Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

[mowgli77]

I think this was mentioned in the Weekender last Wednesday but throughout the jumps season there seems to be a top class race to get excited about every weekend. We've just had the PP Gold Cup and then straight away we have the Haydock Chase, quickly followed by the Hennessy and the Tingle Creek and then in december we have the King George. When it's the flat season the top class races seem to be few and far between, many aimed specifically at the classics or Royal Ascot but we don't always get a quality top class race every weekend. Do you think the flat would be more exciting if Saturday afternoons saw more top class races or do you prefer it as it is? We often have so many good races through the week such as the Dante meeting, the Ebor meeting, Royal Ascot, Glorious Goodwood etc. Would top class races be better spread out over the season or would it not suit the flat calendar? I'd also like to see some decent Sunday cards. They seem to have group races every weekend in France yet we are often left with class 5 and class 6 trash. Enjoying the start of the jumps season and will probably miss a few of the away games at footy now and opt for the racing instead. :ok

[TheRat]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps There is usually top action most Sundays in Ireland though. I know that isn't much good if you don't live there for going but still. I think sometimes punters ignore the Irish stuff, but on a Sunday it is usually worth watching, plus plenty of other days of course! The thing with the jumps is you have 2 disciplines in Hurdles and Chases and similar amount if different distances too so I think there is more scope for bigger races on the Saturdays. Even so, during the flat season there is always a big race on a Saturday whever it be a group race or a big handicap. As you point out there are more 'festivals' during the flat season with loads of top races over several days where as everything really is leading to March for the jumps and as a result one off big races are easy to spread over the calender.

[bowles10]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps i think thats why i prefer the jumps these days, it really annoys me when the weather is poor and we lose decent weekend cards, that is the downside Not many years ago, there was even less weekend action with the Derby on a wednesday and no saturday Royal Ascot card The big races over the jumps are on saturdays and it is only the xmas cards and cheltenham that i can think of that doesnt take in a saturday on thier card the flat gets those 5f or 6f sprints sponsored by the bookies !!! THe weeks ahead are really good in terms of racing but i fear a poor winter ahead !!

[mileni4uk]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps And yet flat lovers come up with the argument that jump season is only geared towards Cheltenham and nothing in between :D

[erhaab1965]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps I much prefer the flat but I wish they would spread out the decent races rather than have them all during the festivals. As for the jumps , there doesn't seem to be as many decent races and its a shame quite a few get abandoned each year like the Welsh National and Great Yorkshire Chase and don't get rescheduled. As for the big weekend races , its the bookies who hype them up. Most weeks they will be ultra competitive handicaps , not Gr1/2 races.Each Tuesday for the rest of the season the bookies will issue a statement saying horse X,Y or Z has been gambled on in the hope mug money will follow.Whatever the big race is this comming saturday something "will be backed" tommorrow. The actual decent races tend to be uncompetitive and not big bettng races. Most likely the Betfair Chase and Tingle Creek comming up will have a hot favorite , 2 with a small chance and the rest no hopers.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

And yet flat lovers come up with the argument that jump season is only geared towards Cheltenham and nothing in between :D

Yes that is largely the case.

[mileni4uk]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

Yes that is largely the case.

To be fair I stopped reading at "ultra competitive handicaps". Just one thing, the Welsh National has never been abandoned except in 95-96. Was postponed last year and that's about it.

[jtw1]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps Really can't understand why we don't have more better class racing in the UK on Sundays . The only top class meeting i can think of is the 1000 guineas and other than that it's , as Mowgli has highlighted , low class fare . Every Sunday in France and Ireland there are Group races during the Flat season and top class NH racing in Ireland . The meetings that do take place over here on Sundays are generally very well attended so lets have some better racing for them to watch and bet on .

