[Antepost bets & Discussion - Jump Season 2012/13]

Re: Antepost bets & Discussion - Jump Season 2012/13 I'm convinced Kid Cassidy is going to win the Grand Annual this year. He was so clearly a non trier on both his last two starts and I challenge everyone to watch both of those races and tell me otherwise. Never placed to challenge on either occasion, and only "niggled" when it was too late to win the race. But the stewards won't ever dare say anything because of the connections. The horse ran way to freely in the race last year and the one thing we have learnt in his last 2 races is now the hose can settle. Hopefully there will be another JP talking horse in the race and Kid Cassidy will be available at a decent price - that is until JP McManus has his money on of course!

[Cheltenham Ante Post Competition Results]

Re: Cheltenham Ante Post Competition ~ Entries in by Midnight Friday 16th November RSA Chase - Broadbackbob £25 each way @ 33/1 Bet365 PaddyPower Nicky Henderson has a wealth of young chasers and the word is Broadbackbob is schooling amazingly at home. Somewhat fortuitous in his first race over hurdles at Ascot, beating an unlucky Cinders and Ashes by 1 length - although that's hardly a bad line of form. Nicky admitted after the race he should have put Simonsig in that race and that Broadbackbob would improve for a trip. The horse then destroyed a weak field in Newbury before disappointing at Cheltenham when finishing second to Batonier. The horse wasn't right we he arrived home and didn't recover in time to run in the 3 mile hurdle at Cheltenham - the race he had been aimed at all season. This year the horse will go for the RSA and at this stage he's Nicky's no.1 horse for this race. Tom Symonds, speaking at the Cheltenham preview evening yesterday, was bullish about this horses chances in the race and even if he doesn't live up to the hype he is bound to be much shorter than 33's on the day. Also wouldn't put anyone off backing Finian's Rainbow for the Gold Cup. The horse goes to Kempton on boxing day and if he wins he'll run in the Gold Cup. If he doesn't stay he takes on his stalemate in the Champion Chase. Whether he'll stay is anyone's guess, but connections have totally ruled out a run in the Ryanair, so again 33's could be a decent bet.

[Independent bookmaker - where do I stand?]

Yesterday I placed a bet at my local bookmakers on a horse called Saharia in the 21:00 at Kempton. The bet was placed about 10 minutes before the off at 33/1 and the stake was £100. The young cashier (who didn't look old enough to be in a bookmakers, yet alone taking bets) took the bet with no questions asked. I was expecting the horse to run well but I must admit I surprised when the horse hacked up. I went to collect my winnings, or at least agree a time to collect the winnings (the shop policy is anything above £400 can take up to 48 hours), and to my horror the young lad serving told me there'd been an error and he'd "accidentally" processed the bet as £1.00 instead of £100 (my theory is he thought the horse had no chance and planned to pocket the £99!). The manager wasn't working at the time so he returned my slip and told me to come back today. I went back to the shop after work today and was told if the bet was entered into the system as £100 the bet would've been denied because the liability was too big for a class 6 on the polytrack. He said as a goodwill gesture they will pay me out based on a £20 stake and refund the other £80. For now I've kept hold of the betting receipt. Where do I stand legally. The slip says £100 on it, does that mean I'm entitled to the full return of £3400? Is it worth pursuing, or should I just accept it was a mistake and bet elsewhere in the future?

[First run under new trainer]

Re: First run under new trainer Capricornus looks interesting making his first run for Tim Vaughan this evening in the 18:35 at Wetherby. He was previously with Ferdy Murphy who's been in dire form all year so I imagine the horse's handicap mark is winnable. Tim Vaughan's got a good record first time out and always has his horses fully fit so I imagine 9/2 could be a decent price.

[Key Race : The Oaks Friday 1st June]

Re: Key Race : The Oaks Friday 1st June Second time this season John Magnier has invited JP McManus to a Classic and landed gamble on a supposedly unfancied horse. There was a large bet on Homecoming Queen before she won the Guineas and now Was. We saw it at Cheltneham as well with a couple of McManus' owned horse. They get the public talking/punting one of their horses with top claims on all known form, when really they've got another horse lined up for the race that hasn't yet been allowed to show it's best form at a racecourse. Very clever really.

