfair like I said. Noble Prince was trading 40 50 60 for Paddy Power just week before the race. They said they are "probably coming over" and price got smashed, but he was never a runner. Lesson learned. Irish trainers coming for autumn races are the real scam :D For example Betfair tells you that in King George Wishful Thinking, Kauto Stone, Riverside Theatre, Weird Al, Nacarat aren't running.

[erhaab1965]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

I agree that if a horse has been announced by the trainer as a non runner the bookies should take it out of their ante-post lists Or at least advertise it 'with a run' But then you get the New Approach scenario where the trainer said it was a unlikely runner in the Derby then it ran and won

That reminds me of Binocular , Nicky Henderson said early in the new year that he was out for the season then days before the Champion Hurdle he is backed down eventually winning at somethng like 9/1. Kicking King also , went out to 999 on BF after being " out for the season " soon after winning the King George Chase before comming back to win the Cheltenham Gold Cup.

[Darran]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? Up to the punter to do the research with any bet they make. If you know a horse probably wont run but is offered at shortish odds that will affect the market when its removed then you are getting a better price on the other runners. I saw on Tuesday that one of the trainers had said their horse wouldnt run in the Betfair Chase so I straight away backed Kauto Star so I still had three places each/way. Unless the horse is dead or injured I done see why bookies shouldnt offer a price on a horse. Like I say its up to the punter to know whats going on as much as they can before they put the bet on. As for the original poster I have to say it all sounds a bit made up to me. Id like him to actually name the horse he backed. If your backing a horse at 500/1 for a race which is only a week or so away then that just smacks of stupidity on your part.

[erhaab1965]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

Up to the punter to do the research with any bet they make. If you know a horse probably wont run but is offered at shortish odds that will affect the market when its removed then you are getting a better price on the other runners. I saw on Tuesday that one of the trainers had said their horse wouldnt run in the Betfair Chase so I straight away backed Kauto Star so I still had three places each/way. Unless the horse is dead or injured I done see why bookies shouldnt offer a price on a horse. Like I say its up to the punter to know whats going on as much as they can before they put the bet on. As for the original poster I have to say it all sounds a bit made up to me. Id like him to actually name the horse he backed. If your backing a horse at 500/1 for a race which is only a week or so away then that just smacks of stupidity on your part.

Whilst all of us on here use computers to bet and research , there are millions who don't. It cannot be right that a pensioner in one of their retail outlets backs a horse ante post when odds are available yet the firm knows its not running. As for the OP , can you not give him the benefit of the doubt instead of saying it smacks of stupidity ? He does state that he has been punting for less than a year..

[mileni4uk]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

Whilst all of us on here use computers to bet and research ' date=' there are millions who don't. It cannot be right that a pensioner in one of their retail outlets backs a horse ante post when odds are available yet the firm knows its not running.[/quote'] So bookies should tell people not to back something, because it's not running? Did I read "pensioner"? :rollin Running or not, the antepost markets are like they are exactly for that. To be able to get value knowing few of the others might not run and are not suited by the race. The argument of bookies telling everything and removing horses from markets is ridiculous. It wouldn't be an antepost market. Everyone knew Rupert, Weird Al and Diamond Harry won't run in Hennessy, so the angle was backing Michel Le Bon, Wymott, Great Endeavour, 1833 or whatever at bigger prices before the Betfair chase. Only if the horse is declared non-runner by trainer or is injured then the horse should be removed. And that happens in the majority of the cases anyway.

[Aidymac]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

Whilst all of us on here use computers to bet and research , there are millions who don't. It cannot be right that a pensioner in one of their retail outlets backs a horse ante post when odds are available yet the firm knows its not running. As for the OP , can you not give him the benefit of the doubt instead of saying it smacks of stupidity ? He does state that he has been punting for less than a year..