[fintron]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps It really does my head in how the bulk of quality racing is focussed on the weekends - in both flat and jumps codes - but I suppose it is to be expected considering that is when they are likely to get more punters through the gates and the TV companies can get more sponsorship money by screening races at these times. But how annoying is it for punters? On the flat you have crap racing on Mondays and Tuesdays at places like Folkestone, Yarmouth, Pontefract and Windsor, with only one or two good races if you are lucky. Then at the weekend you have a big Newmarket or Ascot, but also good racing at the Northern tracks. The problem then is that the good jockeys flock to the best meeting and if you want to back a Fahey one on a Northern track for exampe, you get the Hammer or Topliss on, not Hanagan. Jumps is the same, this midweek guff at Leicester and Folkestone is absolutely atrocious, how it interests anyone is beyond me. Small field rubbish that produces standout favourites and tactical racing because races are run at false paces. The only worthwhile racing for handicap fans is in the big weekend races like the greatwood and paddy power we had weekend. It means you spend very little time studying the form in the first half of the week then are up until the early hours of the morning on Saturday trying to get a handle on the form! Not suggesting things should or could change as I understand why the big races take place on a weekend, but some of this midweek garbage - both jumps and flat is depressing. When they do have a good field for a handicap they bloody split it into two and then instead of having one good race with 20 runners and juicy EW place terms, you are left with small odds in two smaller races.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

To be fair I stopped reading at "ultra competitive handicaps". Just one thing, the Welsh National has never been abandoned except in 95-96. Was postponed last year and that's about it.

The big races between now and Christmas ARE ultra competitive handicaps these are the ones the bookies love. The Tingle Creek will have a tiny field like most years you'll be lucky to bet EW 123. Yes the Welsh National was abandoned a few times in the 90s thats what I was talking about , also one race before or after those dates you mentioned it was run at some other track , can't remember where , if you can recall the race it was the one which Master Oats won by half the track , he went on to destroy the Cheltenham Gold field later in his career.

[Trotter]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps Don't know if I'm getting lazier or what but I prefer the small field midweek rubbish..............:lol I'm going off the AW a bit because nearly every race seems to be 12-14 runners I just can't be bothered studying races with more than about 8 or 9 runners and if I do pick a horse for the comps from those races i do it on minimal study and by fancy or flutter...............or just from background knowledge of following the sport A nice 5 or 6 runner race with a false favourite is what I look for.......... Being stuck at home nearly all the time I like the midweek racing - there's nothing else on so i watch it every day On saturdays there's so much racing, plus usually footy and so on that i end up making a chronological list of the races i want to watch and just flick to the approprite channel at 'off' time Don't know why we can't have more high class meetings on Sundays.......especially when we get two big meetings on a saturday, why not hold one back till Sunday ?

[mileni4uk]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

The big races between now and Christmas ARE ultra competitive handicaps these are the ones the bookies love. The Tingle Creek will have a tiny field like most years you'll be lucky to bet EW 123. Yes the Welsh National was abandoned a few times in the 90s thats what I was talking about , also one race before or after those dates you mentioned it was run at some other track , can't remember where , if you can recall the race it was the one which Master Oats won by half the track , he went on to destroy the Cheltenham Gold field later in his career.

So we need 16 runner Grade 1's then?

[Dtrains]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps However much us English would like to see top class racing on a Sunday, we cant keep on being so selfish and have to respect the European calender there are just not enough top class horses to go around, as "the rat" said there is usually top class racing in Ireland on sunday and England on saturday with some French thrown around to usually on Sunday so dont think we can be to selfish.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

So we need 16 runner Grade 1's then?

I am saying the bookies hype up mediocre races to line their own pockets.Before we reach the weekend there will be several "market movers". If some punters follow the money and the horse doesn't run the bookies will be laughing.

[Trotter]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

However much us English would like to see top class racing on a Sunday' date=' we cant keep on being so selfish and have to respect the European calender there are just not enough top class horses to go around, as "the rat" said there is usually top class racing in Ireland on sunday and England on saturday with some French thrown around to usually on Sunday so dont think we can be to selfish.[/quote'] I don't get that argument...........are you saying that horses that would have run in a french race on a sunday will now switch to an english race because it's on sunday and not the day before ?

[stewartd14]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

I am saying the bookies hype up mediocre races to line their own pockets.Before we reach the weekend there will be several "market movers". If some punters follow the money and the horse doesn't run the bookies will be laughing.