[Key Race - Scottish Grand National]

Re: Key Race - Scottish Grand National I quite like Abbeybraney at 40-1 with the sponsors. He just missed out on the Grand National but looks well treated to run a nice race in this off a low weight. At 11 years of age he's had fair experience over fences and jumped well when finishing 6 lengths third to Master of the Hall in his prep race at Kelso. He was rated 142 when trained by Howard Johnson so is certainly well in off that mark. He's ran two nice races for his new trainer G Bewley and I think over a longer trip when fully would up he will give an even better showing. I suspect Ryan Mania will pilot and he's a very talented young jockey who has proved profitable to follow this season. 40's could look big on the day.

[Key Race: The Lincoln Handicap Sat 31st March - Doncaster]

Re: Key Race: THE LINCOLN HANDICAP SAT 31st MARCH - DONCASTER

I'm not really into the flat, but I got speaking to somebody at Cheltenham about racing and it turns out he's the owner of a horse call Mull Of Killough. He got me to make a note of the name of the horse and said it had been aimed at this race. He was very, very keen on the chances of the horse. They were going to give it a prep run before the race, but they believe it has a nice handicap mark so instead decided to give him a racecourse gallop around Wolverhampton. Ladbrokes are offering 25/1. I'm not sure how this horse compares with the trends of previous winners but he's probably a horse to consider.

Gutted lost by a short head. Went each way so still got 1/4 of the 25/1 but it could have been so much better. I think he was probably the best horse on the day but just got going a fraction too late. Ah well... that the flat for you.

[Key Race: The Lincoln Handicap Sat 31st March - Doncaster]

Re: Key Race: THE LINCOLN HANDICAP SAT 31st MARCH - DONCASTER I'm not really into the flat, but I got speaking to somebody at Cheltenham about racing and it turns out he's the owner of a horse call Mull Of Killough. He got me to make a note of the name of the horse and said it had been aimed at this race. He was very, very keen on the chances of the horse. They were going to give it a prep run before the race, but they believe it has a nice handicap mark so instead decided to give him a racecourse gallop around Wolverhampton. Ladbrokes are offering 25/1. I'm not sure how this horse compares with the trends of previous winners but he's probably a horse to consider.

[Synchronised ~ Would you run him in the National?]

Re: Synchronised ~ Would you run him in the National? I doubt Synchronised will get over the Gold Cup in time to run in the National. Didn't it take him longer than Jonjo hoped to get over the Lexus? I'm pretty sure they initially planned to give him another prep run for the Gold Cup but he wasn't ready in time. It will be near impossible to get Sycn 100% after a race as hard as the Gold Cup in only a month. I also think JP has got a better handicapped horse in Sunnyhillboy who will have a nice weight of 10-6 if Sync doesn't run. I'd imagine McCoy could do that weight at a push and that horse for me has a much more live chance of getting over his race in time for the National. That horse also appears to stay all day, jumps well enough and like gd/sft ground, so that would be the one for me.

[The Cheltenham Bankers]

Re: The Cheltenham Bankers I've just come back from the official Cheltenham preview night and the one 'banker' the SportingBet rep thinks the bookies will be very keen to get beaten is Big Bucks. There's no pace in the race and unless Big Bucks makes the running it's thought that Mullins will look to have the race run in a way that will suit Thousand Stars. This could mean having Mourad or So Young making the "running" (although walking would probably be a more appropriate word) for the first couple of miles before sprinting the last. This would be very similar to the race when Thousand Stars won the French Champion hurdle over 3m 2f and would surely suit the the Mullins mount and Oscars Whisky. SportingBet were taking Big Bucks on offering evens tonight at the preview and seem to think he could trade a similar price on the morning of the race. They were also keen to take on Sprinter Sacre in the Arkle pointing out the favorites poor record in the race, saying SS wanted a flat track and wouldn't find a great deal if he got into a battle, and another interesting trend that no horse that has finished in the first three in the Supreme Novices in the last 14 years has gone on to win in the festival next year (although that seems more a coincidence to me!). The one they didn't want to take on was Long Run. Ruby made all at Haydock and Kempton and ran the race to suit his mount. With Midnight Chase, Quel Esprit and The Giant Bolster. Kauto's not going to get his own way at Cheltenham and a truly run race at Cheltenham over the extra couple of furlongs will only suit Long Run. Nothing on any known form will beat Long Run (barring accidents).