If you are not able to research, then how can you be able to have a proper punt? Its like going for an interview, if you dont have a computer at home are you still going to go to that interview without getting sufficient information about the company? I dont think so, you will find out the information because it is vital that you do, same applies to ante-post betting, if you cant do your research, you stay away from it, or else your setting yourself up for a fall! I agree, the OP should not be branded stupid, but it was a daft bet to make, 40 quid is a lot of money to put on a 500/1 shot that isnt running, and its his own fault for not doing the research, you live and learn!

[fintron]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? I see the appeal of ante-post betting as you can get massive prices about horses that go off at a fraction of the odds on the day, but if you are a value punter, it shouldn't matter anyway. Whenever a tipster plunges the odds on one runner, it can often nudge prices out elsewhere and create value in other runners. Take Pekan Star in the November handicap. He was tipped up by so many people and betting previews that he halved in price in the space of a few days. That created plenty of value elsewhere on the day - the winner was 14/1 in the morning, and returned 8/1 (beating SP doesnt always mean you are getting value but SP is the end result of hours/days of shaping the market by the masses, when all information is exposed and has been acted upon so can at least serve a purpose for comparing with taken prices). I have played ante-post plenty of times this season, with mixed success. In the end I've concluded its probably not worth locking up stakes in long-term ante-post bets just to beat the post-dec prices, because you often don't know the draw and the ground, which can effect sprint handicaps in particular, to a large degree. There is also the risk that a horse can meet with a setback etc and if turns out a non-runner, you're done over. Taqleed anyone? To make a profit from racing you need to back prices, not horses, so if you miss the boat on a horse, there is likely going to be something else you can make a case for in the race. If nothing appeals in the race, move onto another. Ante-post punting does suit some punters I admit, but you need to be right on top of your game and keep abreast with all of the latest news, to do it effectively, something perhaps beyond a novice punter that has only been into the game for a year or too.

[Darran]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? Just re-read the post again and the OP doesnt even check the result of the race he just looks at his betting account balance. Who on earth does that? Surely you would want to know what won the race? Also I dont see the difference between a daft bet and a stupid bet, they are the same thing in my view. I think the OP needs to explain what happened more. Id love to know who was tipping up a 500/1 shot.

[fintron]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

I think the OP needs to explain what happened more. Id love to know who was tipping up a 500/1 shot.

Maybe a tipster had put an antepost pick up but, between the bet being advised and the final decs coming out, the horse picked up an injury or the trainer confirmed it was targeted at another race. The horse was then left in the betting but the layers on BF pushed its price right out. To a novice, it was still going for the race and was available at monstrous odds, but in reality it was layers out to target less informed punters who hadnt kept on top of the news and thought it was still running. Can't imagine many horses being advised at 500/1 on the day?

[Darran]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

Maybe a tipster had put an antepost pick up but, between the bet being advised and the final decs coming out, the horse picked up an injury or the trainer confirmed it was targeted at another race. The horse was then left in the betting but the layers on BF pushed its price right out. To a novice, it was still going for the race and was available at monstrous odds, but in reality it was layers out to target less informed punters who hadnt kept on top of the news and thought it was still running. Can't imagine many horses being advised at 500/1 on the day?

This is why Id love to know what horse it was and then we will know what the circumstances were. He is saying though that he backed it with a normal bookie and they wouldnt push a horse out to 500/1 they would just keep it the same price until it was confirmed a non-runner. Very few horses even go off at 500/1 and isnt the biggest SP of a winner only 250/1? Even someone who has only been betting for a year would realise this surely?

[TheRat]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? In short, ante-post betting is not a scam, no

[erhaab1965]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

This is why Id love to know what horse it was and then we will know what the circumstances were. He is saying though that he backed it with a normal bookie and they wouldnt push a horse out to 500/1 they would just keep it the same price until it was confirmed a non-runner. Very few horses even go off at 500/1 and isnt the biggest SP of a winner only 250/1? Even someone who has only been betting for a year would realise this surely?

Terimon nearly won the Derby at 500/1 for C Brittain , beaten only by the fantastic Nashwan back in the 80s.