No more so than the flat, where due to the lack of top quality group races at the weekend, the main event is a handicap ....? Don't get this as an argument as it happens just as much on the flat.

[stewartd14]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

It really does my head in how the bulk of quality racing is focussed on the weekends - in both flat and jumps codes - but I suppose it is to be expected considering that is when they are likely to get more punters through the gates and the TV companies can get more sponsorship money by screening races at these times. But how annoying is it for punters? On the flat you have crap racing on Mondays and Tuesdays at places like Folkestone, Yarmouth, Pontefract and Windsor, with only one or two good races if you are lucky. Then at the weekend you have a big Newmarket or Ascot, but also good racing at the Northern tracks. The problem then is that the good jockeys flock to the best meeting and if you want to back a Fahey one on a Northern track for exampe, you get the Hammer or Topliss on, not Hanagan. Jumps is the same, this midweek guff at Leicester and Folkestone is absolutely atrocious, how it interests anyone is beyond me. Small field rubbish that produces standout favourites and tactical racing because races are run at false paces. The only worthwhile racing for handicap fans is in the big weekend races like the greatwood and paddy power we had weekend. It means you spend very little time studying the form in the first half of the week then are up until the early hours of the morning on Saturday trying to get a handle on the form! Not suggesting things should or could change as I understand why the big races take place on a weekend, but some of this midweek garbage - both jumps and flat is depressing. When they do have a good field for a handicap they bloody split it into two and then instead of having one good race with 20 runners and juicy EW place terms, you are left with small odds in two smaller races.

I can completely see where your coming from this, but considering racing is struggling to get people through the doors, I think they really need to look at getting more races at the weekend. Especially over jumps where there is no evening racing. Personally, I think some of the bigger festivals should run on to a Sunday as the Paddy Power meeting does. Will see bigger crowds through the door on a Sunday than a Thursday/Friday IMO. The midweek racing - this is where I think the best solution is to cut it to two meetings a day, which should result in more competitive races and hopefully stop the split races you elude to above. However, whether the racecourses would accept this would have to be the stalling point.

[Dtrains]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps No trotter i was saying we cant just create top class races and put them on a sunday fair enough if we switch a saturday to a sunday but i dont think new races should be created thus dilluting an already dilluted field

[Trotter]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

No trotter i was saying we cant just create top class races and put them on a sunday fair enough if we switch a saturday to a sunday but i dont think new races should be created thus dilluting an already dilluted field

Well, I agree with you there ! On the flat it's ridiculous the number of group one races - there's nearly one a week for Milers from mid season onwards. All the top horses can avoid each other and still win 2 or 3 group ones each But I still think they should switch some saturday meetings to Sunday - you get ridiculous days when, for example, Newmarket, newbury and haydock are all on saturday, all with some Listed or group races and big handicaps

[BillyHills]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps I think some are being a tad disrespectful to the Racing game and calandar in particular. We all want decent racing every day and I admit the diary is bewildering at times, when you get Chester, Haydock and York on the same day is nuts. Doesnt happen over the jumps too often though. What you have to look at is the wider picture, the whole basis racing exists and a handicap system works is because of the mundane meetings in the week, how else does a handicapper get to grips with horses, they start their career off in non descript novice hurdles or maidens on the flat and then progress up the ladder to novice handicaps or nurseries. Thats the first time a handicapper can assess these horses for the future and make up the 3yo+ races for the season ahead, all of the horses have to start somewhere and 90% of them are not pattern class animals. Where do horses like Notus De La Tour, Peddlers Cross, Menorah etc get experience of jumping fences.....its at Exeter or Plumpton on a wet Monday or Tuesday, very few kick off at Cheltenham or Aintree. I'm afraid as far as the flat season goes its all gone too corporate nowadays, take Newmarket for instance, their Friday night meetings make them fortunes and they have a band at the end of racing, went to one last year and you could hardly spot a racing enthusiast amongst the hen partys and stag do's, when i left after racing i was hounded by people in the car park wanting my ticket stub so they could get into the concert for free!!! Trouble is takes years to change the racing calendar and which courses are putting their hands up in the air begging for a wednesday afternoon fixture??