[Ante Post Jumps Thread 2011-2012]

Re: Ante Post Jumps Thread 2011-2012 There's an interesting form line through I'm so Lucky which suggests Al Ferof and Spinter Sacre are fairly closely matched based on what we've seen so far. AL Ferof finished 14 lengths ahead of I'm so Lucky in the Victor Chandler off level weights and Spinter Sacre was 9 lengths in front of I'm So Lucky carrying and extra 5 lbs (=14 lengths). The Pipe horse is a very consistent sort so I'd imagine that form is a solid benchmark. Of course then you need to consider that SS was still on the bridle and ask yourself how much more he'd have found if asked. That's debatable but I personally believe that SS is a horse that won't find a great deal when asked (although the breathing op may have solved that). So based on what we've seen so far SS is probably a few pounds ahead. However, I think 2 miles at Cheltenham will certainly play to the strengths of Al Ferof more than SS and Al Ferof always seems to run his best races in March at Cheltenham, so it could go either way on the day (imo). From a betting perspective I always try to take on the hype horses at Cheltenham (especially novices!!!) so if there's 11/2 available about Al Ferof on the day I'll certainly be getting stuck in.

[Jumps racing - Friday 17th Feb]

Re: Jumps racing - Friday 17th Feb bowles10, I don't post here often but I read these forums daily and really respect your opinion and tipping, however I don't understand how being a course winner can be viewed as a negative? It doesn't make any logical sense. From the 13 runners in your trends sample, only 4 of the runners had previously at Newbury. 2 of those were course and distance winners and the other 2 both finished second over the course and distance in competitive handicaps. Surely that's a positive if anything?

[Ante Post Jumps Thread 2011-2012]

Re: Ante Post Jumps Thread 2011-2012 The Betfair Hurdle is shaping up to be a very fascinating race (fingers crossed it goes ahead!), however from a betting perspective I'm not convinced I'd want to be getting heavily involved. I think once again this season we may see another Saturday 2m handicap with a large field yet no pace. 80% of the horses entered are hold up horses with only a handful of horses that like to be prominent and only 1 front runner I note: Marsh Warbler. Last time this animal had his own way in front was in The Ladbroke and that day many fancied horses pulled hard and didn't perform as they were capable of. Marsh Warbler finished a close fifth that day and I'd be surprised if his connections would go any faster in the Betfair if condition were similar. Personally, I couldn't be on Zarkander at 10/3. He will have no doubt improved from his Triumph with last March and it's hard to see him not finishing in the placings, but in a handicap this competitive and with potentially no pace he will have to be close to 100% to win this. Of course he could hack up, but many of these good things have been beaten in the past and at the price I'd be in no rush to back him. I also think Darlan represents awful value at at low as 13/2 in places! He runs off a mark of 146 (which the bha have since adjusted to 143), but personally I think his 136 racing post rating is a more accurate indication of what he has achieved so far. He had to fight hard to beat 120 rated High Storm by a nose at Cheltenham and even his race after when beating Jump City comfortably doesn't look great as that horse tailed off in a handicap next time out. He'd have to improve 10lbs just to run to his mark and then probably a further 10lbs to win the race. Can he improve 20lbs in a month? I don't think even Henderson is capable of that. However, Henderson's other runner Soldatino is interesting. He looks as if he's been lay out for this race for some time and as it's been almost a year since he was last seen. He will no doubt have improved since then. He was only 2 lengths behind Recession Proof in this race last year and runs off the same mark this time. Henderson will no doubt have him 100% and with Geraghty likely to be onboard you'd expect a good run. 20/1 on the exchanges looks quite a nice price. Another horse that looks to have a very strong chance is Raya Star who won lto in The Ladbroke. The race wasn't run to suit and he will improve when running in a properly run race. However, I'm not convinced he'll get that in the on Saturday Betfair so he's one I'll keep in the notebook for another day. The horse who finished ahead of him in his previous race is the relatively unexposed Empire Levant who also appears to have place claims. He is, however, the stables second choice which is clearly a negative when trying to pick a winner and with Daryl taking over from Harry Derham he's effectively carrying 19lbs more than he did when second to Rock on Ruby last time. I think that will be hard to defy. The final two horses on my shortlist are Olofi and THIRD INTENTION. These two horse make the most appeal to me from a betting perspective. Both ran good races in the Greatwood hurdle, with the former finishing finishing stronger than any other horse and the latter going the strongest with 2 furlongs to go and then hitting the last hurdle and not finding a great deal. Olofi was strongly fancied at Newbury last time and was traveling powerfully when he fell 3 out. Looking back at replays I think as soon as Brennan had asked the question he'd have drawn clear and won easily. That doesn't look the strongest race, but the horse is no doubt ahead of the handicapper at present and it would be no surprise to see him win. Third Intention also ran a good race after when second to Ranjaan off top weight. Ranjaan looked thrown in at the weights that day and the pair were 11 lengths clear of the next horse so that could turn out to be very good form. Tizzards mount posted his highest RPR (151) that day and his official rating will go up 4 to 146 after the Betfair Hurdle. It's also worth pointing out that the ground was softer than Third Intention would've liked that day and he was getting pushed along after the 6th before coming back onto the bridle later. If the horse travels as he did at Chetenham and still has something to give at the end he stands a fantastic chance. 16/1 looks a generous price.