[ONEDUNME]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? It's quite simple, don't bet in any antepost bet unless and until they advertise "non runner, money back". I would imagine that many thousands are lost on the Cheltenham festival alone with horses entered in three different races at a time and the few points that can be made by betting in advance are well outweighed by the fact that you will definitely know the going the day before the race AND you'll be able to take advantage of all the offers that the different bookies give on the day (money back for fallers, extra places for ew bets, money back if finishing second to a particular horse).

[mileni4uk]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

It's quite simple, don't bet in any antepost bet unless and until they advertise "non runner, money back". I would imagine that many thousands are lost on the Cheltenham festival alone with horses entered in three different races at a time and the few points that can be made by betting in advance are well outweighed by the fact that you will definitely know the going the day before the race AND you'll be able to take advantage of all the offers that the different bookies give on the day (money back for fallers, extra places for ew bets, money back if finishing second to a particular horse).

I used to think like you, but I realized this is the biggest scam of all. Getting 5th place or your money back if your horse is 2nd (or falls) is very rare. No point betting on the day under those offers if you can get a 2x price a week prior. If I still had active bookie accounts I'd definitely back antepost week or two prior instead of waiting for the race to come so I can get 5 places. The value ante-post is just immense. You can back blindly and still make profits just making sure your horse is geared towards the particular race.

[ONEDUNME]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

I used to think like you, but I realized this is the biggest scam of all. Getting 5th place or your money back if your horse is 2nd (or falls) is very rare. No point betting on the day under those offers if you can get a 2x price a week prior. If I still had active bookie accounts I'd definitely back antepost week or two prior instead of waiting for the race to come so I can get 5 places. The value ante-post is just immense. You can back blindly and still make profits just making sure your horse is geared towards the particular race.

Getting 2x the price a week prior is the reason that people do antepost betting. In the real word, how often does it happen? Hardly ever I'd suggest. You're dreaming. I'm quite willing to see you try to prove me wrong when the Cheltenham festival comes around.

The value ante-post is just immense. You can back blindly and still make profits just making sure your horse is geared towards the particular race.

Absolute tripe:lol

[mileni4uk]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? I do it every week, mate. Michel Le Bon tipped 14/1. Now 8s and 7s. Great Endeavour 14/1 last week, won at 8/1. Pateese 12/1, went off 9/2. That's just in the space of 2 weeks. This year's festival 2 spring to mind Junior 10/1, Sir Des Champs 9/1. Both won at 10/3 and 9/2. Al Ferof I have tipped 10/1 for Arkle and have averaged 13/1 on Betfair. 7s and 6s now. Will be 4s when he wins his next novice chase. It's so easy. The hard part is getting on, I have zero accounts. Using so many friends to get on, you wouldn't believe me if I tell you how many ;)

[mileni4uk]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? What I'm saying is 12/1 4 places EW is much better than 9/1 or 8/1 money back EW or 5 places EW. The win part is what makes the profit, not the returned stake or the place. Those are just savers.

[ONEDUNME]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam?

This year's festival 2 spring to mind Junior 10/1, Sir Des Champs 9/1. Both won at 10/3 and 9/2.

I'm not surprised that the gambles that have succeeded do spring to mind. It's so easy to forget the ones that have either ended up not running (and losing the money) or starting at a higher price. I've had a very very good look at the festival market over the last two years so I know what I'm talking about and, with the odd exception, you might get an extra point on your price two weeks before but you also have the risk of the ground going against your horse and a hundred other things that can go wrong. You might be surprised at the number of horses that run at a bigger price on the day than they have been two weeks before. Anyway, it's an interesting topic and I must admit to only being interested in the Cheltenham antepost so you and I can host a thread on the subject in Feb/ March if that's OK with you:ok

[mileni4uk]

Re: IS Ante-Post a scam? Mate, if I could get on at antepost prices, I'd be a millionaire in 5 years. It's that easy.