[Bathtime For Rupert]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps Off topic, but I was really impressed by Notus De La Tour. Barely touched a twig.

[mowgli77]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps

I think some are being a tad disrespectful to the Racing game and calandar in particular. We all want decent racing every day and I admit the diary is bewildering at times, when you get Chester, Haydock and York on the same day is nuts. Doesnt happen over the jumps too often though. What you have to look at is the wider picture, the whole basis racing exists and a handicap system works is because of the mundane meetings in the week, how else does a handicapper get to grips with horses, they start their career off in non descript novice hurdles or maidens on the flat and then progress up the ladder to novice handicaps or nurseries. Thats the first time a handicapper can assess these horses for the future and make up the 3yo+ races for the season ahead, all of the horses have to start somewhere and 90% of them are not pattern class animals. Where do horses like Notus De La Tour, Peddlers Cross, Menorah etc get experience of jumping fences.....its at Exeter or Plumpton on a wet Monday or Tuesday, very few kick off at Cheltenham or Aintree. I'm afraid as far as the flat season goes its all gone too corporate nowadays, take Newmarket for instance, their Friday night meetings make them fortunes and they have a band at the end of racing, went to one last year and you could hardly spot a racing enthusiast amongst the hen partys and stag do's, when i left after racing i was hounded by people in the car park wanting my ticket stub so they could get into the concert for free!!! Trouble is takes years to change the racing calendar and which courses are putting their hands up in the air begging for a wednesday afternoon fixture??

It's the dire class 6 and class 7 stuff that needs doing away with. There are some good class 4/class 5 handicaps and maidens sometimes midweek. I enjoy a Monday afternoon at Ponty when there is not much betting going on and you can often nick a decent price, opposing the fav's and it isn't mad busy. This year just gone there was either the 3 day Dante meeting or 4 day Ebor meeting at York followed by Ponty on the Sunday and I think there was another fairly local meeting (Ripon or Redcar). Attendance for the Dante meeting is fairly poor yet on John Smiths day on a Saturday in July they pull in 42,000 crowds. The whole fixture booking needs a good look at, seems to be all or nothing some weekends. I think each fixture should have a decent "feature race" that is well promoted as a selling point and the courses should do more offers such as 1/2 price entry on your next visit to get the punters back that might be visiting 1st time. Should also have a separate pen type area for the stags/hens. :lol I know traditionalists wouldn't like it but a 3 day Dante meeting over Friday/Saturday/Sunday would probably double crowds for each day. Wouldn't matter to me as I take the time off anyway but in terms of bringing money into racing it would be a positive move.

[bowles10]

Re: Saturday Afternoons - Flat V Jumps read through some of the posts and i think we have to have different types of races, take football for example, league 2 down to the premier league, it is all about quality, the same goes for racing. Mondays are well known for poor racing especially over the jumps after decent weekend cards. Take the 2yo's that do well during the season, most start at a Windsor early seaosn meeting or introduced at Yarmouth (as thats close to newmarket), the flat also has a number of top tracks, Sandown, Newbury Ascot, York, Haydock, Doncaster, Chester, Newmarket. A number of these race midweek which improves the midweek fayre. In terms of moving cards to weekends, you could move the Craven meeting, the Chester May meeting, The york Dante meeting etc etc however the good thing about these meetings is that they are midweek ensuring better cards As BH said, horses have to start somewhere and we have to have class 5 down to class 1 handicap system, i love watching horses compete at Windsor in class 5 hcaps then moving up to class 4 etc during the season. For me thats part of racing we need to keep Those that mentioned the tingle creek etc up and coming, yes its normally a small field and often raced on soft/heavy but its a quality 2m chase with horses aimed for the Queen Mother etc. The sight of Master Minded, Viking Flagship, Twist Magic, Moscow flyer in this race has always been a highlight and it is competitive, you only need to check the winning SP's. The Kempton xmas meeting, the Chepstow Welsh National, the Racing post chase mtg at Kempton, the totesport trophy day at Newbury includes the Aon chase, loads of decent weekend action on the jumps which doesnt need changing as these meetings are well attended.