[1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds It's easy to see why bookies aren't laying 4 places or 1/4 odds in maidens and novice events especially those with short priced horses. Due to the nature of the race you're going to get very different classes of horse and in a 20 runner maiden there's often probably 10 horses you can rule out. In this scenario and when there's an odds on favorite if a bookmaker was offering 4 places it would be easy to manipulate your e/w stakes in a way that guarantees long term profit. However, in a competitive novice event for example at the Cheltenham festival you will often get enhanced place terms such as 1/4 odds, 1/3 odds and occasionally even 4 places in a very competitive race with a big field and no strong favorite. I remember in October this year at Cheltenham one on course bookmaker was offering 2 places 1/5 odds in a 4 runner novice chase! Then evens favorite and 5/1 3f both fell and I'm sure many punters took advantage of these stand out place terms and were delighted to see the 20/1 outsider finished second!

[Ante Post Jumps Thread 2011-2012]

Re: Ante Post Jumps Thread 2011-2012 Cinders and Ashes represents good each way value. Donald McCain's made it clear in his BF column he thinks a lot of the horse and everything he's done so far has been very impressive. I think his second to Broadbackbob on his first run over hurdles is probably some of the best form we've seen this season considering he was badly hampered halfway through losing at least 8 lengths and momentum. I think he was awarded a RPR of around 145 despite things not going his way in play that day. His second race when comfortably reversing the bumper form with Keys was also very impressive (120 rated Ile De Re was 30 lengths back in third that day). I wouldn't put anybody off backing Cinders at 20/1 because you know you're going to get a good run from a horse that's been well prepared by a top trainer and a very capable jockey on board in Jason Maguire. On the other hand if you were to back a Henderson runner at this stage you can't be sure what jockey you'll have onboard (unless you're backing Darlan) or even if you'll get a run out of your money. I'm also very keep to be on Spirit Son in the CH and I think 7/1 NRNB is decent value.

[The 2011 King George - Boxing Day]

Re: The 2011 King George - Boxing Day Diamond Harry non-runner. That means only 2 places now. Long Run cut to a best price 5/4 and Kauto cut to 3/1. That is everywhere except for PP who reacted to the withdrawal by laying Long Run at 6/4 and Kauto at 7/2. Madness! Get on now because it won't be around for long.

[The 2011 King George - Boxing Day]

Re: The 2011 King George - Boxing Day I'm in agreement with mowgli77 that the trip won't be an issue for Captain Chris. His pedigree suggests he'll stay 3M+ and there's nothing I've seen from the horse so far that suggests he won't get the trip. If anything I think he'll improve for the longer trip because he always seems full of running at the end of the race. He finished a 1/2 length second to Medermit in a novice chase at Sandown over 2M5F last season and was closing on winner right up to the line. The only reason he didn't win that day was for some awful jumping mistakes at the start. In the build up to the race people have been quick enough to point out Long Run's jumping issues but for me Captain Chris' lack of fluency at fences is a bigger problem and if he's hitting every other fence in a race like the King George he'll be found out. The other thing that puts me off backing him is his less than perfect preparation with him missing races due to this "horse flu" he's had. I think the animal will run into a place but I don't think he'll be good enough on the day to beat Long Run. Another horse I think has good place claims is Somersby. He's another horse that's been crying out for a step up in trip and whilst he won't improve more than a couple of lbs that should be enough imo to get a place. I don't think Master Minded will stay (especially if he's ridden prominently as Daryl has claimed he will be) and I've got a lot of doubts about Kauto. Kauto Star clearly still has a lot of ability but Haydock was his Gold Cup and the King George was an after thought. The Betfair chase will have taken a lot out of him and I would be very surprised if he could match (or come close) to that performance. After last years Gold Cup Kauto went to Punchestowns and was pulled up. Even in 2008 after his Gold Cup win Kauto was beaten a month later at Aintree. Paul Nicholls said last summer he wouldn't run a horse again in the same season after a Gold Cup in the future. By running Kauto a month after "his Gold Cup" I think he's effectively doing that and I think he may regret it. There's nothing that would please me more than seeing Kauto win the King George again and I really hope Nicholls can prove me wrong but as short as 3-1 I'm happy to take him on. I can't see Diamond Harry, Golan Way or Nacarat being anywhere near good enough but I'm glad there in the race because there all horses that will be prominent and will ensure there's a truly run race. I think at 11/8 even with his jumping problems Long Run is good value and Somersby at 10/1 with SportingBet in the market without the favorite is also good value imo.

[The Handicapper]

Re: The Handicapper

Handicapper can't take that into account. If he does it' date=' he should be sacked :lol[/quote'] Harry Derham is a 7lb claimer but was unavailable to claim in the race. Therefore, the horse is arguably 7lb worse off than the winner. The handicapper judges 1lb to be worth 1 length so had Harry been able to claim Brampour would've arguably finished 2 and 3/4 lengths ahead of Grandouet. I say arguably but I believe Grandouet would've found more if he needed to. I also believe Harry rides much better than a 7lb claimer and had Ruby been in board I doubt very much Brampour would be anywhere near 7 lengths better off. But saying that the handicapper can only only use the figures in front of him which I suppose is the reason for the rise in weight.

[Cheltenham Nov Meeting (Fri 11th- Sun 13th)]

Re: Cheltenham Nov Meeting (Fri 11th- Sun 13th) Providing the going is good, it's looking likely that Andy Stewart will not run Poquelin as he also has Nomecheki who is currently 5lb's out of the handicap. If Poquelin is taken out this will mean Nomecheki will run off his proper mark. I hope this does happen because it will mean 9 other horses will also be able to run off their true mark making a more competitive race. Out of these horses, I think the value lies with Nicky Richards' entry, NOBLE ALAN. The 8 year old is still relatively unexposed over this trip and if the ground remains on the fast side of good it'll definitely suit him. Noble Alan's raced twice in handicaps over 2 and a half miles and has been unlucky on both occasions. He first caught my eye in December last year he was stepped up to 2m5f for the first time when racing in the December Grade 3 handicap at Cheltenham. That day he was held up towards the rear before making significant headway and disputed close up 4th and had every chance when falling 3 out. That was off a mark of 143. His two appearances following that he stepped back in trip to 16 furlongs and on both occasions he was outpaced making late headway but never getting close enough to make a strong challenge. Last time out he raced in a listed handicap chase at Market Rasen over 2m6f. Similarly to his race at Cheltenham he was help up in rear and made significant headway and was cantering having just taken the lead when Brian Harding unseated 2 out. There is no doubt in my mind he would have won comfortably that day had he not made the mistake (in fact the lose horse did stay on and was first past the post even without the motivation of his jockey!). Having been put up 2lb's for that performance he will run off 142 on Saturday (1lb lower than at Cheltenham last December) and for a horse that looks to me as if it is still improving I think he could be very well handicapped. He's still 20/1 in places which to me looks like very good value (especially if Poquelin doesn't run).

[Jump Racing 22/10]

Re: Jump Racing 22/10 13:35 Chepstow - Marsh Lane 100/1 BoyleSports e/w This is a rather tentative selection but nevertheless at 100/1 unmissable value in my opinion. Marsh lane started his first race over hurdles as a 200/1 chance and finished 5th a length in front of Pliny (a 110 rated hurdler). Marsh Lane also finished the race 10 lengths ahead of O'Neil's horse It's an Eagle who finished 4th in his last race in front of today's second favorite Saint Luke. March Lane appreciated the increase in trip last time out and over 3 miles today could go even better. The race looks like a weak class 5 maiden hurdle with the only exception being the Nicholls horse. But Nicholls horses aren't flying atm and a few of his horses are looking unfit. There is a few unknown horses in this race but at 100/1 each way with 3 places it's worth a small punt.

[BBOTD 11th of September]

Re: BBOTD 11th of September Hi guys, I'm new to this competition so please let me know if there's anything wrong. 16.05 Listowel Kalico Kim - 1pt win @ 14/1 StanJames Since moving to Gerard Ryan's yard this horse has been in good form winning twice from 5 runs and running well in his last 2 starts. Last time out she ran in the Galway festival finishing only 8 lengths away from the winner despite being a massive 22 pounds out of the handicap that day. A similar performance today should see the mare win or come very close in this considerable drop in class. She's the trainer and jockeys only run of the day and looks amazing value at 14/1. I wouldn't be surprised to see the SP something like 8/1. The only concern today would be the soft ground, however the trip should suit.

[9:00 Uttoxeter]

Re: 9:00 Uttoxeter To move from 5/1 this morning to evens in places now suggests there must have been some serious money come in for the horse throughout the day. Betfred, Totesport and Boylesports have suspended the market. The horse fits the normal specifications of a Curley betting coup it hasn't run since February it's come down in the ratings a lot and it is racing in the lowest of classes. I wouldn't be at all surprised to read in the racing post tomorrow morning that Barney's made another fortune but personally it'll be a race I avoid betting in.

[French Champion Hurdle]

Re: French Champion Hurdle

According to the RP site its on ATR as well, would be nice if c4 decided to show it too. You should be able to bet on the PMU rather than take the price if thats what you want its just the same as betting on the Arc. How on earth can anyone possibly back Chaninbar given his dreadful record of starting races? Grand Crus does seem to have a lot in his favour but this surely has been an after thought and its hard to tell if he will be at his best tomorrow.

Paddy Power are offering PMU on all the French races except the big one. They've got all the British/Irish horses at very low prices for the Champions Hurdle. However, if anybody wants to back a French horses then Paddy is the place to bet because they're laying at big prices. The best place to get on Grands Crus seems to be the exchanges. Grand Crus is 5/2 on Betfair currently. As for Chaninbar his refusal to start races isn't ideal prep, however it will certainly drive up his price. When he has raced he's shown he's still got plenty of ability. Recently he finished second in a grade 2 hurdle just behind French Opera and in front of Oiseau de Nuit and Tataniano. He also stayed on very strongly in the Swinton Hurdle. He was reluctant to start and quickly 20 lengths behind the leader and being driven along, but he stayed on and finished 6 lengths off second. The upgrade in trip will suit him and news from the stable is he's training better than he ever has before. The soft ground will suit him as will the upgrade in trip. The stable obviously think he has a chance or they wouldn't have made the travel overseas and at big prices I'm willing to take a chance that he'll start the race.

[French Champion Hurdle]

Re: French Champion Hurdle Thanks guys. I sent an email to RacingUK and they've got the rights for it. They said there's a busy schedule but if it clashes with another race they'll show a full repeat shortly after. As for price, Grands Crus is at 2/1 with Blue Sq. Thousand Stars is 7/1 and and Mourad 12/1. Personally, having looked at the competition, I'm tempted to lump on Grands Crus. His main rival's Roi Du Val. Thousand Stars has place chances if he can stay the 3 miles (I personally think he can). Does anyone know if French industry SP will be the same as British SP? If it is I'm tempted to get on at SP and hope the French don't know quite how good Grands Crus is. EDIT: I'm also gonna be all over Chaninbar E/W in the prior race at what possibly could be a huge price.

[French Champion Hurdle]

This Saturday Grands Crus, Thousand Stars and Mourad will run at Auteuil in the Grande Course de Haies d'Auteuil over 3 miles 1 and a half furlongs. I don't usually watch horse racing outside the UK and Ireland but this race looks interesting. Does anybody know if I'll be able to watch this race from the comfort of my sofa on RacingUK or ATR, or will I have to visit the local betting shop? Also, does anybody know whether I'll be able to bet on this race on an online sportsbook from WillHill, Ladbrokes, Paddy, etc?